I’ve considered the idea that Vader’s failure to corrupt Luke in ESB sort of broke his ambition. I think it’s possible that when we see Vader in ROTJ he truly no longer believes that he’s capable of going up against Palpatine, and he really does just want to serve his master because he has nothing else left. The fire is certainly gone in his characterization; maybe that’s the point rather than it just being lazy or inconsistent writing.
He even looks very sad in this movie. Which is quite a performance to look sad with a mask.
Most people point to the Ewoks and RoTJ’s general muppet-fest tone as the film’s biggest problems. While I tend to agree, my biggest beefs with this movie are -
a) Leia being Luke’s sister does not make a lick of sense. Putting aside the obvious romantic undertones of ANH (from Luke’s perspective in particular) the fact is that Leia couldn’t have been the ‘other’. When Yoda declared “there is another” he’d just been imploring Luke to potentially sacrifice Leia who, at the time, happened to be a captive on Bespin. This also makes the backstory absurd. Apparently Luke was ‘hidden’ at Vader’s old homestead and allowed to retain the Skywalker name. Leia was ‘hidden’ in a high profile royal house. The whole thing is dumb.
b) Luke doesn’t actually save the galaxy. After all the build-up of the previous two films Luke merely makes it his mission to save Vader. The fact that the Emperor is killed in the event is a lucky consequence of Luke’s selfish religious/family mission. The idea of any kind of legend arising from this is ridiculous. Show me a single rebel at the Ewok celebration who would’ve been thrilled to hear that Vader had turned out to be a nice guy after all and that Luke had hidden under a stairwell to facilitate this turnaround while people were being slaughtered outside. Some legend.
What’s worse is that this makes a mockery of the Force and the Jedi. The first films imply that the Dark Side is something you’re tempted and corrupted by - in Vader’s case it would have been the promise of greater power at the cost of his soul/morality. RoTJ shows us that all you have to do is lose your temper to turn irreversibly evil. Not only that, apparently Jedi are completely useless in a conflict situation. If a twisted despot is annihilating your friends with a super-laser, you’re not permitted to act aggressively because that’s the Dark Side. This is completely stupid. By that logic Luke was a veritable Sith Lord when he blew up the first Death Star.
I don’t know if any of the Youtubers currently getting serious mileage out of trashing TLJ read these forums, but my challenge to them is to dare to put RoTJ under the same microscope they apply to TLJ.
well, i love that luke didn’t save the galaxy and went on a more personal quest.
I don’t mind the Ewoks, but there is so much more I don’t like in Jedi.
First though, the space battle outside the Death Star is fantastic, The Luke/Vader battle is really well done, and you feel Luke’s belief and his choices, and when he goes batshit protecting Leia, it is very moving, and also scary as his love/protection of her might lead to him embracing the dark side.
The speeder bike sequence is also absolutely wonderful.
On the downside though, the story is tired, another death star with another ‘flaw’ that means it can be taken down with a single shot. Also, the Max Rebo band is so very poorly executed.
A blue elephant that is clearly made of foam rubber, a lead singer that couldn’t possibly stand on those legs. The character designs are awful, and they are poorly executed, and the music is painful. I didn’t think it could be worse until the Special Edition, and my god, it got so much worse.
Jedi is so much wasted opportunity. The ‘comical’ death of Boba Fett was such a waste of potential for that character. Leia is wasted in the film, she could have had a much wider role, but had little to do in the movie.
The rest is better summed up here:
http://filmthreat.com/uncategorized/50-reasons-why-return-of-the-jedi-sucks/
I’m okay with the Ewoks, I think there could have been better choices, but it is the weakest in the trilogy for me.
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It reminds me that my main issue with the Vader’s plot in ROTJ is the line “I MUST obey my Master”, whereas he explicitly told his son (and his wife !) that he would rather like kill the Emperor and rule the galaxy himself. Just removing that line and leaving only “you don’t know the power of the dark side” would make things work better I guess.
It’s just a slight complain: I know ROTJ is not the same top quality as ANH and TESB and has many problems here and there, but it still is a very good movie (and still the third best SW in my opinion), as a SW and as a fantasy flick.
I actually think it’s interesting to note how differently he acts when the Emperor is around vs. when he isn’t.
But the emperor wasn’t there when he said that was he? Maybe I’m misremembering but I thought that line was when it was just him and Luke still on Endor.
well, i love that luke didn’t save the galaxy and went on a more personal quest.
