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The GOUT Sync Thread — Page 6

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hairy_hen said:
Overall this is more about correcting existing sync problems, by using the more reliable reference which is now available.

Do you plan to sync your mixes to both the GOUT and frame-complete releases such as 4k83, or are you going to pick one?

I’m currently beginning the tedious process of converting the frame numbers for the reels into timecode that I can see in my audio editor, so once I’ve done that I’ll know exactly how the sync of Jedi is supposed to work.

Is there no way you can automate the conversion? At worst, you can read off the frame-numbers in VirtualDub/AviSynth.

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Could someone post a step-by-step manual how to easily convert GOUT-audio for use with 4K83? I’ve got the German dubbing from the Despecialiced Edition and would like to mux it with 4K83.

“I want to watch Empire on my refrigerator’s LCD screen but listen to the Austrailan audio thru my USB phonograph setup and it worked on the other two movies” -yoda-sama

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Re: German dubs. Short story: No adjustment is necessary.

Long story: I’m not actually sure of the origin of the German dub on DeEd. If it’s from my collection, it’s actually synced to the PAL GOUT, so it will be missing one frame of audio from 4k83 and will technically be more closely synced to 4k83 than it ever was to the DeEd. If it’s from elsewhere, it may be synced to the NTSC GOUT and be missing two frames of audio. The audio from my collection has the German loudspeaker announcements when they’re walking to the elevators with Chewie pretending to be a prisoner, the others tend not to. Also, my track does NOT feature any scored music during the trash compactor scene, while the THX remaster and some reconstructions do. Regardless of the version you have, none of these options would present a difference large enough to notice, so would not require any change to work seamlessly with 4k83.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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CatBus said:

Re: German dubs. Short story: No adjustment is necessary.

I hoped so and muxed the file with 4K83. But while it seamlessly syncs with ROTJ DE 2.5 there is is a noticeable asynchronicity in 4K83. It’s for example quite obvious in the scene where Leia tells Han that Luke is her brother. But if you are sure that there shouldn’t be a noticeable delay, then maybe I should just try it again.

“I want to watch Empire on my refrigerator’s LCD screen but listen to the Austrailan audio thru my USB phonograph setup and it worked on the other two movies” -yoda-sama

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I think the fact that you noticed a delay should prove that resyncing is required, whether it “should” or not.

Besides, even if lip sync isn’t as crucial in dubs, isn’t there still the issue of SFX/foley sync, which would need to be every bit as correct as the native language tracks?

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I used the 4K83 ROTJ 1080p version to create a Blu-Ray, adding a couple of gout sync Spanish castillian dubs I have (One from the 2006 DVD, included in many preservation projects in this group, and the other from the 1995 Laser Disc, the one wich has the intro narrated) and both sync ok. The were no troubles with the 2 extra frames of the 4K83 ROTJ version. I used “tsmuxer” for it.

He’s no good to me dead

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Discostu said:

CatBus said:

Re: German dubs. Short story: No adjustment is necessary.

I hoped so and muxed the file with 4K83. But while it seamlessly syncs with ROTJ DE 2.5 there is is a noticeable asynchronicity in 4K83. It’s for example quite obvious in the scene where Leia tells Han that Luke is her brother. But if you are sure that there shouldn’t be a noticeable delay, then maybe I should just try it again.

I’ll take a look at my own copy (which may not be the same dub used by DeEd). It could be that the copy with DeEd 2.5 was not synced well the NTSC GOUT, so has a more-than-two frame difference at that point. However, there are sync issues on and off throughout all dubs, unrelated to frame issues. If it were related to the frame difference, you’d see it at every point past Luke’s last scene on Dagobah. If it’s specific to that scene, it sounds like a dub-sync issue (which may very well have sounded better a couple frames off, as this happens with dubs).

ChainsawAsh said:

I think the fact that you noticed a delay should prove that resyncing is required, whether it “should” or not.

Some dub resyncs are not possible because the sync of the dubbed dialogue is different than the sync of the underlying soundtrack. It’s unfortunate but true. You can sync “I’m sure he wasn’t on that thing when it blew” perfectly, and “He’s my brother” is off, and vice-versa. Or you sync to the soundtrack and maybe they’re both off!

