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Religion — Page 121

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Not sure. I think that churches and schools are historically problematic because of the high chance of unobserved time with an adult and a child, which make them attractive occupations for predators. It goes without saying that most abuse happens within families, where this is unavoidable. Both churches and schools are improving in this respect (the CCTV in my kid’s daycare was both impressive and vaguely Orwellian, but I know why it was there), but very slowly.

Part of the complication of this is the long reporting times, so the church that allowed this abuse may have implemented decades of reforms since. Not enough, certainly, but at the very least, the leadership has been replaced multiple times since then. Unfortunately, I think this is scandal is being abused by those who seek to reverse the current Pope’s (mild, minimal) overtures to the LGBT community, because there’s a long and ugly history of attacking the LGBT community using child abuse as an excuse (much as lynching was often given the moral cover of avenging alleged sexual assault).

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No institution has been as bad as the Catholic Church in this respect. To be fair, though, no institution operates on such a global scale as the Catholic Church does. As for the current Pope’s “mild” and “minimal” overtures to the LGBT community, I award him no points for that. Francis deserves to be in prison just as much as his predecessor.

The Person in Question

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I think there are a few things to consider:

  1. Looking at the Church globally, there are comparable rates of abuse in many cases in other institutions, and just in general. Huge numbers of people have been sexually abused (in the States, statistics suggest one in every five girls and one in twenty boys, and 28% of youth by the age of 17: see link).

  2. In certain regions, the rate of abuse in the Church seems higher than average. There were groups of priests who would systematically abuse children, and bishops were sometimes part of these groups. So there is/was definitely a real and extraordinary problem in some areas of the world.

  3. There was often an attitude in the Catholic Church that such sins were the result of a one-time temptation and that once the perpetrator of the crime had reconciled with God and the Church, promising to reform himself, there was no reason to disbelieve him, and he could continue his ministry.

  4. It used to be a lot easier than it is now to get through seminary and become a priest. Rigorous screening and psychological examinations were not required of seminarians.

  5. Gay Catholic men would often become priests rather than reject their faith or marry a woman they were not attracted to. Seminary formation did not include lessons on the dangers of sexual repression, so many gay men made it into the priesthood with little ability to master their sexual urges. Priests were well respected, and thus many straight men also became priests for the wrong reasons, and were not always able to control their sexual instinct after a while. This accounts in large part for the 50% of abuse cases in which the victims had reached or finished puberty. The abusers were men who broke down under pressure after a while and gave into temptation, since they unhealthily repressed their sexual desires.

  6. In the other 50% of cases in which the victims were pre-pubescent, the explanation that most readily comes to mind is that pedophiles would naturally have been attracted to the priesthood. After all, who would have been among the most trusted members of any community before the sex scandals? The parish priest. Becoming a priest gave ready and frequent access to children, and put one in a position of authority over them, making it unlikely for one to get caught.

Thus, the abuse scandals in the Church seem to me to be the result of (a) poor seminary formation, (b) poor screening of potential priests, © misguided mercy and forgiveness, and (d) already evil men entering the priesthood with the intent of abusing the accompanying privileges.

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All four of those causes seem like reason enough to me to shut down the Catholic Church. They also don’t account for the systematic cover ups.

Your #5 point confuses me. Them unhealthily repressing their urges is in accordance with the Catholic religion. How is that not, at least in part, the fault of the Church?

The Person in Question

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moviefreakedmind said:

All four of those causes seem like reason enough to me to shut down the Catholic Church. They also don’t account for the systematic cover ups.

Your #5 point confuses me. Them unhealthily repressing their urges is in accordance with the Catholic religion. How is that not, at least in part, the fault of the Church?

That’s ridiculous, because (a) most of these problems aren’t nearly as present or relevant anymore, and (b) they don’t represent flaws in the religion, they represent flaws in policy. Reform is needed, not the dismantling of a religion. Furthermore, although a significant minority was involved, it was only a minority.

Unhealthily repressing urges is not part of the Catholic religion. We are told over and over again in the seminary that repressing our sexuality is extremely unhealthy, and living a celibate life requires integrating our sexuality* into our lives in a psychologically healthy manner. It might sound like repression, but it is far from it.

  • Sexuality is much broader than sexual drive, so we also aren’t being told in the least to give in to sexual urges.
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It involves a minority of Catholics, but a majority of the Church’s most powerful officials are complicit at least. It’s official policy to handle them internally rather than approaching the police, and by “handle” I mean relocate the offender to a new, unsuspecting parish. In the United States, and most civilized countries, abetting a felon is also a crime. I’m arguing for the religious institutions to be dismantled because of their crimes. If it turned out that JCPenney’s was doing this, then there’d be no debate over shutting down the corporation and arresting those responsible.

As for repression vs. integration or whatever, that just sounds like Newspeak to me.

The Person in Question

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I still don’t even understand it, the Bible doesn’t call for it being necessary so why torture yourself when God doesn’t require or expect you to. Clearly it does more harm than good. In fact I don’t even see what the benefit would be.