Instead of fighting the war? I mean the whole point of the OT (to this point) was Luke being the ‘new hope’ and the ‘last hope’ and every other kind of hope. If Luke has nothing to do with the actual battle, what’s the point of the film? It’d be like a Superman movie that has Supes go off to find religion while Jimmy Olsen saves the day.
More importantly, Yoda says “pass on what you have learned”. Pass on what exactly? That Jedi Knights aren’t allowed to fight, but they’re great for bedside conversions? This is where grumpy TLJ Luke actually has a point - the Jedi are useless! The last thing the galaxy needs is more Jedi.
I swear I’m not baiting you. I honestly do not understand this movie. Fans claim that Rian Johnson destroyed Luke’s character, but I maintain that his character had already been ruined. RoTJ Luke is completely selfish and values his own religious goals (including his evil father’s spiritual wellbeing) over the fate of the galaxy. Not cool.
I fundamentally disagree with virtually everything you believe about Luke, but I respect your right to that opinion. It’s just… so completely alien to me? Like… I never read the character like that???
sorry, i didn’t read your entire post, only the first few sentences, but i’ll try to reply.
i don’t see how luke isn’t literally being ‘the last hope’ when he’s facing down the two most powerful men in the galaxy alone.
i also don’t see why luke was the hope for the galaxy and not for the jedi. i’ve always interpreted it as the latter.
i’m not being able to translate my thoughts into words well enough, so sorry about that, but meh
sorry, i didn’t read your entire post, only the first few sentences, but i’ll try to reply.
i don’t see how luke isn’t literally being ‘the last hope’ when he’s facing down the two most powerful men in the galaxy alone.
i also don’t see why luke was the hope for the galaxy and not for the jedi. i’ve always interpreted it as the latter.
i’m not being able to translate my thoughts into words well enough, so sorry about that, but meh
Luke’s only role in the final battle was one of liability. He turned himself in (an admittedly noble gesture) because his very presence put the mission at risk. So already his being a Jedi was not helpful.
Secondly his expressed desire (see the scene with Leia) was a) turning himself in for the above reason and b) turning Vader to the ‘good side’. Nothing about the Emperor or facing down the bad guys. He merely wanted to save his war-criminal father. Again, not helpful (unless your surname happens to be Skywalker).
Thirdly, while Palpatine was blowing rebel ships to smithereens with a super-laser, Luke was hiding under a staircase because he didn’t want to fight. What would you do if you had fighting skills and were alone in a room with Hitler and his bestie? Would you go meditate somewhere, or would you do everything in your power to subvert the slaughter of innocent people?
I fundamentally disagree with virtually everything you believe about Luke, but I respect your right to that opinion. It’s just… so completely alien to me? Like… I never read the character like that???
How do you see Luke in RoTJ? Again, I’m not trying to be an argumentative jerk, I’m genuinely curious.
I agree with SOME of what you say ShoppingMaul. Not really on Luke but I like your points about how RotJ treats the Dark side of the force. I hate the idea that losing your temper and being angry is what makes you permanently turn to the dark side. To me, the dark side is a immoral use of power that is tempting to someone who wishes to abuse such power. It actually seemed like a constant moral challenge. But just because you resist giving into anger, you’re safe from the dark side???
I agree with SOME of what you say ShoppingMaul. Not really on Luke but I like your points about how RotJ treats the Dark side of the force. I hate the idea that losing your temper and being angry is what makes you permanently turn to the dark side. To me, the dark side is a immoral use of power that is tempting to someone who wishes to abuse such power. It actually seemed like a constant moral challenge. But just because you resist giving into anger, you’re safe from the dark side???
Where in ROTJ is it stated that losing your temper makes you permanently turn to the dark side? I’d argue it shows the opposite - as Vader turns back.
The only thing that would seem to qualify is when Ben mentions that Anakin “ceased to be,” but even then there’s nothing said that contradicts what you talk about, not one choice but many. What makes Luke’s resistance powerful is that “once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny.” There’ nothing in the film to indicate he’s safe from temptation forever, only that he faced this one challenge and came out like a true Jedi. There isn’t anything in the film that suggests there won’t be further challenges (except whatever implications you take from a fairy tale happy ending).
Gotta disagree with much of the rest of what ShoppingMaul said too. What makes Luke’s victory so powerful is that it technically wasn’t a traditional battle victory, but a victory enabled through reaching the heart and mind of Vader - which is much more the Jedi way. Luke was the last hope for the Jedi yes, but for the galaxy too, in the sense that the Jedi are the spirtual and ethical soul of the galaxy. Also, yes aggression is not the Jedi way, but fighting isn’t not necessarily the Jedi way (it depends on where you’re coming from).