Besides, even if lip sync isn’t as crucial in dubs, isn’t there still the issue of SFX/foley sync, which would need to be every bit as correct as the native language tracks?

They do need to be every bit as correct, but AFAICT there’s no point where a two-frame sync issue is noticeable in any of the three films, except in English dialogue. Specifically, except in Harrison Ford’s delivery of the English dialogue. Carrie Fisher can stand being two frames off. It’s that specific.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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ChainsawAsh said:

Really? That’s weird. Huh.

Well, that’s my perception of it. There may be people more sensitive to the issue than me, but most people don’t notice it at all.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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Oh, I get that. I never noticed the sync issue in ROTJ v1.0 myself. It just seems odd to me that it would be noticed more with a particular actor than the others - you’d think it’d be across the board.

Not saying you’re wrong (or that anyone who noticed it as a problem is, either), it’s just something that’s tough to wrap my brain around!

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Two things–

First, Harrison Ford moves his mouth a lot, and quickly. Carrie Fisher on the other hand, speaks quickly without nearly as much mouth movement. Ian McDiarmid moves his mouth a lot too, but slowly. And other people wear plastic masks 😉 So it makes a little sense that maybe Ford would be the first place you’d spot a small sync issue.

Secondly, I stand corrected, Discostu is right. The German dub matches English lip movements way closer than other dubs, and as a result, a small sync difference of two frames is noticeable, and not just at the “He’s my brother” scene. They’d never notice it in Thai because lip matching is pretty haphazard there. I think part of this may be due to the Krieg der Sterne team assembling a top-quality sync from several imperfect sources, but now I can’t really rule out anything (okay, maybe I can still rule out Thai).

So there’s a pretty big pile of audio to edit for 4k83 after all. The good news is that we know it needs to be done. The bad news is I’m not doing it yet. I’ve got a lot of other things on my plate, and those other things have priority for me. I’ll probably get to it after Harmy weighs in on whether he (and therefore Krieg der Sterne) intends to use this new frame standard going forward. If so, that will bump up the priority. Or if someone releases a GOUT-synced version of 4k83, that will reduce the priority.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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 (Edited)

So, regarding the German ROTJ audio tracks, I’ve synced at least the main, Silverscreen and THX audio tracks to the DeEd myself using bit-perfect German Laserdisc audio captures. Quickly muxing them into 4k83 to me appears to be in sync “enough”, but I guess sensitivity to out of sync audio might vary.

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hairy_hen said:

In the course of syncing audio for 4K83, schorman and I found that the audio sync issue is more extensive than previously imagined. While the NTSC GOUT is missing two frames in the middle of reel 3, its audio actually turns out to be missing four frames worth of material at this exact spot. Given that the GOUT audio and the print audio run at the same speed nearly all of the time, this means that the sync on the GOUT audio has been incorrect all along. It is not correctly matched to the picture, and was apparently kludged together in a way that just barely works.

After coming to this realization, have you fixed your GOUT-synced 5.1 tracks? If you have, I’d be very grateful if you could share them.

I’m remuxing the Despecialized Editions right now to add your tracks that were included with 4K77, update the subs to Project Threepio 10.1, and make the DTS-HD MA 2.0 track the default instead of 5.1. I’d really like to replace the tracks that are known to be a bit out of sync with fixed versions. Thanks!

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I have not yet had the time to perfect the sync on my soundtracks. The existing versions are all close enough to be watched without any perceptible issues, but at some point I would like to get them even closer. It is only possible to do that with Jedi currently, since there are exact timing references from the film source, but I’m hoping to obtain similar references for the other movies as well.

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alexp120 said:

I just uploaded on M/S a torrent containing a batch of audio files copied from Harmy’s DE 2.0 of Empire MKV that have been edited-down to synch with Renegade Grindhouse ESB: Blu Ray Compatible ISO—meaning, for each audio stream from Empire DE, I have trimmed the length of the audio to match the length of the Renegade Grindhouse Empire video of the release print scan and the edited audio is in synchronization with that video. You will not hear any audio anomalies of the edits–clicks, pops, etc.

