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Is Revenge of the Sith the Best or Worst Prequel? — Page 7

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 (Edited)

Creox said:

snooker said:

Supposedly Watto’s accent is ‘Italian’

0_O

There are a few Mario-like stereotypical intonations in Watto’s speech. Even his word endings can come off as stereotypically Italian at times.

The real problem with the PT accents is that there’s only so many sounds and intonations to take from, so it’s bound to resemble something.

I’m sure Ahmed Best added some of his own to Jar Jar (or at least something he was familiar with). Then Brian Blessed interpreted Best’s accent with his own deeper voice, which results in intonations and inflections that can come off as cartoonishly Jamaican at times. Gen. Tarpals actually sounds Japanese at times. His tone of voice and inflections sound very Samurai-like some sentences, then suddenly the dialogue takes on certain South African-like sounds. Seriously, listen to Tarpals first few lines in TPM. It’s a hodgepodge of several accents.

Star Wars is Surrealism, not Science Fiction (essay)
Original Trilogy Documentaries/Making-Ofs (YouTube, Vimeo, etc. finds)
Beyond the OT Documentaries/Making-Ofs (YouTube, Vimeo, etc. finds)
Amazon link to my novel; Dawn of the Karabu.

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DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

ZkinandBonez said:

“West-Indian accent”? I though Jar Jar was supposed to sound Creole. And previously in this thread his accent was described as resembling Jamaican. This is really why the Jar Jar criticism confuses me so much. People can never agree on how exactly he is offensive. Also this is literally the first time I’ve heard mention of Jar Jar’s “buttocks”, and what does that have to do with Indians?

Also when was “crafty Japanese trade villains” ever a thing? I’ve heard people make ‘yellow peril’ comparisons, but apart from the accent (which the voice actor based on Philippino I belive) there’s not much about them that resembles any Asian cultures. Not that I’m aware of at least.

LoL

Well, sure but the point is that Jar Jar sounds decidedly stereotyped in that fashion. Be it Caribbean or Jamaican they all have a very noticeable trait that is very much human being of color. The trade federation have very obvious, thick Asian accents with large slitted eyes…they walk around like Geishas with their hands folded in front of them. I took the “crafty” in that phrase to just illustrate they were stereotypes that were cast as villains. Nothing more. Yellow peril certainly would fit that stereotype.

Watto and Jewish is ( I hope) not in need of an explanation?

Large slitted eyes…that’s a contradiction in terms if I ever saw one.

Obviously Asian…

The alien on the right is definitely Asian in facial characteristics but that is not the only trait I’m talking about. At any rate it is not important for my basic premise to be true. Many thought similarly, including the persons in the piece I linked. All my friends felt this way at the first viewing.

Yes, but the fact that many thought similarly doesn’t make it true.

Really? How does that make sense? If one person or a few dozen thought this then you might have a case. The debate over this issue in general with the TPM and the PT is well known and well documented. As noted before, I don’t believe Lucas was going out of his way here but To say this has no legs is just false.

Watto in the next movie has a small beard and hat that looks decidedly Hasidic. Am I really just imagining this? Seriously?

Humans see patterns in things that simply aren’t there. It is our nature.

Is the cloud deliberately or subconciously attempting to look like Winnie the Poo, or is it all in the eyes of the beholder?

Actually that is a cloud that looks very much like Winnie the Pooh. Not sure how that helps your case.

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Creox said:

SilverWook said:

Looks more like a WWI helmet or a hubcap to me. YMMV.

Like this guys hubcap?

You guys are sure going out of your way here.

It’s open to interpretation. I have a hard time believing anybody working on the prequels would deliberately use a Jewish stereotype as a greedy alien junkyard dealer.

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Where were you in '77?

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ZkinandBonez said:

Creox said:

snooker said:

Supposedly Watto’s accent is ‘Italian’

0_O

There are a few Mario-like stereotypical intonations in Watto’s speech. Even his word ending can cone off as stereotypically Italian.

The real problem with the PT accents is that there’s only so many sounds and intonations to take from, so it’s bound to resemble something.

I’m sure Ahmed Best added some of his own to Jar Jar. Then Brian Blessed interpreted Best’s accent with his own deeper voice, which results in intonations and inflections that can come off as cartoonishly Jamaican at times. Gen. Tarpals actually sounds Japanese at times. His tone of voice and inflections sound very Samurai-like some sentences, then suddenly the dialogue takes on certain South African-like sounds. Seriously, listen to Tarpals first few lines in TPM. It’s a hodgepodge of several accents.

You make a good point but what it illustrates to me is that Lucas and his design team were using cliched sounds and images to reflect a villain or hero etc that ended up not being the sum of what they wanted. There is no doubt in my mind that the trade federation species used Chinese/Japanese traits in language, dress, gait and manner when being created. Not a mirror image but (like Jar Jar) an amalgamation of them to create an alien species. Watto is so Hasidic looking in that bearded picture with his hat that Lucas Arts should have discarded the idea just out the odd chance someone would notice the similarity. Again, not a mirror image but enough traits of cliched stereotypes as to be very noticeable.