I agree with SOME of what you say ShoppingMaul. Not really on Luke but I like your points about how RotJ treats the Dark side of the force. I hate the idea that losing your temper and being angry is what makes you permanently turn to the dark side. To me, the dark side is a immoral use of power that is tempting to someone who wishes to abuse such power. It actually seemed like a constant moral challenge. But just because you resist giving into anger, you’re safe from the dark side???
Where in ROTJ is it stated that losing your temper makes you permanently turn to the dark side? I’d argue it shows the opposite - as Vader turns back.
The only thing that would seem to qualify is when Ben mentions that Anakin “ceased to be,” but even then there’s nothing said that contradicts what you talk about, not one choice but many. What makes Luke’s resistance powerful is that “once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny.” There’ nothing in the film to indicate he’s safe from temptation forever, only that he faced this one challenge and came out like a true Jedi. There isn’t anything in the film that suggests there won’t be further challenges (except whatever implications you take from a fairy tale happy ending).
Gotta disagree with much of the rest of what ShoppingMaul said too. What makes Luke’s victory so powerful is that it technically wasn’t a traditional battle victory, but a victory enabled through reaching the heart and mind of Vader - which is much more the Jedi way. Luke was the last hope for the Jedi yes, but for the galaxy too, in the sense that the Jedi are the spirtual and ethical soul of the galaxy. Also, yes aggression is not the Jedi way, but fighting isn’t not necessarily the Jedi way (it depends on where you’re coming from).
I like this a lot. These are some good points.
I agree with SOME of what you say ShoppingMaul. Not really on Luke but I like your points about how RotJ treats the Dark side of the force. I hate the idea that losing your temper and being angry is what makes you permanently turn to the dark side. To me, the dark side is a immoral use of power that is tempting to someone who wishes to abuse such power. It actually seemed like a constant moral challenge. But just because you resist giving into anger, you’re safe from the dark side???
Also, where does anger begin and self-defence end? Why is Luke’s attempt to kill the Emperor somehow immoral yet Vader’s throwing the guy to his death somehow worthy of a spiritual pardon? If anything Vader’s reaction is more selfish.
Clearly I’m not Jedi material!
Arguably, Vader sacrificed himself to save Luke. Throwing Palpy down the shaft fried his life support system, and Vader probably knew getting that close to the Emperor while he was throwing lightning bolts around would likely be fatal.
And that, in the Star Wars universe, gets you off the hook for all your misdeeds. 😉
Where were you in '77?
I agree with SOME of what you say ShoppingMaul. Not really on Luke but I like your points about how RotJ treats the Dark side of the force. I hate the idea that losing your temper and being angry is what makes you permanently turn to the dark side. To me, the dark side is a immoral use of power that is tempting to someone who wishes to abuse such power. It actually seemed like a constant moral challenge. But just because you resist giving into anger, you’re safe from the dark side???
Where in ROTJ is it stated that losing your temper makes you permanently turn to the dark side? I’d argue it shows the opposite - as Vader turns back.
The only thing that would seem to qualify is when Ben mentions that Anakin “ceased to be,” but even then there’s nothing said that contradicts what you talk about, not one choice but many. What makes Luke’s resistance powerful is that “once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny.” There’ nothing in the film to indicate he’s safe from temptation forever, only that he faced this one challenge and came out like a true Jedi. There isn’t anything in the film that suggests there won’t be further challenges (except whatever implications you take from a fairy tale happy ending).
Gotta disagree with much of the rest of what ShoppingMaul said too. What makes Luke’s victory so powerful is that it technically wasn’t a traditional battle victory, but a victory enabled through reaching the heart and mind of Vader - which is much more the Jedi way. Luke was the last hope for the Jedi yes, but for the galaxy too, in the sense that the Jedi are the spirtual and ethical soul of the galaxy. Also, yes aggression is not the Jedi way, but fighting isn’t not necessarily the Jedi way (it depends on where you’re coming from).
How is Luke’s victory powerful? If Luke had simply died on the DS alongside Vader and Palpatine it wouldn’t have made a shred of difference. All Luke achieved was Vader’s redemption. Do you think anyone who had suffered at the hands of Vader and his Empire this past 20 years would have been praising Luke for giving Vader a last-minute spiritual pardon?
