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Politics 2: Electric Boogaloo — Page 827

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suspiciouscoffee said:

Could be quackery, but there is this.

That article brings up an important point… just because someone is an atheist doesn’t mean that they necessarily believe there isn’t a spiritual or higher realm, or even a creator. I consider myself an atheist, but I am quick to clarify that I haven’t a clue what is beyond our ability to sense or reason, and there absolutely could be a creator. I’m quite convinced that there are things beyond our ability to comprehend, and that there is a lot more to the “universe” than we are capable of knowing.

I even am quick to admit that Christianity (or Islam, or Buddhism, etc.) might be right. It might be possible to communicate with the creator through some sort of spiritual method, such as prayer. I might even catch myself saying a little prayer in a particularly stressful moment, as an instinctive product of my childhood upbringing.

However, I think that the greatest likelihood is that the existing religions are complete nonsense, and that the ancient texts so revered by them are utter fairy tales. I also believe that prayer is pointless, and that a presidential call to prayer is primitive. So, being completely un-persuaded by any theism, I would consider myself atheist. Maybe it will turn out that I’m wrong and I will burn in hell as a result. I think that the likelihood of that is vanishingly small. But it is a possibility.

"Close the blast doors!"
Puggo’s website | Rescuing Star Wars

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Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

suspiciouscoffee said:

Could be quackery, but there is this.

That article brings up an important point… just because someone is an atheist doesn’t mean that they necessarily believe there isn’t a spiritual or higher realm, or even a creator.

i think you’re referring to an ‘agnostic’ someone and not an ‘atheist’?

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Collipso said:

Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

suspiciouscoffee said:

Could be quackery, but there is this.

That article brings up an important point… just because someone is an atheist doesn’t mean that they necessarily believe there isn’t a spiritual or higher realm, or even a creator.

i think you’re referring to an ‘agnostic’ someone and not an ‘atheist’?

Right - I think that most people would categorize me as “agnostic”. However, I actually think that atheism is a more accurate label. The reason is that while I believe that there might be a creator, and I admit that one of the existing religions may be correct, I think that by far the greatest likelihood is that there isn’t a “creator” in any sense that we can conjure. More likely, the realm in which we exist is far more complex, and even the notion of a “creator” is laughably primitive, and that we aren’t even asking the right questions (nor are we capable). I also think that our scientific method would be considered quaint by a more intelligent being, although I think that higher forms of “science” are far more likely to reveal answers than any spiritual method. In other words, I don’t KNOW if there is or isn’t a God, but I very much suspect that there isn’t.

I’ll also add my belief that science must necessarily always leave the door open a crack by admitting there is a remote possibility for things like prayer, God, etc., to be true, but it doesn’t follow that scientists are therefore agnostics by definition.

"Close the blast doors!"
Puggo’s website | Rescuing Star Wars

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a·the·ism
ˈāTHēˌizəm/Submit
noun
noun: atheism
disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.
synonyms: nonbelief, disbelief, unbelief, irreligion, skepticism, doubt, agnosticism; nihilism

ag·nos·tic
aɡˈnästik/Submit
noun
plural noun: agnostics
a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.
synonyms: skeptic, doubter, doubting Thomas, cynic; More

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I have no reason to believe that a god exists so I don’t believe that one exists. I do have reason to believe the Christian God doesn’t exist because the claims made about him in the Christian scriptures are inconsistent and incompatible with history and today’s morality.

The Person in Question

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Warbler said:

a·the·ism
ˈāTHēˌizəm/Submit
noun
noun: atheism
disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.
synonyms: nonbelief, disbelief, unbelief, irreligion, skepticism, doubt, agnosticism; nihilism

ag·nos·tic
aɡˈnästik/Submit
noun
plural noun: agnostics
a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.
synonyms: skeptic, doubter, doubting Thomas, cynic; More

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheism

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 (Edited)

Warbler said:

a·the·ism
ˈāTHēˌizəm/Submit
noun
noun: atheism
disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.
synonyms: nonbelief, disbelief, unbelief, irreligion, skepticism, doubt, agnosticism; nihilism

ag·nos·tic
aɡˈnästik/Submit
noun
plural noun: agnostics
a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.
synonyms: skeptic, doubter, doubting Thomas, cynic; More

Dictionary definitions are one thing, cultural assumptions are another. Often people think an agnostic is someone on the fence who can be swayed one way or another. Which is why many just identify as aetheist - they’re not going to claim they know without a single doubt there is no God, but they’re not religious in any way and live life as if there almost definitely isn’t.

I hate labels either way. Once you say you’re one thing or another people start to assume things about your beliefs. In my mind, saying you’re atheist shouldn’t imply anything except that you’re not religious and don’t believe in God. But some people think as if it’s a religion itself.