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SilverWook said:

Creox said:

SilverWook said:

Looks more like a WWI helmet or a hubcap to me. YMMV.

Like this guys hubcap?

You guys are sure going out of your way here.

It’s open to interpretation. I have a hard time believing anybody working on the prequels would deliberately use a Jewish stereotype as a greedy alien junkyard dealer.

I don’t think there were either…FTR. I just think they were using images and cliches that they thought would help tell their story. They just should have done more thinking before they finalized it. It was bad enough that many people thought the same as I and that’s a few too many don’t ya think?

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If that’s the case, where are they getting those images and cliches from? Based on the BTS footage, most of the people working in the film in the design and FX department look pretty young at the time. Under 40 at least.

Forum Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

ZkinandBonez said:

“West-Indian accent”? I though Jar Jar was supposed to sound Creole. And previously in this thread his accent was described as resembling Jamaican. This is really why the Jar Jar criticism confuses me so much. People can never agree on how exactly he is offensive. Also this is literally the first time I’ve heard mention of Jar Jar’s “buttocks”, and what does that have to do with Indians?

Also when was “crafty Japanese trade villains” ever a thing? I’ve heard people make ‘yellow peril’ comparisons, but apart from the accent (which the voice actor based on Philippino I belive) there’s not much about them that resembles any Asian cultures. Not that I’m aware of at least.

LoL

Well, sure but the point is that Jar Jar sounds decidedly stereotyped in that fashion. Be it Caribbean or Jamaican they all have a very noticeable trait that is very much human being of color. The trade federation have very obvious, thick Asian accents with large slitted eyes…they walk around like Geishas with their hands folded in front of them. I took the “crafty” in that phrase to just illustrate they were stereotypes that were cast as villains. Nothing more. Yellow peril certainly would fit that stereotype.

Watto and Jewish is ( I hope) not in need of an explanation?

Large slitted eyes…that’s a contradiction in terms if I ever saw one.

Obviously Asian…

The alien on the right is definitely Asian in facial characteristics but that is not the only trait I’m talking about. At any rate it is not important for my basic premise to be true. Many thought similarly, including the persons in the piece I linked. All my friends felt this way at the first viewing.

Yes, but the fact that many thought similarly doesn’t make it true.

Really? How does that make sense? If one person or a few dozen thought this then you might have a case. The debate over this issue in general with the TPM and the PT is well known and well documented. As noted before, I don’t believe Lucas was going out of his way here but To say this has no legs is just false.

Watto in the next movie has a small beard and hat that looks decidedly Hasidic. Am I really just imagining this? Seriously?

Is the cloud deliberately or subconciously attempting to look like Winnie the Poo, or is it all in the eyes of the beholder?

You got me fucked up if you think that cloud isn’t 100% Winnie the Pooh. I’m on your side in this argument I never even heard of this racism in TPM thing until a couple of years ago, probably on this site, (Although apparently it’s been said alot) and I think it’s definitely reaching. But that cloud has me shook. Pooh. Is. In. The. Sky.

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In China, seeing Pooh in the clouds can probably get you arrested. 😉

Forum Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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 (Edited)

Creox said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

ZkinandBonez said:

“West-Indian accent”? I though Jar Jar was supposed to sound Creole. And previously in this thread his accent was described as resembling Jamaican. This is really why the Jar Jar criticism confuses me so much. People can never agree on how exactly he is offensive. Also this is literally the first time I’ve heard mention of Jar Jar’s “buttocks”, and what does that have to do with Indians?

Also when was “crafty Japanese trade villains” ever a thing? I’ve heard people make ‘yellow peril’ comparisons, but apart from the accent (which the voice actor based on Philippino I belive) there’s not much about them that resembles any Asian cultures. Not that I’m aware of at least.

LoL

Well, sure but the point is that Jar Jar sounds decidedly stereotyped in that fashion. Be it Caribbean or Jamaican they all have a very noticeable trait that is very much human being of color. The trade federation have very obvious, thick Asian accents with large slitted eyes…they walk around like Geishas with their hands folded in front of them. I took the “crafty” in that phrase to just illustrate they were stereotypes that were cast as villains. Nothing more. Yellow peril certainly would fit that stereotype.

Watto and Jewish is ( I hope) not in need of an explanation?

Large slitted eyes…that’s a contradiction in terms if I ever saw one.

Obviously Asian…

The alien on the right is definitely Asian in facial characteristics but that is not the only trait I’m talking about. At any rate it is not important for my basic premise to be true. Many thought similarly, including the persons in the piece I linked. All my friends felt this way at the first viewing.

Yes, but the fact that many thought similarly doesn’t make it true.

Really? How does that make sense? If one person or a few dozen thought this then you might have a case. The debate over this issue in general with the TPM and the PT is well known and well documented. As noted before, I don’t believe Lucas was going out of his way here but To say this has no legs is just false.

