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Info: Star Wars - What is wrong and what is right... Goodbye Magenta — Page 7

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First you say it is lovely, then you say there is a problem. Make up your mind. You could be doing some fun things, but you do need to take advice. That is what this site is for. Handle it right and the people around here will listen to you. Keep up the way you are an no one will.

I have no idea what tools you are using or what color shift you keep talking about. And it isn’t shift so much as balance. The GOUT, and I think all the other pre-dvd editions, were done from interpositives. If you aren’t familiar with them, that is an orange tinted positive print from which an internegative (an orange tinted negative print) is made which is used to make the distribution prints. How well a telecine removed that orange tint varies a lot. We were used to those methods as most movies on TV and home video were that. But to find the true colors, you have to take it a step further than the GOUT or JSC. They are nearly as bad as the DVD/BR, but in a different way. All those garbage mattes and other flaws that you don’t see in the DVD/BR or the film scans (and we have three of those - old and faded, Technicolor, and a low fade print). So I would say we have a pretty good idea what the original colors were (on the prints seen in most theaters there would be some variation depending on the quality of the duplication). When Pleasantville came out with all its B&W sections, they went to a lot of effort to make sure that each copy of the film that went out had a similar bias in the colors on each reel. So even if what you remember was more yellow and if your memory is accurate, it may not be the correct colors coming off the negative. We have a lot of copies of the film that we can back track how they were done and come up with a very good guess of the colors. What you are coming up with does not look even remotely accurate and looks as bad in a different way from the blu-ray. You are shifting the colors too much when 90% of what you need it to fix the blanance. Turn the yellow/blue channel more to the yellow and the cyan/red channel more to the cyan. Stop messing with the tint. The most you should have to nudge that setting is 1-2%. And for select scenes only. The setting you are calling color shift is one that you have to be very careful with because the moment you go too far, the results look horrible. Other settings can be done with a heavier hand, but that one you must be light with or the results look terrible.

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Ronster said:

But it is important to figure out how to go about doing something to get the best result.

I couldn’t agree more.

I am both identifying a problem and finding a solution of how to handle none of which anyone has any input in apart from calibrate your monitor guff

But…calibrating your monitor is literally the first and most important step in figuring out how to go about fixing color issues!

Fuck it. I’m done. You keep doing…whatever it is you think you’re doing.

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LexX said:

Can we just say goodbye to this thread? It clearly holds zero value, there are actual projects going on.

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yotsuya said:

First you say it is lovely, then you say there is a problem. Make up your mind. You could be doing some fun things, but you do need to take advice. That is what this site is for. Handle it right and the people around here will listen to you. Keep up the way you are an no one will.

I have no idea what tools you are using or what color shift you keep talking about. And it isn’t shift so much as balance. The GOUT, and I think all the other pre-dvd editions, were done from interpositives. If you aren’t familiar with them, that is an orange tinted positive print from which an internegative (an orange tinted negative print) is made which is used to make the distribution prints. How well a telecine removed that orange tint varies a lot. We were used to those methods as most movies on TV and home video were that. But to find the true colors, you have to take it a step further than the GOUT or JSC. They are nearly as bad as the DVD/BR, but in a different way. All those garbage mattes and other flaws that you don’t see in the DVD/BR or the film scans (and we have three of those - old and faded, Technicolor, and a low fade print). So I would say we have a pretty good idea what the original colors were (on the prints seen in most theaters there would be some variation depending on the quality of the duplication). When Pleasantville came out with all its B&W sections, they went to a lot of effort to make sure that each copy of the film that went out had a similar bias in the colors on each reel. So even if what you remember was more yellow and if your memory is accurate, it may not be the correct colors coming off the negative. We have a lot of copies of the film that we can back track how they were done and come up with a very good guess of the colors. What you are coming up with does not look even remotely accurate and looks as bad in a different way from the blu-ray. You are shifting the colors too much when 90% of what you need it to fix the blanance. Turn the yellow/blue channel more to the yellow and the cyan/red channel more to the cyan. Stop messing with the tint. The most you should have to nudge that setting is 1-2%. And for select scenes only. The setting you are calling color shift is one that you have to be very careful with because the moment you go too far, the results look horrible. Other settings can be done with a heavier hand, but that one you must be light with or the results look terrible.