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It’s a tenant of the Catholic Church that was not derived from anything biblical. In 1 Timothy, it actually says that heretics are the ones that forbid people to marry. I guess you could say that Christ was celibate, although that isn’t even explicitly stated in the Bible. He was also homeless and destitute and you don’t see the Catholic hierarchy following those examples.

The Person in Question

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The only reason Christ was celibate (supposedly) was because he never married though. Although he seemed to have alot of close female friends, seems logical that he could have loved one or more of them at some time, and I don’t think that should even logically impact how a Christian would view him.

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Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

I’m no fan of religion (well, except the FSM). However, is the abuse rate any higher in the catholic church than in other religions? Or even when compared to large secular organizations? I haven’t seen any such statistics, and I wonder if it is just an unfortunate aspect of humanity in general.

FSM?

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Warbler said:

Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

I’m no fan of religion (well, except the FSM). However, is the abuse rate any higher in the catholic church than in other religions? Or even when compared to large secular organizations? I haven’t seen any such statistics, and I wonder if it is just an unfortunate aspect of humanity in general.

FSM?

Flying Spaghetti Monster. IIRC he has difficulty keeping his noodly appendage to himself.

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CatBus said:

Warbler said:

Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

I’m no fan of religion (well, except the FSM). However, is the abuse rate any higher in the catholic church than in other religions? Or even when compared to large secular organizations? I haven’t seen any such statistics, and I wonder if it is just an unfortunate aspect of humanity in general.

FSM?

Flying Spaghetti Monster. IIRC he has difficulty keeping his noodly appendage to himself.

That’s the #2 reason I bit it off.

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moviefreakedmind said:

It involves a minority of Catholics, but a majority of the Church’s most powerful officials are complicit at least.

Citation? I highly doubt that’s the case. I’m not sure how much you know about the way the Church works, but bishops are pretty autonomous, so the way they deal with issues is pretty localized.

It’s official policy to handle them internally rather than approaching the police, and by “handle” I mean relocate the offender to a new, unsuspecting parish. In the United States, and most civilized countries, abetting a felon is also a crime. I’m arguing for the religious institutions to be dismantled because of their crimes. If it turned out that JCPenney’s was doing this, then there’d be no debate over shutting down the corporation and arresting those responsible.

Where is this official policy? The reports that are coming out address incidents that have happened over the last 70-or-so years. Things have changed quite a bit in the last two or three decades. In most of Canada, I believe it has been official policy since the '80s to report things to the police.

As for repression vs. integration or whatever, that just sounds like Newspeak to me.

Well it’s not. We get professional psychologists to come in and talk to us about this stuff. It’s science. And I can personally attest, and can attest for many other seminarians and priests, that we are not even remotely repressed. I am quite prepared to commit to celibacy, and would very much not want to marry and be a priest (waaay too much work, and the stress of having to devote oneself to both a family and a parish would be unbelievable). There is an incredible freedom that comes from proper sexual integration and self-mastery, and it is possible to do.

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Possessed said:

I still don’t even understand it, the Bible doesn’t call for it being necessary so why torture yourself when God doesn’t require or expect you to. Clearly it does more harm than good. In fact I don’t even see what the benefit would be.

I must admit, the word “torture” made me snicker a little. I certainly don’t feel tortured! Nor do I get the impression that any of the priests I know feel that way.

But see my response to MFM. And if you have any further questions, feel free to ask. As someone who is (willingly and gladly) preparing for lifelong celibacy, I couldn’t disagree more with you, and have plenty to say on the benefits of celibacy (and trust me, I haven’t been brainwashed, LOL).

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I should also ask for some (scientific) evidence that there is a relation to celibacy and child abuse. There are many sex abusers that are married or have some other access to sexual pleasure besides their criminal behaviour, and there are many, many people who have been happily celibate throughout history. I’d be willing to accept that forced celibacy might be an issue, but it’s frankly ridiculous to say that celibacy is “forced” on Catholic priests. No one’s making them become priests…

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RicOlie_2 said:

I am quite prepared to commit to celibacy, and would very much not want to marry and be a priest (waaay too much work, and the stress of having to devote oneself to both a family and a parish would be unbelievable).

The Pastor of my church seems to manage ok with both a family and the church to take care of.

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Torturing yourself was a poor choice of words, but to add on to what warbler said it’s one thing if you just don’t think family life is for you, but why FORCE yourself to avoid having a family when God doesn’t require you to? (According to the Bible)

The only passage I can find in the new testament that even remotely suggests that you shouldn’t was not a commandment but just a suggestion and it had nothing to do with spiritual leadership but was merely advising that it would be easier to hide yourself from Romans who would kill you for being Christian if you were single.

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RicOlie_2 said:

moviefreakedmind said:

It involves a minority of Catholics, but a majority of the Church’s most powerful officials are complicit at least.

Citation? I highly doubt that’s the case. I’m not sure how much you know about the way the Church works, but bishops are pretty autonomous, so the way they deal with issues is pretty localized.