Watto in the next movie has a small beard and hat that looks decidedly Hasidic. Am I really just imagining this? Seriously?

Humans see patterns in things that simply aren’t there. It is our nature.

Is the cloud deliberately or subconciously attempting to look like Winnie the Poo, or is it all in the eyes of the beholder?

Actually that is a cloud that looks very much like Winnie the Pooh. Not sure how that helps your case.

You’re missing the point. Looks like and is are two different things. The cloud looks like Winnie the Pooh, because we through our history associate the shape with Winnie the Pooh, but the cloud isn’t Winnie the Pooh. The cloud doesn’t look like Winnie the Pooh by design. It’s just incidental. In the same way some of us see racial stereotypes in some of Lucas’ characters, but that is not the same as them being racial stereotypes. The characters don’t look like racial stereotypes by design. It’s just incidental. We think we see a pattern, but it isn’t there. We think we see Winnie the Pooh, but it’s just a cloud that for no reason whatsoever shares some similarities with Winnie the Pooh. To me those here that try to convince me, that Neimoidians are Asian, and Jar Jar a black dude, are trying to convince me that the cloud is actually Winnie the Pooh. The fact that some of these characters share some vague similarities with racial stereotypes (along with plenty of differences) doesn’t make them racial stereotypes.

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Man, I can’t keep up with this thread with how sporadic my forum time has been lately, but…

Chewielewis said:

I don’t think I would call TPM well crafted.

I never said it was well-crafted, I said it was more well-crafted than AOTC or ROTS, which is a pretty low bar.

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DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

ZkinandBonez said:

“West-Indian accent”? I though Jar Jar was supposed to sound Creole. And previously in this thread his accent was described as resembling Jamaican. This is really why the Jar Jar criticism confuses me so much. People can never agree on how exactly he is offensive. Also this is literally the first time I’ve heard mention of Jar Jar’s “buttocks”, and what does that have to do with Indians?

Also when was “crafty Japanese trade villains” ever a thing? I’ve heard people make ‘yellow peril’ comparisons, but apart from the accent (which the voice actor based on Philippino I belive) there’s not much about them that resembles any Asian cultures. Not that I’m aware of at least.

LoL

Well, sure but the point is that Jar Jar sounds decidedly stereotyped in that fashion. Be it Caribbean or Jamaican they all have a very noticeable trait that is very much human being of color. The trade federation have very obvious, thick Asian accents with large slitted eyes…they walk around like Geishas with their hands folded in front of them. I took the “crafty” in that phrase to just illustrate they were stereotypes that were cast as villains. Nothing more. Yellow peril certainly would fit that stereotype.

Watto and Jewish is ( I hope) not in need of an explanation?

Large slitted eyes…that’s a contradiction in terms if I ever saw one.

Obviously Asian…

The alien on the right is definitely Asian in facial characteristics but that is not the only trait I’m talking about. At any rate it is not important for my basic premise to be true. Many thought similarly, including the persons in the piece I linked. All my friends felt this way at the first viewing.

Yes, but the fact that many thought similarly doesn’t make it true.

Really? How does that make sense? If one person or a few dozen thought this then you might have a case. The debate over this issue in general with the TPM and the PT is well known and well documented. As noted before, I don’t believe Lucas was going out of his way here but To say this has no legs is just false.

Watto in the next movie has a small beard and hat that looks decidedly Hasidic. Am I really just imagining this? Seriously?

Humans see patterns in things that simply aren’t there. It is our nature.

Is the cloud deliberately or subconciously attempting to look like Winnie the Poo, or is it all in the eyes of the beholder?

Actually that is a cloud that looks very much like Winnie the Pooh. Not sure how that helps your case.

You’re missing the point. Looks like and is are two different things. The cloud looks like Winnie the Pooh, because we through our history associate the shape with Winnie the Pooh, but the cloud isn’t Winnie the Pooh. The cloud doesn’t look like Winnie the Pooh by design. It’s just incidental. In the same way some of us see racial stereotypes in some of Lucas’ characters, but that is not the same as them being racial stereotypes. The characters don’t look like racial stereotypes by design. It’s just incidental. We think we see a pattern, but it isn’t there. We think we see Winnie the Pooh, but it’s just a cloud that for no reason whatsoever shares some similarities with Winnie the Pooh. To me those here that try to convince me, that Neimoidians are Asian, and Jar Jar a black dude, are trying to convince me that the cloud is actually Winnie the Pooh. The fact that some of these characters share some vague similarities with racial stereotypes (along with plenty of differences) doesn’t make them racial stereotypes.