Why would anyone want a new Jedi Order post-RoTJ? Given the history with Palpatine and Vader, and given the fact that Jedi supposedly turn evil at the drop of a hat, wouldn’t it be better to forget the whole Jedi scene and let Leia form a just and secular government free from the potential threat of Midichlorian-rich egomaniacs?
One could argue Palpatine being focused on turning Luke distracted him from supervising the battle outside more closely.
In all the films to date, we’ve only seen three Jedi go bad. And only one of those was a master. Even if the Jedi ways were abandoned, that isn’t going to stop the Sith from popping up.
Where were you in '77?
One could argue Palpatine being focused on turning Luke distracted him from supervising the battle outside more closely.
In all the films to date, we’ve only seen three Jedi go bad. And only one of those was a master. Even if the Jedi ways were abandoned, that isn’t going to stop the Sith from popping up.
I see what you’re saying. I also see what RoTJ’s narrative intentions are, I just think it gets lost in its own logic (or lack thereof). In the SW universe circa RoTJ, the Jedi are mostly forgotten, and the only remnant of their passing is the Empire. It stands to reason that the idea of reintroducing the Jedi would not be well met.
Now RoTJ tells us that Luke destroyed the Emperor and paved the way for a new Jedi Order. This is the general idea in terms of how we, as fans, see it too. But if you strip away what we’ve been told, and look at what actually happened, RoTJ tells a different story. If Luke had had a decisive victory over Palpatine - and I mean a victory that would’ve actually resonated publicly - then it would be fair to assume that the galaxy would’ve happily embraced a new Jedi Order with Luke at its head.
But Luke’s ‘victory’ had no real-world repercussions. There’s no way he could’ve told everyone that Vader had been his father and that Vader had turned out to be a nice guy. Luke would’ve been lynched. All he really could’ve done was claim to have killed the Emperor himself in a way that definitely thwarted Palpatine’s potential escape from the battle. But this would’ve been a lie. Palpatine’s death was a lucky but unintended consequence of Vader’s change of heart. Nor is it clear that Palpatine (and Vader) wouldn’t have just been blown up with the Death Star anyway.
I just think Luke should’ve definitively killed the Emperor in a sense worthy of public acknowledgement, even if only by virtue of the whole episode occurring separately from the Death Star and with a measure of spoken intention on Luke’s part (ie Luke saying that he intended to confront the Emperor when he shared his plans with Leia instead of the whole “I just have to save Dad” bit). That way he would’ve been the guy who truly saved the galaxy - not just the guy who saved a war criminal’s soul and escaped to keep the old religion alive for no good reason. This would be a worthy springboard for a new Jedi Order as well as a satisfying conclusion to the whole ‘only hope’ thread of the previous films.
I would argue that Luke was responsible for the Emperor’s downfall simply by his presence. You say his actions didn’t have any tangible effect on the outcome of the Battle of Endor, but think about what happens when you take him out of the equation. Without Luke, the Empire simply steamrolls over the Rebel fleet well before they have the chance to take out the shield. Because he wants to seduce Luke, though, the Emperor draws it out like a cat playing with a mouse. Palpatine knows he can wring some drama and torment for Luke out of the situation and that this will render him more vulnerable to corruption, so he keeps it going way longer than he has to. Luke nails it when he says “your overconfidence is your weakness”. He knows that if he can hold the Emperor’s attention, his friends will have a chance to succeed that they wouldn’t otherwise. It’s easy to overlook it with all the Vader drama, but really Luke is playing for time.
And as for “unintended coincidences”, isn’t that kind of the Force’s whole MO? Luke’s goals are fulfilled in ways no one could have foreseen because he chooses the light and doubles down when given the chance to turn away. That Vader himself turns and the Emperor is destroyed as a result is an affirmation of the whole saga’s cosmology.
In-universe, the story of Luke redeeming his father (who was basically space Satan) was super fucking impressive, and spread far and wide. They talk about this in TLJ.
Also, from a story point of view, the smaller more emotional climax of him redeeming space Hitler is far more cathartic and interesting as an audience (at least to me).
If Luke replaced Wedge in the final battle and blew up the core of the Death Star, he may have made a more apparent strategic difference, but his arc from the whiny farmboy in the first movie would be incomplete. He wouldn’t have used any of his new skills or anything he learned as a character if he just blew up the place.
If I was gonna change anything about the Luke stuff in the movie, I would have made the Emperor actually tempt him a little, because nothing he offers actually truly budges Luke.
