Remove the admin badge from the bottom of my posts and they fit right in with all the rest. Yet somehow, I’m abusive and hostile and everyone else is a victim.
…replying to some of you in kind is beneath me and maybe I shouldn’t do it, but at the very least, it makes those of you criticizing me for it hypocrites.
I didn’t want to get too involved one way or another, but this post is a bit of a tipping point for me. Let me at least try to explain where the others are coming from.
It is precisely because you are an admin that people feel this way. Far as I can tell, you want to be a normal contributor, but your status as admin prevents that. You, more than anyone else, are an example for how the community should behave. If you are overly-hostile, it doesn’t matter if they were hostile first, you are the admin and should be setting an example. You often bemoan the way the others behave, but you yourself admit that your posts fit in with all the rest, so why should you expect any different…?
It is not hypocritical to hold administrators to a different standard.
Generally speaking, yes. In the context of a political debate, I don’t agree. Participants should be able to walk away from the debate and still talk in other threads without issues. If they can’t, then maybe they’re not emotionally mature enough to be discussing politics.
I don’t have a problem with the contentious tone in the politics threads; it’s unrealistic to expect them to be 100% civil. That’s politics. However, the one thing I did request, repeatedly, over and over and over again, is that those participating not do so if all they can offer is a snarky one-liner as a response. That’s what kicked all this off, as stupid as it was. It was remarkable how removing one member from the discussion instantly cleared up that problem, because not only was he prevented from derailing things, but all his pals suddenly lost interest in politics for some reason. That month was the best month in the politics thread in years. Weird how it all started up again as soon as he came back, including the bad behavior from the fan club who found their interest in politics mysteriously reignited.
What do you propose I do? Genuine question. Here are the options I see, but I welcome your input.
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I continue as I have been, participating like any other member. I speak at the same level as others, including when things get snippy, and in exchange we have an experience that is as close to unmoderated as possible while still maintaining rules to keep things on the rails. Warnings are relatively few and far between (as they have been, even though some of you probably feel otherwise), and occasionally someone gets banned because they don’t know when to quit.
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I up my game and avoid escalating confrontations. I stay polite when presented with hostility. However, because I’m expected to be a model member and mod, I can never truly engage and must respond to provocations with appropriate warnings per the rules. And not an endless stream of warnings; multiple warnings result in a ban.
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I strip myself of mod powers. You guys trust the mods to moderate (I do) and not play favorites. We’d need another mod for sure, and the existing mods would have to agree to it. They can’t ban me, though, just call out bad behavior; shame will have to be enough of a motivator. I’m not getting banned from my own forum, sorry 😉
^This is very true. I remember even thinking ~6years ago that we could have been much more welcoming to new users. Although I never felt it myself, I definitely did see a certain amount of hazing going on throughout the forum. That’s where our agreements end, full stop.
BUT that does not excuse how you continually abuse your power and borderline bully those who disagree with you.
As someone who has at previous points decried Off Topic’s tomfoolery led by OT’s very own Rat Pack, I have to admit–the more moderated the forums, the less fun it got. And I think it has to do with the appearance of a certain administrator more than mods asking people to, God forbid, follow the rules. The attitude I’ve seen from Jay, who admittedly is not alone in such awful behavior, is extremely off-putting. In all honesty, in other than most recent outbursts that were the final straw causing the bans, it seemed like everyone was on the run from him. And that’s no way to treat people who came to a community you run to talk about the stuff they care about. This place was legitimately, much better when you didn’t give a shit about it.
Just a lurker’s two cents. In short, to Jay:
Jeaus fucking Christ. The lack of self awareness on display here is astounding.
Please explain how I abuse my power.
Perhaps a list of those I’ve banned because we had a difference of opinion? (That would be a short list…as in zero.) Maybe links to posts I’ve made outside the political discussions that are combative without cause (aside from threads like these where I’ve spent at least a decade being told I’m a Nazi, bully, etc.)? I freely admit to being hostile sometimes in the political threads, which was, as you noted, not unique to me in any way. Remove the admin badge from the bottom of my posts and they fit right in with all the rest. Yet somehow, I’m abusive and hostile and everyone else is a victim.
Everyone on this forum has been given great latitude over the years, especially as it pertains to criticizing the mods and myself. We tighten up the rules to get some of you under control (because some of you were totally out of control) and of course we start hearing these accusations of abuse, censorship, etc. And it was from everyone I’d expect. It happened during the first “purge” with Dayv, boon, Warb, et al. and it’s happening again today with the Rat Pack, as you call it. They’re smug and hostile in the politics threads and when they get the same in return, they cry, “Abuse! Acting this way is beneath you!”