The actual Color Hue Saturation and Value filter either needs to be in the correct colorspace or done direcg to mpeg is what I am finding at least not in RGB colorspace for Gout.

you can shift it as much as it has drifted away by “off base” or “X” to bring it back by that amount to same value as it is relative and requires no calibration.

In RGB vérsion of Filter it does indeed cause a problem for which you might try to compensate for the color error like I was doing.

But doing the shift direct to the mpeg does actually get really nice results. I am happy that this at least works correctly.

It could rapidly speed up a color correction project I think. As in the Gout looks not right on anything I watch it on in a lot of parts but in some it is fine.

Just so i have to carry on repeating myself the base or a very correct part of the GOUT transfer would be R2 and 3p0 on the sandcrawler interior hold. This I consider Base or no shift at all.

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I am baffled why you think changing the hue is a good idea. Especially by how much you are doing it. By doing that you aren’t just removing red and moving it to yellow. You are rotating all the colors. You make the blues more purple, the greens more blue, and the yellows more green, etc. The results you are getting prove you don’t really understand all of what it is doing. The results are not pleasing but disturbing.

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you need to use video filters in the right colorspace that is not RGB but ypbpr.

this is pretty much the moral of this story.

And that is about all i have to say about it.

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guys, the whole movie was meant to be played backwards. it all makes sense. the death star isn’t a weapon, it has a planet creating laser. and Luke was so bad at his job, he was left behind on a desert planet.

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This thread makes me want to start cutting myself again.

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dahmage said:

guys, the whole movie was meant to be played backwards. it all makes sense. the death star isn’t a weapon, it has a planet creating laser. and Luke was so bad at his job, he was left behind on a desert planet.

Don’t forget the hidden message from the devil as darth vader is finally bbq’s over a spit roast.

What would you say is the best special edition laserdisc version?

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So… the correct color space is not RGB? Why? Do you know how colors are recorded on film? Are you aware that both color film and the old 3 strip technicolor process filter by Red, Green, and Blue light. Technicolor used actual filters, but color film uses chemicals sensitive to red, green, and blue light. So why wouldn’t RBG work when that is what is on the film? CYM is just the mirror image of RBG. The technicolor process filtered by RBG and then printed in CYM. It’s not like this is a new process.

And its not like what you are doing is actually fixing it. It is making it worse, just in a different way.

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yotsuya said:

So… the correct color space is not RGB? Why? Do you know how colors are recorded on film? Are you aware that both color film and the old 3 strip technicolor process filter by Red, Green, and Blue light. Technicolor used actual filters, but color film uses chemicals sensitive to red, green, and blue light. So why wouldn’t RBG work when that is what is on the film? CYM is just the mirror image of RBG. The technicolor process filtered by RBG and then printed in CYM. It’s not like this is a new process.

And its not like what you are doing is actually fixing it. It is making it worse, just in a different way.

I don’t understand why you are angry…

at the end of the day, I like that analogue look. Sorry if you don’t like that analogue look but i do. Sort of warm and fuzzy imperfect but it yeah I like it. I have not even done anything, Jusg looking at “how” not this is exactly anything at the moment.

Do uou like the old special edition laserdiscs?

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Ronster said: at the end of the day, I like that analogue look. Sorry if you don’t like that analogue look but i do. Sort of warm and fuzzy imperfect but it yeah I like it.

PLEASE stop this. You clearly have no idea what you’re doing, and you’re NOT restoring the film to its original look.
There are numerous people in this thread pointing out errors in everything you do. Maybe it’s not us, but you.

Can’t a mod lock this thread please?

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Setzer said:

Ronster said: at the end of the day, I like that analogue look. Sorry if you don’t like that analogue look but i do. Sort of warm and fuzzy imperfect but it yeah I like it.

PLEASE stop this. You clearly have no idea what you’re doing, and you’re NOT restoring the film to its original look.
There are numerous people in this thread pointing out errors in everything you do. Maybe it’s not us, but you.

Can’t a mod lock this thread please?

well I just caught a quick gimpse of the special edition broadcast and it is very true to laserschwerts trailer.

It is amazing how mugh ddtail has been lost after “The Restoration” What i am saying is that the special edition end part especially mostly looked way better than it does now. I am not all that fussed by it but it is like very different now also.