I understand what point you are trying to make but it doesn’t ring true for me. I know the cloud is not Winnie the Pooh…but anyone who has ever seen the character would immediately recognize the formation as that bear in a heart beat. Many who have seen and heard a racist stereotype of an Asian or Jew would recognize and have recognized Watto and the Neimoidians. Jar Jar is less recognizable as a single stereotype but enough of one that many people see it and have commented on it. Fetchit reflects part of his demeanor, speech and gait but his accent strikes me as mostly creole tbh. I think Lucas was genuinely taken aback by any criticisms in this regard and appeared pretty pissed off about it understandably but that doesn’t mean the stereotypes are not visible and audible to many people.

Regardless, how one thinks or interprets an image or portrayal is an important aspect of art compared to how that image or portrayal was originally intended. It is arrogant imo to suggest that what people see and hear is “not there” though, Dre. To me they are as obvious as that bear looking EXACTLY like Pooh. I am truly puzzled how these caricatures got by the the design team and Lucas, frankly. I just think they were a bit lazy in trying to come up with these characters and/or thought using cliches would send the message they wanted with respects to who the villains were, who the sidekick was…who knows. I don’t think there was any conscious effort to appear racist but insensitive? Yeah.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Creox said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

ZkinandBonez said:

“West-Indian accent”? I though Jar Jar was supposed to sound Creole. And previously in this thread his accent was described as resembling Jamaican. This is really why the Jar Jar criticism confuses me so much. People can never agree on how exactly he is offensive. Also this is literally the first time I’ve heard mention of Jar Jar’s “buttocks”, and what does that have to do with Indians?

Also when was “crafty Japanese trade villains” ever a thing? I’ve heard people make ‘yellow peril’ comparisons, but apart from the accent (which the voice actor based on Philippino I belive) there’s not much about them that resembles any Asian cultures. Not that I’m aware of at least.

LoL

Well, sure but the point is that Jar Jar sounds decidedly stereotyped in that fashion. Be it Caribbean or Jamaican they all have a very noticeable trait that is very much human being of color. The trade federation have very obvious, thick Asian accents with large slitted eyes…they walk around like Geishas with their hands folded in front of them. I took the “crafty” in that phrase to just illustrate they were stereotypes that were cast as villains. Nothing more. Yellow peril certainly would fit that stereotype.

Watto and Jewish is ( I hope) not in need of an explanation?

Large slitted eyes…that’s a contradiction in terms if I ever saw one.

Obviously Asian…

The alien on the right is definitely Asian in facial characteristics but that is not the only trait I’m talking about. At any rate it is not important for my basic premise to be true. Many thought similarly, including the persons in the piece I linked. All my friends felt this way at the first viewing.

Yes, but the fact that many thought similarly doesn’t make it true.

Really? How does that make sense? If one person or a few dozen thought this then you might have a case. The debate over this issue in general with the TPM and the PT is well known and well documented. As noted before, I don’t believe Lucas was going out of his way here but To say this has no legs is just false.

Watto in the next movie has a small beard and hat that looks decidedly Hasidic. Am I really just imagining this? Seriously?

Humans see patterns in things that simply aren’t there. It is our nature.

Is the cloud deliberately or subconciously attempting to look like Winnie the Poo, or is it all in the eyes of the beholder?

Actually that is a cloud that looks very much like Winnie the Pooh. Not sure how that helps your case.

You’re missing the point. Looks like and is are two different things. The cloud looks like Winnie the Pooh, because we through our history associate the shape with Winnie the Pooh, but the cloud isn’t Winnie the Pooh. The cloud doesn’t look like Winnie the Pooh by design. It’s just incidental. In the same way some of us see racial stereotypes in some of Lucas’ characters, but that is not the same as them being racial stereotypes. The characters don’t look like racial stereotypes by design. It’s just incidental. We think we see a pattern, but it isn’t there. We think we see Winnie the Pooh, but it’s just a cloud that for no reason whatsoever shares some similarities with Winnie the Pooh. To me those here that try to convince me, that Neimoidians are Asian, and Jar Jar a black dude, are trying to convince me that the cloud is actually Winnie the Pooh. The fact that some of these characters share some vague similarities with racial stereotypes (along with plenty of differences) doesn’t make them racial stereotypes.

I understand what point you are trying to make but it doesn’t ring true for me. I know the cloud is not Winnie the Pooh…but anyone who has ever seen the character would immediately recognize the formation as that bear in a heart beat. Many who have seen and heard a racist stereotype of an Asian or Jew would recognize and have recognized Watto and the Neimoidians. Jar Jar is less recognizable as a single stereotype but enough of one that many people see it and have commented on it. Fetchit reflects part of his demeanor, speech and gait but his accent strikes me as mostly creole tbh. I think Lucas was genuinely taken aback by any criticisms in this regard and appeared pretty pissed off about it understandably but that doesn’t mean the stereotypes are not visible and audible to many people.

Regardless, how one thinks or interprets an image or portrayal is an important aspect of art compared to how that image or portrayal was originally intended. It is arrogant imo to suggest that what people see and hear is “not there” though, Dre. To me they are as obvious as that bear looking EXACTLY like Pooh. I am truly puzzled how these caricatures got by the the design team and Lucas, frankly. I just think they were a bit lazy in trying to come up with these characters and/or thought using cliches would send the message they wanted with respects to who the villains were, who the sidekick was…who knows. I don’t think there was any conscious effort to appear racist but insensitive? Yeah.