That last bit is probably true…replying to some of you in kind is beneath me and maybe I shouldn’t do it, but at the very least, it makes those of you criticizing me for it hypocrites.
These accusations of abuse, as always, are completely baseless. Despite 15 years of posts that prove I’ve never banned anyone because they engaged in a debate with me, these accusations will continue because so many of you are happy to play the victim and position me as your big bully.
Feeling bullied isn’t the same as being bullied.
This place was legitimately, much better when you didn’t give a shit about it.
Thanks in particular for that.
Jay, I really wish you could be more introspective and actually consider a measure of criticism as valid instead of altogether being defensive and dismissive of it. If enough people are saying that you make a habit of being arrogant and/or a jerk, there may be truth to it even if they way the say it is tactless and unkind.
I don’t know what else to say, if you’re unwilling to accept any measure of wrongdoing.
I’ve thought about it a lot. The problem is that I’ve reached a different conclusion than you have and I’m not going to cater to those of you who I believe will never be happy unless I change my personality to suit you. You might as well ask Dom to be less smug or mfm to be more cheerful. I’m kind of a dick sometimes and that’s just the way it is.
Maybe some of you would be happier at TFN, SW.com, or any number of other forums. I’m sure they’d allow those of you who’ve been oppressed here to post without fear of being bullied, as you freely criticize the mods and admins without any repercussions.
How many post reports did you personally submit because you were being bullied by Frink, Possessed, and whoever else? Who was it that stuck up for you when you were new here? Your new “friends”? Nope. The mods and I did. My arrogant ass stepped in when the Rat Pack found its new punching bag.
I return politeness and respect in kind. I also return smugness, condescension, and hostility in kind. Anyone on the receiving end should look in the damn mirror.
Those who’ve shared their criticisms in, as you put it, a tactless or unkind manner, can fuck right off.
Jay,
you are arrogant though. how else are we to read this?
I return politeness and respect in kind. I also return smugness, condescension, and hostility in kind. Anyone on the receiving end should look in the damn mirror.
^ that is essentially you absolving yourself of any blame, because someone else is the problem, not you.
and yes, you have never banned someone because they outright agree with you. but you DO call people out on harmless shit in a manner that escalates said shit. case in point, my “cool” comment. it was such a dumb little thing, and look how much you blew it up? sure, you didn’t ban me, but you banning people for what they say isn’t the complaint. The complaint is that when you post, your ‘admin power’ is absolutely a factor to be concerned about. Had a more level-headed mod stepped it (That means one not involved in the interaction) i would have expected some level of tactful warning or reminder to keep it civil, etc. because we know that humans post things that they might rethink later. but that is NOT the way you do things, you escalate.
(all of this is my opinion)
I have no problem with you expressing your opinion.
In your opinion, how many warnings would’ve been sufficient? Were the countless warnings over the previous year asking everyone not to reply with snide one-word or one-line replies insufficient? Was it not enough of an example that Frink was warned endlessly for that behavior and ultimately banned for it (among other things, twice now)?
It’s a real question. How many warnings should we have to issue before you guys finally take the request seriously?
Here’s what I’ve learned during the 15 years I’ve run this place and the ~25 years I’ve participated in other forums as a member: warnings don’t work. They’re merely an administrative requirement to facilitate an eventual ban.
Yes, SilverWook would’ve handled it differently. He’s a peacemaker. I’m an agitator (hence the existence of the original petition and this forum). Anchorhead is a sniper positioned a thousand yards out. For better or worse, these are our personalities, not personas we’ve adopted.
Would another warning by Wook have gotten you to stop? Temporarily, at best. If I’d followed the rules strictly, and perhaps I should have, I would’ve banned you for ignoring repeated warnings, and we’d all be here (minus you) talking about how I abuse my powers because I banned someone in the context of a debate.
Kobayashi Maru.
The reaction to the closing of the politics thread was disproportionate, but communicating that decision could have been better too.
Even though I don’t think it would’ve changed the tone of the discussion at all, I regret not writing something up to announce the changes and providing a thread to discuss them in an organized fashion. Major failure on my part.
Anyone who wishes to discuss things further should direct their comments here:
https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/The-deletion-of-the-political-threads/id/63465