Possessed said:
But the emperor wasn’t there when he said that was he? Maybe I’m misremembering but I thought that line was when it was just him and Luke still on Endor.
Right, he’s still “around” though, right up on the Death Star. He’s firmly in the picture at this point, not worlds away. He can prob sense Vader’s emotions at that distance as well.
I would argue that Luke was responsible for the Emperor’s downfall simply by his presence. You say his actions didn’t have any tangible effect on the outcome of the Battle of Endor, but think about what happens when you take him out of the equation. Without Luke, the Empire simply steamrolls over the Rebel fleet well before they have the chance to take out the shield. Because he wants to seduce Luke, though, the Emperor draws it out like a cat playing with a mouse. Palpatine knows he can wring some drama and torment for Luke out of the situation and that this will render him more vulnerable to corruption, so he keeps it going way longer than he has to. Luke nails it when he says “your overconfidence is your weakness”. He knows that if he can hold the Emperor’s attention, his friends will have a chance to succeed that they wouldn’t otherwise. It’s easy to overlook it with all the Vader drama, but really Luke is playing for time.
And as for “unintended coincidences”, isn’t that kind of the Force’s whole MO? Luke’s goals are fulfilled in ways no one could have foreseen because he chooses the light and doubles down when given the chance to turn away. That Vader himself turns and the Emperor is destroyed as a result is an affirmation of the whole saga’s cosmology.
But even if this is true - the notion that Palpatine rolls out the DS laser in a melodramatic way rather than simply knock out the fleet instantly for example - this isn’t an argument for either Luke’s ‘plan’ or the notion of Jedi Knights being a useful idea. I like what you’re saying, but I wish this had actually been Luke’s expressed purpose. Luke tells Leia his only mission, apart from getting out of the way, is to save Vader. And his actions bear this out. Again, I can’t imagine a single citizen of the oppressed galaxy that would be thrilled to hear that Vader went out with a smile.
Or to put it this way - Luke’s expressed goal was to save Vader. Palpatine’s death was a by-product of this. I would have much preferred that Luke’s expressed goal was to face/defeat the Emperor, and that Vader’s redemption had been the by-product.
I’m not sure I understand what you mean by the ‘Force’s MO’, but then I don’t really get the ‘choosing the light’ thing either. Luke didn’t ‘choose the light’ when he blew up the first Death Star and slaughtered potentially millions of sentient beings - but it was the right thing to do. I genuinely don’t understand why total pacifism was suddenly Luke’s only moral recourse in RoTJ, or why anyone outside of the Skywalker drama would consider this useful under the circumstances.
It reminds me that my main issue with the Vader’s plot in ROTJ is the line “I MUST obey my Master”, whereas he explicitly told his son (and his wife !) that he would rather like kill the Emperor and rule the galaxy himself. Just removing that line and leaving only “you don’t know the power of the dark side” would make things work better I guess.
It’s just a slight complain: I know ROTJ is not the same top quality as ANH and TESB and has many problems here and there, but it still is a very good movie (and still the third best SW in my opinion), as a SW and as a fantasy flick.
It is the beginnings of the rule of two. The only way out from under Palpatine is to take his place. That is what Vader suggests. It is kinda the Sith mantra - come with me and we can rule the galaxy together. Palpatine changed it up by telling Anakin that if he followed him that they could save Padme together.
It reminds me that my main issue with the Vader’s plot in ROTJ is the line “I MUST obey my Master”, whereas he explicitly told his son (and his wife !) that he would rather like kill the Emperor and rule the galaxy himself. Just removing that line and leaving only “you don’t know the power of the dark side” would make things work better I guess.
It’s just a slight complain: I know ROTJ is not the same top quality as ANH and TESB and has many problems here and there, but it still is a very good movie (and still the third best SW in my opinion), as a SW and as a fantasy flick.
It is the beginnings of the rule of two. The only way out from under Palpatine is to take his place. That is what Vader suggests. It is kinda the Sith mantra - come with me and we can rule the galaxy together. Palpatine changed it up by telling Anakin that if he followed him that they could save Padme together.
But even the Sith ‘rule of two’ is dumb (sorry to be such a contrarian but my motives are pure!). Vader suggests luring Luke into the fold in TESB, clearly as a way of keeping Luke alive. Palps says “yes, he would be a great asset” and Vader says “he will join us or die”. There’s no indication that the ‘rule of two’ exists. It seems like a prequel thing that doesn’t really apply to the OT (unless you accept that Vader is a complete idiot in RoTJ).