To me anyone is innocent until proven guilty, and pointing to some circumstantial evidence and fitting it into a narrative whilst ignoring evidence supporting the opposite viewpoint simply doesn’t cut it. The fact is, it cannot be denied, it is possible, that these similarities are simply coincidental. In such circumstances the only sensible thing is to consider the people accused of committing this “crime”, and to see if the accusations fit a historic pattern. Given Lucas’ and his collaborators historic record and their statements on this matter, I think it is obvious, that it does not. Additionally one should consider the context in which these alleged racial stereotypes are placed. Historically racial stereotypes served a purpose, and were used to promote distorted images of groups of people, or reflected certain biases and prejudices that people had about these groups of people. So, for the characters in Lucas’ films to fit the definition of racial stereotype it is not enough to point to some similarities, it should also be obvious that Lucas intended to promote distorted images of blacks, Asians, and Jews, or that these characters reflect biases and or prejudices, he has towards these people. Again there’s simply no evidence for this, in fact quite the opposite. Lucas is known for his left-wing politics, and is married to black woman. His best friend Steven Spielberg is Jewish. He created Star Wars in part as an analogy for the evils of the Vietnam war. It doesn’t seem logical for a person of his background and beliefs to perpetuate racial stereotypes about blacks, Asians, and Jews. As such, I can only conclude that those eager to convict Lucas are the ones who are biased by their dislike of Lucas’ new brand of Star Wars to the point, that they ignore any evidence that points to a different conclusion.

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Time
 (Edited)

Creox said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

ZkinandBonez said:

“West-Indian accent”? I though Jar Jar was supposed to sound Creole. And previously in this thread his accent was described as resembling Jamaican. This is really why the Jar Jar criticism confuses me so much. People can never agree on how exactly he is offensive. Also this is literally the first time I’ve heard mention of Jar Jar’s “buttocks”, and what does that have to do with Indians?

Also when was “crafty Japanese trade villains” ever a thing? I’ve heard people make ‘yellow peril’ comparisons, but apart from the accent (which the voice actor based on Philippino I belive) there’s not much about them that resembles any Asian cultures. Not that I’m aware of at least.

LoL

Well, sure but the point is that Jar Jar sounds decidedly stereotyped in that fashion. Be it Caribbean or Jamaican they all have a very noticeable trait that is very much human being of color. The trade federation have very obvious, thick Asian accents with large slitted eyes…they walk around like Geishas with their hands folded in front of them. I took the “crafty” in that phrase to just illustrate they were stereotypes that were cast as villains. Nothing more. Yellow peril certainly would fit that stereotype.

Watto and Jewish is ( I hope) not in need of an explanation?

Large slitted eyes…that’s a contradiction in terms if I ever saw one.

Obviously Asian…

The alien on the right is definitely Asian in facial characteristics but that is not the only trait I’m talking about. At any rate it is not important for my basic premise to be true. Many thought similarly, including the persons in the piece I linked. All my friends felt this way at the first viewing.

Yes, but the fact that many thought similarly doesn’t make it true.

Really? How does that make sense? If one person or a few dozen thought this then you might have a case. The debate over this issue in general with the TPM and the PT is well known and well documented. As noted before, I don’t believe Lucas was going out of his way here but To say this has no legs is just false.

Watto in the next movie has a small beard and hat that looks decidedly Hasidic. Am I really just imagining this? Seriously?

Humans see patterns in things that simply aren’t there. It is our nature.

Is the cloud deliberately or subconciously attempting to look like Winnie the Poo, or is it all in the eyes of the beholder?

Actually that is a cloud that looks very much like Winnie the Pooh. Not sure how that helps your case.

You’re missing the point. Looks like and is are two different things. The cloud looks like Winnie the Pooh, because we through our history associate the shape with Winnie the Pooh, but the cloud isn’t Winnie the Pooh. The cloud doesn’t look like Winnie the Pooh by design. It’s just incidental. In the same way some of us see racial stereotypes in some of Lucas’ characters, but that is not the same as them being racial stereotypes. The characters don’t look like racial stereotypes by design. It’s just incidental. We think we see a pattern, but it isn’t there. We think we see Winnie the Pooh, but it’s just a cloud that for no reason whatsoever shares some similarities with Winnie the Pooh. To me those here that try to convince me, that Neimoidians are Asian, and Jar Jar a black dude, are trying to convince me that the cloud is actually Winnie the Pooh. The fact that some of these characters share some vague similarities with racial stereotypes (along with plenty of differences) doesn’t make them racial stereotypes.