All you have to do is mux the audio files with the video…provided that you extract video from the ISO disc image and join the six m2ts files to one long video file.

I decided to work with the ISO Compatible version instead of the previous MKV version of the same presentation because that MKV had a glitch in the final scene of the film where it was corrected in the ISO. Also, many folks had problems playing the MKV’s 4:2:2 colorspace format.

To make sure that the length of the GOUT audio files matches that length of ESB release print video, I had to compare the number of frames of each shot of the film between the release print video and the GOUT video. If so much as one frame is missing from the release print video, I have to go the GOUT audio to trim it. Fortunately, the avisynth scripts for syncing the release print video to the GOUT audio created by fandangos and Darth Mallwalker were a great start to finding these shots. My thanks to them for their work. However, I discovered other shots in the Grindhouse ESB that had missing frames. But, the thing is that, these shots show no evidence of skip-frames. This reminds me of this Hairy_Hen post…

hairy_hen said:

I’m actually fairly certain the GOUT does have more frames than might normally have been seen. The reason I say this is that if you listen extremely closely, you can actually hear small jump-cuts in the soundtracks where the audio has been looped, in order to extend it in length. Such a thing would only have been done if the video ended up being slightly longer than the audio, for the sake of maintaining synch.

Without fail, edits of this type occur each time there is a reel change. Since it happens about every ten to eleven minutes, these would correspond to the shorter reel lengths of a negative or interpositive, rather than the double length of a theatrical print. These are the same spots where different video transfers go out of synch with each other.

Most of this had to have been done for the Definitive Collection laserdiscs themselves back in 1993, but the GOUT also has a few additional edits of this nature that the laserdisc tracks do not, though for what reason I’m not sure. Since there can be so much discrepancy in frame counts between versions, even ones derived from the same master, picking one convenient reference and sticking to it—namely, the NTSC version of the GOUT—is the best way to ensure that audio synch issues are eliminated. I don’t especially like the idea of dropping any frames either, but in practice the differences are small enough not to be noticed when watching, and it is still more complete than a typical 35mm print (ie, the -1 version) would have been.

So, I did the trim of these shots in the GOUT audio.

For now, I’ve upload 8 audio files. The description of the files are as follows:

TRACK 1) 5.1 DTS-HD-MA [English] (1980 mix) (Yes, true 5.1 channel audio, not down mixed stereo)
TRACK 2) 2.0 DTS-HD-MA [English] (1980 mix)
TRACK 3) 1.0 DTS-HD-MA [English] (1980 16mm mono mix)
TRACK 4) 2.0 Dolby Digital [English] (1993 Laserdisc mix)
TRACK 5) 2.0 Dolby Digital [German] (1980 dub)
TRACK 6) 2.0 Dolby Digital [French] (1980 dub)
And for one of our members, Leoj… 😃
TRACK 7) 2.0 Dolby Digital [Spanish] (1980 Castilian dub)
TRACK 8) 1.0 Dolby Digital [Spanish] (1980 American Spanish dub)

Enjoy!

Hi, friend, can you send me a PM to download these audio tracks for ESB Renegade Grindhouse v1?
I would really appreciate it.
Thanks!

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Hostmaster said:

I used the 4K83 ROTJ 1080p version to create a Blu-Ray, adding a couple of gout sync Spanish castillian dubs I have (One from the 2006 DVD, included in many preservation projects in this group, and the other from the 1995 Laser Disc, the one wich has the intro narrated) and both sync ok. The were no troubles with the 2 extra frames of the 4K83 ROTJ version. I used “tsmuxer” for it.

Hi,
Could you pass me these castillian audio tracks to synchronize with return of the jedi 4k83?
Thanks.

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arnautovic said:
Hi, friend, can you send me a PM to download these audio tracks for ESB Renegade Grindhouse v1?
I would really appreciate it.
Thanks!