It is like as soon as a pure digital version was created the film has never been the same.

I would like to make a very analogue version that has that look and feel. It is trying to find what would be the best way to do that. But yes back to phosphor also something warm fuzzy and crisp.

What is the quality of special edition vcd like?

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Setzer said:

Can’t a mod lock this thread please?

Or everyone can just, you know, stop posting in it and stop reading it.

I’m enjoying reading it myself.

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TV’s Frink said:

Setzer said:

Can’t a mod lock this thread please?

Or everyone can just, you know, stop posting in it and stop reading it.

I’m enjoying reading it myself.

A dumpster fire of a color grading thread is pretty much Frink candy.

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Ronster said:
well I just caught a quick gimpse of the special edition broadcast and it is very true to laserschwerts trailer.

Hey, don’t pull me into this clusterfuck of a thread!

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Unfortunately the fact of the matter is…

If you hue shift the Gout in the correct colorspace what you get is not “revised color timing” But “fixed color timing” and it is practically equal and identical to the Special edition pre 2004 i.e. 1997 Special edition released to theaters.

This is the point. George Lucus sat there and ordered the hue shifting fixed for this release , but now we are back to square one again post 2004.

So sorry for liking older versions. After seeing 1997 broadcast version of the special edition. It very much makes sense. But come 2004 until present that is like a mish-mash version.

It is theatrical print coupled with the special edition.

The Special edition though was not based on the theatrical film print but a telecine or the Gout version master. Or atleast the broadcast 97 version looks like a good version of gout master.

if the actual special edition print looks different to broadcast version then you have a yet another version of special edition which does not use Gout master.

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Ronster said:

This is the point. George Lucus sat there and ordered the hue shifting fixed for this release.

Yeah, George Lucus loves to do that.

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Ronster said:

Unfortunately the fact of the matter is…

… Apparently lost on you despite multiple people more knowledgeable than yourself explaining it to you multiple times.

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the only thing lost here is the master that the special edition effects made by ILM were to go with.

Now we have special edition effects paired with a new master that they were not designed to go with.

I don’t think the way it is now match at all rather than how it was designed to be originally in the Special Edition.

I did notice laserschwertz trailer for the normal film footage though looks nothing like the 97 broadcast version. The special effects shots however are accurate.

97 broadcast version looks like Gout Master and updated special effects.

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I’m going to try one last time. Telecines, and raw scans are not reliable color references. They capture what’s on an interpositive or print, but the colors are going to be specific to the apparatus and settings used for the scanning, and in case of a telecine to the person doing the telecine. They do not represent what´s on a print, unless the scan or telecine is corrected to roughly match a projected print. So, the telecines generally do not represent what was put on the o-neg, or what was seen in theatres. It may look pleasing to the eye, but that’s another matter.

Ronster said:

Unfortunately the fact of the matter is…

If you hue shift the Gout in the correct colorspace what you get is not “revised color timing” But “fixed color timing” and it is practically equal and identical to the Special edition pre 2004 i.e. 1997 Special edition released to theaters.

How do you know this? Did you compare it to a projected 1997 SE print? If not, all your hue shift represents is an interpretation, that looks pleasing to you, and perhaps a number of other people. Saying “the colors are fixed” means very little unless you define what that means. Does it mean the colors closely match what was seen in theatres? If so, how did you establish this? Does this mean the colors closely match reliable photographs of props, sets, and locations, such that the look of your “fix” roughly represents what was captured on camera in 1977?

This is the point. George Lucus sat there and ordered the hue shifting fixed for this release , but now we are back to square one again post 2004.

So sorry for liking older versions. After seeing 1997 broadcast version of the special edition. It very much makes sense. But come 2004 until present that is like a mish-mash version.

It is theatrical print coupled with the special edition.

The Special edition though was not based on the theatrical film print but a telecine or the Gout version master. Or atleast the broadcast 97 version looks like a good version of gout master.

The 1997 SE broadcast version of the special edition for ANH is one of the worst telecines of any made for the OT. The color balance shifts constantly even within a shot, and large parts of the early parts of the film have a marked blue cast to them.