I understand what point you are trying to make but it doesn’t ring true for me. I know the cloud is not Winnie the Pooh…but anyone who has ever seen the character would immediately recognize the formation as that bear in a heart beat. Many who have seen and heard a racist stereotype of an Asian or Jew would recognize and have recognized Watto and the Neimoidians.

Doesn’t that last sentence kinda fit with what dredre is trying to say though? Just because you recognize a similarity, doesn’t mean it was intentional (or even subconsciously based off of something). And it implies that it could have been coincidental.

Like I said earlier about how the Gungans speak; people can’t even agree what accents they’re supposed to sound like. There’s only so many sounds youn can make, and in the end its bound to end up sounding like something that already exists. I mentioned Boss Nass and Tarpals earlier. Neither follow any clear accents, but still resemble in subtle ways the speech patterns of people from vastly different cultures. Sometimes the voice actor of captain Tarpals makes the character sound Samurai-like. I don’t think the he specifically thought about Samurais, I think he was just trying to make the character sound a bit gruff and it accidentally ended up sounding a bit like typical movie-Samurais. Same things goes for Brian Blessed’s take on Boss Nass; with the odd dialogue written by Lucas, the words he choose to alter and emphasize, combined with his deep vocals, it can sound vaguely Caribbean. It’s not an actual Jamaican accent like they chose to give Kit Fisto in the Clone Wars, but some of the same “gestural” aspects are in there. Ahmed Best seemed to add some retroflex to some of the sounds, especially the D’s, and as such he can sound sort of Indian at times. It seems like an odd conscious choice, but it’s possible that he did it simply because it’s such an unnatural sound for English speakers to make (hence it sounds “foreign/alien”). When Blessed does these sounds with his deeper tone of voice, you get that vaguely South African feel.

Newt Gunray’s voice has a gruff-ness (best way I can describe it) similar to Tarpals, but the other Neimoidians don’t have it. The Neimoidian pilot (the one with the weird metal mouth-piece and goggles) speak in a more higher pitched and ‘stilted’ manner that kinda resemble Indian, as opposed to Japanese. Same thing goes for Watto, who’s accent, despite being compared to Jewish or Arab accents, also has a tendency to add little vowel sounds at the end of- or in the middle of sentences (I think this is called epenthesis), which is more commonly associated with stereotypical Italian accents. Again, this has nothing to do with imitating a real accent, but rather adding sounds and grammatical errors that makes a character sound like a non-native speaker, and in the end this is absolutely bound to resemble real accents and dialects.

Even the Geonosians in AOTC, despite being insect people, have, out of necessity, similarities to real languages, either intentionally or unintentionally. The sentence structure has a lot of glottal stops, ejectives and rolling R’s which really have nothing to do with bug sounds, but it exists in Polynesian languages and (to a lesser degree) Xhosa dialects, both of which are about as far away from familiar Western languages as you can get. This could have been intentionally, but it could easily have been a case of simply asking the English-speaking voice-actor “do the most unnatural sound you can make”.

OK, this was kind of long and rant-y, but what I’m trying to say is that the PT accents are such a vague hodgepodge of sounds that I fail to see how they can represent any specific language in an intentional and “insensitive” manner.

Creox said:

Regardless, how one thinks or interprets an image or portrayal is an important aspect of art compared to how that image or portrayal was originally intended. It is arrogant imo to suggest that what people see and hear is “not there” though, Dre. To me they are as obvious as that bear looking EXACTLY like Pooh. I am truly puzzled how these caricatures got by the the design team and Lucas, frankly. I just think they were a bit lazy in trying to come up with these characters and/or thought using cliches would send the message they wanted with respects to who the villains were, who the sidekick was…who knows. I don’t think there was any conscious effort to appear racist but insensitive? Yeah.

As for the character appearances, I think similar concepts apply there. The designers had to have borrowed from real-life simply out of necessity, but hat doesn’t mean that the Neimoidians wear Chinese-outfits, any more than Amidala is wearing a Mongolian dress and hair-style, despite that having been an inspiration. Hell, the Neimoidians’ weird hats might as well be inspired by the Pope as opposed to anything Chinese.

When making aliens, regardless of whether you borrow something intentionally, or you simply make something you think is completely made up, there’s only so much to take from, and there is only so much the human brain can imagine. And we do tend to look for patterns and similarities, so naturally, we will find cultural similarities in both the human and alien characters; their clothes, speech, mannerisms, etc. when we are watching a space-fantasy where everything has to me made up from scratch (or as much from scratch as is actually possible).

Star Wars is Surrealism, not Science Fiction (essay)
Original Trilogy Documentaries/Making-Ofs (YouTube, Vimeo, etc. finds)
Beyond the OT Documentaries/Making-Ofs (YouTube, Vimeo, etc. finds)
Amazon link to my novel; Dawn of the Karabu.

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TL;DR

Intention matters, but the end result also matters.