They all know about it and most are choosing to do nothing. The current pope and his immediate predecessors know or knew about it and there’s direct evidence that Benedict XVI was directly involved in coverups before he became pope. The sex-abuse and their coverups are common knowledge. Ask anyone on the street and they’re familiar with it. Are you going to tell me, with a straight face, that the majority of officials in the Catholic Church are blissfully unaware of the mass child abuse that happens in its institution?

It’s official policy to handle them internally rather than approaching the police, and by “handle” I mean relocate the offender to a new, unsuspecting parish. In the United States, and most civilized countries, abetting a felon is also a crime. I’m arguing for the religious institutions to be dismantled because of their crimes. If it turned out that JCPenney’s was doing this, then there’d be no debate over shutting down the corporation and arresting those responsible.

Where is this official policy? The reports that are coming out address incidents that have happened over the last 70-or-so years. Things have changed quite a bit in the last two or three decades. In most of Canada, I believe it has been official policy since the '80s to report things to the police.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/pennsylvania-report-catholic-clergy-sex-abuse-scandal_us_5b2d4062e4b00295f15c56db

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/12/world/europe/german-church-sex-abuse-children.html?rref=collection%2Fsectioncollection%2Fworld

https://nypost.com/2018/08/14/australia-archbishop-gets-house-detention-for-abuse-cover-up/

Also, happening over the last 70-or-so years is meaningless. “The last 70-or-so years” includes yesterday and today. I find it weird that you think “the church has done this throughout history” is a valid excuse. It actually plays more into my argument that the Church be viewed as a crime ring.

As for repression vs. integration or whatever, that just sounds like Newspeak to me.

Well it’s not. We get professional psychologists to come in and talk to us about this stuff. It’s science. And I can personally attest, and can attest for many other seminarians and priests, that we are not even remotely repressed. I am quite prepared to commit to celibacy, and would very much not want to marry and be a priest (waaay too much work, and the stress of having to devote oneself to both a family and a parish would be unbelievable). There is an incredible freedom that comes from proper sexual integration and self-mastery, and it is possible to do.

Use all the Newspeak that you want, but being taught that your urges and lust are sinful crimes against the Almighty (who has the power to consign you to hell, mind you) is repression. You may be content with it, but you are repressing your desires. And also, the repression in Christianity and Islam, and many other religions too, goes beyond the clergy.

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I’m not sure what to think of the vow of celibacy thing. Being rather socially clumsy, it wasn’t uncommon for me to go two or three years without so much as a date (and this was not by choice). But never once did that cause me to have the slightest notion of taking advantage of a kid. I’m not sure that people take advantage of kids because they are sex-starved… I think they just are attracted to kids. Or does it depend on the person?

"Close the blast doors!"
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I hate the celibacy vow, but I don’t think that’s why there is so much abuse. My assumption is that pedophiles become priests because they know that they will not only have access to children, but also that the Church will protect and enable them in their crimes. They would have access to children in schools, daycares, summer camps, or sports teams, but accusations typically are and have been taken very seriously in those settings. You still see tragic cases of abuse in schools and sports, but not thousands of students abused by thousands of teachers in single cities where the districts ensured that the teachers be allowed to continue their abuse. The protection is what draws them, I think.

The Person in Question

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Not to mention that quite a lot of abusers were themselves abused as children. They may very well have been abused in a church themselves, and while most of the abused may have felt repelled by or conflicted about the church, they may have felt even more drawn to it.

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Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

I’m not sure what to think of the vow of celibacy thing. Being rather socially clumsy, it wasn’t uncommon for me to go two or three years without so much as a date (and this was not by choice). But never once did that cause me to have the slightest notion of taking advantage of a kid. I’m not sure that people take advantage of kids because they are sex-starved… I think they just are attracted to kids. Or does it depend on the person?

I’ve never had a date and it doesn’t make me want to take advantage of children. Nothing would make me do that stuff to a kid.

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moviefreakedmind said:

I hate the celibacy vow, but I don’t think that’s why there is so much abuse. My assumption is that pedophiles become priests because they know that they will not only have access to children, but also that the Church will protect and enable them in their crimes. They would have access to children in schools, daycares, summer camps, or sports teams, but accusations typically are and have been taken very seriously in those settings. You still see tragic cases of abuse in schools and sports, but not thousands of students abused by thousands of teachers in single cities where the districts ensured that the teachers be allowed to continue their abuse. The protection is what draws them, I think.

Alternatively, I’ve often wondered if some people notice in themselves urgings that they wish to suppress (e.g., attraction to kids, attraction to same sex), and are therefore attracted to being a part of an institution that provides a supportive infrastructure for a celibate life. I once knew someone who was considering joining a monastery partly for this reason. Ironic if they were to then find themselves in an environment that supported acting on said urges.

"Close the blast doors!"
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Make that two anecdotes, quite possible there’s some data behind that too somewhere. Guilting yourself into suppression of your own urges can lead to at least considering a life in the church, as a means of keeping a lid on it. IIRC Dan Savage was once a seminarian – had he stuck with it, English speakers may have still been cobbling together several words just to simply say santorum.

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