As for the president asking citizens to pray, it’s obviously not a big deal, but it is one of the many ways religion has wrongfully ingrained itself in our government. So yeah, it’s not a big deal, but it’s not completely okay either.

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Atheism is definitely NOT a religion, in my opinion. People even say that science is a religion, but that is even less true. Religion generally includes one or more articles of faith, and that is one thing that science has no place for. In science nothing is sacred, and anything “proven” today can be disproven tomorrow. Science strives to offer the best explanation given the limits of current measurement tools and analytical techniques. Thus its conclusions can change as tools and techniques improve. It is ironic that a highly educated scientist is less certain about his knowledge than is an uneducated but devout religious person. That is the nature of faith, and what in my mind fundamentally distinguishes atheism, agnosticism, and science from religion.

"Close the blast doors!"
Puggo’s website | Rescuing Star Wars

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Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

Atheism is definitely NOT a religion, in my opinion. People even say that science is a religion, but that is even less true. Religion generally includes one or more articles of faith, and that is one thing that science has no place for. In science nothing is sacred, and anything “proven” today can be disproven tomorrow. Science strives to offer the best explanation given the limits of current measurement tools and analytical techniques. Thus its conclusions can change as tools and techniques improve. It is ironic that a highly educated scientist is less certain about his knowledge than is an uneducated but devout religious person. That is the nature of faith, and what in my mind fundamentally distinguishes atheism, agnosticism, and science from religion.

Yep

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Calling atheism a religion is stupid. Theism is not a religion either. Most religions are obviously theistic, and few are atheistic, but lacking a belief in a god or gods is in no way a religious stance.

The Person in Question

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DominicCobb said:

Warbler said:

a·the·ism
ˈāTHēˌizəm/Submit
noun
noun: atheism
disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.
synonyms: nonbelief, disbelief, unbelief, irreligion, skepticism, doubt, agnosticism; nihilism

ag·nos·tic
aɡˈnästik/Submit
noun
plural noun: agnostics
a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.
synonyms: skeptic, doubter, doubting Thomas, cynic; More

Dictionary definitions are one thing, cultural assumptions are another. Often people think an agnostic is someone on the fence who can be swayed one way or another. Which is why many just identify as aetheist - they’re not going to claim they know without a single doubt there is no God, but they’re not religious in any way and live life as if there almost definitely isn’t.

I hate labels either way. Once you say you’re one thing or another people start to assume things about your beliefs. In my mind, saying you’re atheist shouldn’t imply anything except that you’re not religious and don’t believe in God. But some people think as if it’s a religion itself.

As for the president asking citizens to pray, it’s obviously not a big deal, but it is one of the many ways religion has wrongfully ingrained itself in our government. So yeah, it’s not a big deal, but it’s not completely okay either.

Words have definitions.

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DuracellEnergizer said:

Warbler said:

a·the·ism
ˈāTHēˌizəm/Submit
noun
noun: atheism
disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.
synonyms: nonbelief, disbelief, unbelief, irreligion, skepticism, doubt, agnosticism; nihilism

ag·nos·tic
aɡˈnästik/Submit
noun
plural noun: agnostics
a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.
synonyms: skeptic, doubter, doubting Thomas, cynic; More

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheism

ok.

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moviefreakedmind said:

Calling atheism a religion is stupid. Theism is not a religion either. Most religions are obviously theistic, and few are atheistic, but lacking a belief in a god or gods is in no way a religious stance.

You’re at least somewhat wrong. Atheism has been been treated as religion by the courts. The courts don’t really want to decide what exactly what constitutes a religion but they have said that beliefs concerning a deity (pro or con) are protected as free exercise of religion. You’re right in the sense that even the courts have not declared atheism itself to be a religion.

In a case where prisoners claimed a religious right to have an atheist study group, the court wrote:

The Supreme Court has said that a religion, for purposes of the First Amendment, is distinct from a “way of life,” even if that way of life is inspired by philosophical beliefs or other secular concerns.

A religion need not be based on a belief in the existence of a supreme being (or beings, for polytheistic faiths), nor must it be a mainstream faith.

Without venturing too far into the realm of the philosophical, we have suggested in the past that when a person sincerely holds beliefs dealing with issues of “ultimate concern” that for her occupy a “place parallel to that filled by God in traditionally religious persons,” those beliefs represent her religion.

We have already indicated that atheism may be considered, in this specialized sense, a religion. (“If we think of religion as taking a position on divinity, then atheism is indeed a form of religion.”).

I’m not sure if I agree with all that or not. A whole lot of things can be asserted as religion under that analysis that may not belong. And yet, it provides protections for people to pursue beliefs concerning matters that are in the religious realm.

[Promise I’ll be more “out of pocket” soon.]

The blue elephant in the room.