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DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

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ZkinandBonez said:

“West-Indian accent”? I though Jar Jar was supposed to sound Creole. And previously in this thread his accent was described as resembling Jamaican. This is really why the Jar Jar criticism confuses me so much. People can never agree on how exactly he is offensive. Also this is literally the first time I’ve heard mention of Jar Jar’s “buttocks”, and what does that have to do with Indians?

Also when was “crafty Japanese trade villains” ever a thing? I’ve heard people make ‘yellow peril’ comparisons, but apart from the accent (which the voice actor based on Philippino I belive) there’s not much about them that resembles any Asian cultures. Not that I’m aware of at least.

LoL

Well, sure but the point is that Jar Jar sounds decidedly stereotyped in that fashion. Be it Caribbean or Jamaican they all have a very noticeable trait that is very much human being of color. The trade federation have very obvious, thick Asian accents with large slitted eyes…they walk around like Geishas with their hands folded in front of them. I took the “crafty” in that phrase to just illustrate they were stereotypes that were cast as villains. Nothing more. Yellow peril certainly would fit that stereotype.

Watto and Jewish is ( I hope) not in need of an explanation?

Large slitted eyes…that’s a contradiction in terms if I ever saw one.

Obviously Asian…

The alien on the right is definitely Asian in facial characteristics but that is not the only trait I’m talking about. At any rate it is not important for my basic premise to be true. Many thought similarly, including the persons in the piece I linked. All my friends felt this way at the first viewing.

Yes, but the fact that many thought similarly doesn’t make it true.

Really? How does that make sense? If one person or a few dozen thought this then you might have a case. The debate over this issue in general with the TPM and the PT is well known and well documented. As noted before, I don’t believe Lucas was going out of his way here but To say this has no legs is just false.

Watto in the next movie has a small beard and hat that looks decidedly Hasidic. Am I really just imagining this? Seriously?

Humans see patterns in things that simply aren’t there. It is our nature.

Is the cloud deliberately or subconciously attempting to look like Winnie the Poo, or is it all in the eyes of the beholder?

Actually that is a cloud that looks very much like Winnie the Pooh. Not sure how that helps your case.

You’re missing the point. Looks like and is are two different things. The cloud looks like Winnie the Pooh, because we through our history associate the shape with Winnie the Pooh, but the cloud isn’t Winnie the Pooh. The cloud doesn’t look like Winnie the Pooh by design. It’s just incidental. In the same way some of us see racial stereotypes in some of Lucas’ characters, but that is not the same as them being racial stereotypes. The characters don’t look like racial stereotypes by design. It’s just incidental. We think we see a pattern, but it isn’t there. We think we see Winnie the Pooh, but it’s just a cloud that for no reason whatsoever shares some similarities with Winnie the Pooh. To me those here that try to convince me, that Neimoidians are Asian, and Jar Jar a black dude, are trying to convince me that the cloud is actually Winnie the Pooh. The fact that some of these characters share some vague similarities with racial stereotypes (along with plenty of differences) doesn’t make them racial stereotypes.

I understand what point you are trying to make but it doesn’t ring true for me. I know the cloud is not Winnie the Pooh…but anyone who has ever seen the character would immediately recognize the formation as that bear in a heart beat. Many who have seen and heard a racist stereotype of an Asian or Jew would recognize and have recognized Watto and the Neimoidians. Jar Jar is less recognizable as a single stereotype but enough of one that many people see it and have commented on it. Fetchit reflects part of his demeanor, speech and gait but his accent strikes me as mostly creole tbh. I think Lucas was genuinely taken aback by any criticisms in this regard and appeared pretty pissed off about it understandably but that doesn’t mean the stereotypes are not visible and audible to many people.

Regardless, how one thinks or interprets an image or portrayal is an important aspect of art compared to how that image or portrayal was originally intended. It is arrogant imo to suggest that what people see and hear is “not there” though, Dre. To me they are as obvious as that bear looking EXACTLY like Pooh. I am truly puzzled how these caricatures got by the the design team and Lucas, frankly. I just think they were a bit lazy in trying to come up with these characters and/or thought using cliches would send the message they wanted with respects to who the villains were, who the sidekick was…who knows. I don’t think there was any conscious effort to appear racist but insensitive? Yeah.

To me anyone is innocent until proven guilty, and pointing to some circumstantial evidence and fitting it into a narrative whilst ignoring evidence supporting the opposite viewpoint simply doesn’t cut it. The fact is, it cannot be denied, it is possible, that these similarities are simply coincidental. In such circumstances the only sensible thing is to consider the people accused of committing this “crime”, and to see if the accusations fit a historic pattern. Given Lucas’ and his collaborators historic record and their statements on this matter, I think it is obvious, that it does not. Additionally one should consider the context in which these alleged racial stereotypes are placed. Historically racial stereotypes served a purpose, and were used to promote distorted images of groups of people, or reflected certain biases and prejudices that people had about these groups of people. So, for the characters in Lucas’ films to fit the definition of racial stereotype it is not enough to point to some similarities, it should also be obvious that Lucas intended to promote distorted images of blacks, Asians, and Jews, or that these characters reflect biases and or prejudices, he has towards these people. Again there’s simply no evidence for this, in fact quite the opposite. Lucas is known for his left-wing politics, and is married to black woman. His best friend Steven Spielberg is Jewish. He created Star Wars in part as an analogy for the evils of the Vietnam war. It doesn’t seem logical for a person of his background and beliefs to perpetuate racial stereotypes about blacks, Asians, and Jews. As such, I can only conclude that those eager to convict Lucas are the ones who are biased by their dislike of Lucas’ new brand of Star Wars to the point, that they ignore any evidence that points to a different conclusion.