You would be better-off seeking-out Dreamaster’s color regarded “Renegade Grindhouse”
https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Denoise-Regrain-And-CC-of-ESB-Grindhouse/id/55093
Among the things that Dreamaster has done to the “Grindhouse” print, he has GOUT-sync’d it, so, that you can mux the audio tracks from the ESB-Despecialized edition to the 35mm release print-scan with no out-of-sync issues.

arnautovic said:

Hi,
Could you pass me these castillian audio tracks to synchronize with return of the jedi 4k83?
Thanks.

If you have the Despecialized edition of ROTJ, use the castillian audio tracks from that to mux with the 4K83.

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alexp120 said:

arnautovic said:
Hi, friend, can you send me a PM to download these audio tracks for ESB Renegade Grindhouse v1?
I would really appreciate it.
Thanks!

You would be better-off seeking-out Dreamaster’s color regarded “Renegade Grindhouse”
https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Denoise-Regrain-And-CC-of-ESB-Grindhouse/id/55093
Among the things that Dreamaster has done to the “Grindhouse” print, he has GOUT-sync’d it, so, that you can mux the audio tracks from the ESB-Despecialized edition to the 35mm release print-scan with no out-of-sync issues.

arnautovic said:

Hi,
Could you pass me these castillian audio tracks to synchronize with return of the jedi 4k83?
Thanks.

If you have the Despecialized edition of ROTJ, use the castillian audio tracks from that to mux with the 4K83.

I thought that it could save me a little work.
I’m very clumsy with professional audio software…
I don’t like the Dreammastered version very much, it seems a little more “artificial” compared to “grindhouse”, and I love its dark tone. I recognize the enormous work but I prefer grindhouse, or the future 4k80 as the best available versions.

A couple of weeks ago, I made an attempt to synchronize Castilian audio for grindhouse, it didn’t go very well and it took me a lot of work. That’s why I asked more professional people in this.

I’ll continue working on this.

Would you recommend a special program to work better?
I use SoundForge and Adobe Audition at the moment.
Thanks!

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Surprised the GOUT-synced Castilian audio is noticeably off in 4k83–the lip sync on that dub isn’t super-tight to begin with. Have you tried just using the unmodified GOUT track with 4K83? i.e. don’t try to fix something unless you’re sure it’s broken.

Otherwise, you just open the audio in Audition (that’s what I use), and insert .083 seconds at the right timestamp (not at a computer where I can look this up, but it’s around 1h40m, during the rebel fleet shot right after Luke’s last Dagobah scene). To prevent a gap, you’d need to stretch the audio over the gap, and that’s a little more complicated. Copy a chunk of audio overlapping the gap (before you make it), THEN insert the gap, paste the audio into a temp file, stretch-maintaining-pitch so it’s .083 seconds longer, then copy and re-paste over the stretched audio back onto the same timestamp with 50ms crossfades.

Longer term, I think creating a GOUT-synced version of the 4k83 video would solve a lot of problems. If nobody takes up that mantle for a while, I just may.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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CatBus said:

Surprised the GOUT-synced Castilian audio is noticeably off in 4k83–the lip sync on that dub isn’t super-tight to begin with. Have you tried just using the unmodified GOUT track with 4K83? i.e. don’t try to fix something unless you’re sure it’s broken.

Otherwise, you just open the audio in Audition (that’s what I use), and insert .083 seconds at the right timestamp (not at a computer where I can look this up, but it’s around 1h40m, during the rebel fleet shot right after Luke’s last Dagobah scene). To prevent a gap, you’d need to stretch the audio over the gap, and that’s a little more complicated. Copy a chunk of audio overlapping the gap (before you make it), THEN insert the gap, paste the audio into a temp file, stretch-maintaining-pitch so it’s .083 seconds longer, then copy and re-paste over the stretched audio back onto the same timestamp with 50ms crossfades.

Longer term, I think creating a GOUT-synced version of the 4k83 video would solve a lot of problems. If nobody takes up that mantle for a while, I just may.

Thanks, CatBus,
Lately I have little time to devote to the original trilogy.
I will apply your advice, but in fact, also some other member wrote about how to synchronize audio with 4k83.

If I make future modifications and they come out well -that’s why I ask my doubts and ask for help 😦- I’ll share them with you in case there’s someone interested and can use them.