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I said it was stupid. Free exercise of religion includes your freedom not to exercise a religion.

The Person in Question

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Warbler said:

DominicCobb said:

Warbler said:

a·the·ism
ˈāTHēˌizəm/Submit
noun
noun: atheism
disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.
synonyms: nonbelief, disbelief, unbelief, irreligion, skepticism, doubt, agnosticism; nihilism

ag·nos·tic
aɡˈnästik/Submit
noun
plural noun: agnostics
a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.
synonyms: skeptic, doubter, doubting Thomas, cynic; More

Dictionary definitions are one thing, cultural assumptions are another. Often people think an agnostic is someone on the fence who can be swayed one way or another. Which is why many just identify as aetheist - they’re not going to claim they know without a single doubt there is no God, but they’re not religious in any way and live life as if there almost definitely isn’t.

I hate labels either way. Once you say you’re one thing or another people start to assume things about your beliefs. In my mind, saying you’re atheist shouldn’t imply anything except that you’re not religious and don’t believe in God. But some people think as if it’s a religion itself.

As for the president asking citizens to pray, it’s obviously not a big deal, but it is one of the many ways religion has wrongfully ingrained itself in our government. So yeah, it’s not a big deal, but it’s not completely okay either.

Words have definitions.

Definitions also evolve.

The Person in Question

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Time
 (Edited)

Warbler said:

DominicCobb said:

Warbler said:

a·the·ism
ˈāTHēˌizəm/Submit
noun
noun: atheism
disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.
synonyms: nonbelief, disbelief, unbelief, irreligion, skepticism, doubt, agnosticism; nihilism

ag·nos·tic
aɡˈnästik/Submit
noun
plural noun: agnostics
a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.
synonyms: skeptic, doubter, doubting Thomas, cynic; More

Dictionary definitions are one thing, cultural assumptions are another. Often people think an agnostic is someone on the fence who can be swayed one way or another. Which is why many just identify as aetheist - they’re not going to claim they know without a single doubt there is no God, but they’re not religious in any way and live life as if there almost definitely isn’t.

I hate labels either way. Once you say you’re one thing or another people start to assume things about your beliefs. In my mind, saying you’re atheist shouldn’t imply anything except that you’re not religious and don’t believe in God. But some people think as if it’s a religion itself.

As for the president asking citizens to pray, it’s obviously not a big deal, but it is one of the many ways religion has wrongfully ingrained itself in our government. So yeah, it’s not a big deal, but it’s not completely okay either.

Words have definitions.

Words also have connotations, misunderstandings, and, of course, more than one specific definition.

Ultimately, it comes down to this for me. I think being an agnostic is just a subset of atheism (or of theism, depending on where you’re leaning, this is where the more specific definitions come in). So when I identify as an atheist (which I don’t often do, sometimes I just say I’m not religious), I don’t think I’m really ignoring anything but the strictest definitions of the word. I tend not to identify as an agnostic because that brings along with it certain assumptions that aren’t in Merriam Webster and don’t apply to me.

Words have meaning beyond what’s written in the dictionary.

Author
Time

moviefreakedmind said:

Warbler said:

DominicCobb said:

Warbler said:

a·the·ism
ˈāTHēˌizəm/Submit
noun
noun: atheism
disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.
synonyms: nonbelief, disbelief, unbelief, irreligion, skepticism, doubt, agnosticism; nihilism

ag·nos·tic
aɡˈnästik/Submit
noun
plural noun: agnostics
a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.
synonyms: skeptic, doubter, doubting Thomas, cynic; More

Dictionary definitions are one thing, cultural assumptions are another. Often people think an agnostic is someone on the fence who can be swayed one way or another. Which is why many just identify as aetheist - they’re not going to claim they know without a single doubt there is no God, but they’re not religious in any way and live life as if there almost definitely isn’t.

I hate labels either way. Once you say you’re one thing or another people start to assume things about your beliefs. In my mind, saying you’re atheist shouldn’t imply anything except that you’re not religious and don’t believe in God. But some people think as if it’s a religion itself.

As for the president asking citizens to pray, it’s obviously not a big deal, but it is one of the many ways religion has wrongfully ingrained itself in our government. So yeah, it’s not a big deal, but it’s not completely okay either.

Words have definitions.

Definitions also evolve.

And then dictionaries update the definitions. I wasn’t aware the source I used (google) was out of date.

Author
Time

DominicCobb said:

Warbler said:

DominicCobb said:

Warbler said:

a·the·ism
ˈāTHēˌizəm/Submit
noun
noun: atheism
disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.
synonyms: nonbelief, disbelief, unbelief, irreligion, skepticism, doubt, agnosticism; nihilism

ag·nos·tic
aɡˈnästik/Submit
noun
plural noun: agnostics
a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.
synonyms: skeptic, doubter, doubting Thomas, cynic; More

Dictionary definitions are one thing, cultural assumptions are another. Often people think an agnostic is someone on the fence who can be swayed one way or another. Which is why many just identify as aetheist - they’re not going to claim they know without a single doubt there is no God, but they’re not religious in any way and live life as if there almost definitely isn’t.