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DrDre said:

I’m going to try one last time. Telecines, and raw scans are not reliable color references. They capture what’s on an interpositive or print, but the colors are going to be specific to the apparatus and settings used for the scanning, and in case of a telecine to the person doing the telecine. They do not represent what´s on a print, unless the scan or telecine is corrected to roughly match a projected print. So, the telecine´s generally do not represent what was put on the o-neg, or what was seen in theatres. It may look pleasing to the eye, but that’s another matter.

Ronster said:

Unfortunately the fact of the matter is…

If you hue shift the Gout in the correct colorspace what you get is not “revised color timing” But “fixed color timing” and it is practically equal and identical to the Special edition pre 2004 i.e. 1997 Special edition released to theaters.

How do you know this? Did you compare it to a projected 1997 SE print?

This is the point. George Lucus sat there and ordered the hue shifting fixed for this release , but now we are back to square one again post 2004.

So sorry for liking older versions. After seeing 1997 broadcast version of the special edition. It very much makes sense. But come 2004 until present that is like a mish-mash version.

It is theatrical print coupled with the special edition.

The Special edition though was not based on the theatrical film print but a telecine or the Gout version master. Or atleast the broadcast 97 version looks like a good version of gout master.

The 1997 SE broadcast version of the special edition for ANH is one of the worst telecines of any made for the OT. The color balance shifts constantly even within a shot, and large parts of the early parts of the film have a marked blue cast to them.

ok I only really was comparing the detail in the special effects shots initially and this is good although it is pan & scan.

But yeah I noticed how different it was and I thought this looked like a modified Gout master paired with the special edition effects. I honestly did not spend much time looking at it. But I think there is something right and something match up between the special edition effects and this broadcast version. It may be bad in your eyes but it may just have some problems.

It does seem that the general consensus is TV broadcast = bad looking not desireable and always wrong.

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Ronster said:

DrDre said:

I’m going to try one last time. Telecines, and raw scans are not reliable color references. They capture what’s on an interpositive or print, but the colors are going to be specific to the apparatus and settings used for the scanning, and in case of a telecine to the person doing the telecine. They do not represent what´s on a print, unless the scan or telecine is corrected to roughly match a projected print. So, the telecine´s generally do not represent what was put on the o-neg, or what was seen in theatres. It may look pleasing to the eye, but that’s another matter.

Ronster said:

Unfortunately the fact of the matter is…

If you hue shift the Gout in the correct colorspace what you get is not “revised color timing” But “fixed color timing” and it is practically equal and identical to the Special edition pre 2004 i.e. 1997 Special edition released to theaters.

How do you know this? Did you compare it to a projected 1997 SE print?

This is the point. George Lucus sat there and ordered the hue shifting fixed for this release , but now we are back to square one again post 2004.

So sorry for liking older versions. After seeing 1997 broadcast version of the special edition. It very much makes sense. But come 2004 until present that is like a mish-mash version.

It is theatrical print coupled with the special edition.

The Special edition though was not based on the theatrical film print but a telecine or the Gout version master. Or atleast the broadcast 97 version looks like a good version of gout master.

The 1997 SE broadcast version of the special edition for ANH is one of the worst telecines of any made for the OT. The color balance shifts constantly even within a shot, and large parts of the early parts of the film have a marked blue cast to them.

ok I only really was comparing the detail in the special effects shots initially and this is good although it is pan & scan.

But yeah I noticed how different it was and I thought this looked like a modified Gout master paired with the special edition effects. I honestly did not spend much time looking at it. But I think there is something right and something match up between the special edition effects and this broadcast version. It may be bad in your eyes but it may just have some problems.

It does seem that the general consensus is TV broadcast = bad looking not desireable and always wrong.

Nobody said the TV broadcasts are always bad looking, just that unless you define your objectives when color grading a shot or scene, blanket statements that involve the terms “wrong” or “right” have zero meaning, and represent your own subjective tastes. You make these claims like “the magenta shouldn’t be there”, or “there’s a hue shift” without providing any proof, or reference to back up these claims. When knowledgeable people like poita provide you with references, and advice, you ignore them or dismiss them outright, because you would rather trust your own infallible memory of a movie you saw over four decades ago. Rather than acknowledge that your process is flawed (as almost any process is), and your results highly variable, and debatable, you keep insisting that whatever you’re doing produces the “right” colors.