I hate labels either way. Once you say you’re one thing or another people start to assume things about your beliefs. In my mind, saying you’re atheist shouldn’t imply anything except that you’re not religious and don’t believe in God. But some people think as if it’s a religion itself.

As for the president asking citizens to pray, it’s obviously not a big deal, but it is one of the many ways religion has wrongfully ingrained itself in our government. So yeah, it’s not a big deal, but it’s not completely okay either.

Words have definitions.

Words also have connotations, misunderstandings, and, of course, more than one specific definition.

Ultimately, it comes down to this for me. I think being an agnostic is just a subset of atheism (or of theism, depending on where you’re leaning, this is where the more specific definitions come in). So when I identify as an atheist (which I don’t often do, sometimes I just say I’m not religious), I don’t think I’m really ignoring anything but the strictest definitions of the word. I tend not to identify as an agnostic because that brings along with it certain assumptions that aren’t in Merriam Webster and don’t apply to me.

Words have meaning beyond what’s written in the dictionary.

Maybe, but dictionary definitions shouldn’t be ignored. Otherwise, words don’t have any real meaning and they just mean whatever each individual wants them to mean. What if I tried to call myself an athiest? How would you show I was wrong to do that? By showing me the definition, that’s how. Words have definitions.

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Time

Warbler said:

DominicCobb said:

Warbler said:

DominicCobb said:

Warbler said:

a·the·ism
ˈāTHēˌizəm/Submit
noun
noun: atheism
disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.
synonyms: nonbelief, disbelief, unbelief, irreligion, skepticism, doubt, agnosticism; nihilism

ag·nos·tic
aɡˈnästik/Submit
noun
plural noun: agnostics
a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.
synonyms: skeptic, doubter, doubting Thomas, cynic; More

Dictionary definitions are one thing, cultural assumptions are another. Often people think an agnostic is someone on the fence who can be swayed one way or another. Which is why many just identify as aetheist - they’re not going to claim they know without a single doubt there is no God, but they’re not religious in any way and live life as if there almost definitely isn’t.

I hate labels either way. Once you say you’re one thing or another people start to assume things about your beliefs. In my mind, saying you’re atheist shouldn’t imply anything except that you’re not religious and don’t believe in God. But some people think as if it’s a religion itself.

As for the president asking citizens to pray, it’s obviously not a big deal, but it is one of the many ways religion has wrongfully ingrained itself in our government. So yeah, it’s not a big deal, but it’s not completely okay either.

Words have definitions.

Words also have connotations, misunderstandings, and, of course, more than one specific definition.

Ultimately, it comes down to this for me. I think being an agnostic is just a subset of atheism (or of theism, depending on where you’re leaning, this is where the more specific definitions come in). So when I identify as an atheist (which I don’t often do, sometimes I just say I’m not religious), I don’t think I’m really ignoring anything but the strictest definitions of the word. I tend not to identify as an agnostic because that brings along with it certain assumptions that aren’t in Merriam Webster and don’t apply to me.

Words have meaning beyond what’s written in the dictionary.

Maybe, but dictionary definitions shouldn’t be ignored. Otherwise, words don’t have any real meaning and they just mean whatever each individual wants them to mean. What if I tried to call myself an athiest? How would you show I was wrong to do that? By showing me the definition, that’s how. Words have definitions.

Words can have multiple definitions, which logically would mean whenever you use a word there is a decent chance you could be ignoring one or more dictionary definitions. Some definitions are more relevant than others. Being able to parse that doesn’t mean ignoring the concept of dictionary definitions entirely.

And if one is to understand and communicate with others at an intelligent level, they must realize there’s more to words than what’s in the dictionary. Keep in mind, most people aren’t familiar with exact dictionary definitions. Because the dictionary only defines what people have determined to be things’ meanings… until meanings evolve and the dictionary changes to fit.

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In the event a word has multiple meanings, a good dictionary would give all of the multiple meanings.

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 (Edited)

Lacking a belief in a god or gods doesn’t mean that someone is 100% certain about that fact. I call myself an atheist because I don’t believe in a god. I choose not to say I’m agnostic because, as others have pointed out, the word agnostic these days implies being in the middle between theism and atheism and I’m not. I have no reason to believe in any god so I don’t. I don’t believe. I have no reason to believe that aliens are monitoring the human species. I don’t believe that’s happening, but I’m not 100% certain. I don’t feel the need to preface every statement with that caveat.

The Person in Question