I’ve never said Lucas was a racist. I am very puzzled why someone, somewhere at LA did not notice this stuff. Simply unbelievable imo. If the coincidences are just incidental then whoever signed off on this stuff was plainly not doing their job.

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People not being brave enough to tell George things aren’t quite right sums up the whole PT.

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 (Edited)

OK, this was kind of long and rant-y, but what I’m trying to say is that the PT accents are such a vague hodgepodge of sounds that I fail to see how they can represent any specific language in an intentional and “insensitive” manner.

And yet…I do see it and hear it. So do many others who have made their thoughts known all over the internet. I understand you and Dre quite well and really do see your side of this debate. I also can appreciate how something vague can be interpreted in many different ways. That being said, enough of us have noticed this since the TPM and the rest of the PT first showed. I haven’t talked about it in years and only brought it up here because someone else had mentioned it. In my recent trip online I have found a lot more people actually think as I do and explain it better than I have.

Some I disagree with. I agree with you that most of the trade delegation don’t sound Asian. Gunray sounds like a really bad Charlie Chan imitation…yes, it’s that bad to my ears. I don’t think Jar Jar is this quintessential black sounding and acting character but he has definite attributes that are cringe worthy. The worst by far for me in Watto. They doubled down on his image in the second film and added a Hasidic hat and beard. He sounds JUST like an old Jewish caricature. There is NO way that someone at LA could have looked at Watto in AOTC and not seen that…no way. Does that mean I think it was meant to be racist? No but definitely insensitive or unthinking.

Just a small example…check out the live action tag under “film” for more on SW. These guys are pretty even handed and make room for other thoughts on the subject.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SpaceJews

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Mocata said:

People not being brave enough to tell George things aren’t quite right sums up the whole PT.

I think that summarizes the PT quite well. The opposite is also why the OT did quite well imo.

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Been a while since I’ve listened to the commentaries, but I think George wasn’t even going to bring Watto back for AOTC and someone changed his mind. Are there making of books that go into who designs certain characters?

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Creox said:

OK, this was kind of long and rant-y, but what I’m trying to say is that the PT accents are such a vague hodgepodge of sounds that I fail to see how they can represent any specific language in an intentional and “insensitive” manner.

And yet…I do see it and hear it. So do many others who have made their thoughts known all over the internet.

I get that. And I get that these characters can be very uncomfortable to people. But the fact that people seem to hear different things I think is very important and telling. What you hear isn’t necessarily heard by others, and where you hear Creole, some hear Indian, and so forth. I even found a forum post from 2002 where someone said that Watto’s hat made him look French.

Creox said:

I understand you and Dre quite well and really do see your side of this debate. I also can appreciate how something vague can be interpreted in many different ways. That being said, enough of us have noticed this since the TPM and the rest of the PT first showed. I haven’t talked about it in years and only brought it up here because someone else had mentioned it. In my recent trip online I have found a lot more people actually think as I do and explain it better than I have.

Some I disagree with. I agree with you that most of the trade delegation don’t sound Asian. Gunray sounds like a really bad Charlie Chan imitation…yes, it’s that bad to my ears.

Really? This guy? I don’t see how he even even barely resembles Gunray. The voice is wrong, the intonations are completely different, and Gunray actually does the grammar properly whereas Chan skips entire words.

Creox said:

I don’t think Jar Jar is this quintessential black sounding and acting character but he has definite attributes that are cringe worthy. The worst by far for me in Watto. They doubled down on his image in the second film and added a Hasidic hat and beard. He sounds JUST like an old Jewish caricature. There is NO way that someone at LA could have looked at Watto in AOTC and not seen that…no way. Does that mean I think it was meant to be racist? No but definitely insensitive or unthinking.

I will say that out of the alternatives you suggest I agree the most with “unthinking”, because I honestly don’t think it crossed any of their minds. At least not the LucasFilm people.

The thing about Watto’s hat though, which was in the TPM storyboards BTW, looks like it’s supposed to be a droid-part or something similar. It looks very much like the pit-droid heads and in the storyboards it even had an antennae sticking out of it. And the rest of Watto’s design really isn’t that illogical from an alien-design perspective. First of all Lucas originally described him (as I recall) as a Tapir with Humming Bird wings and Duck feet. Naturally as a character with a lot of dialogue and personality he had to have somewhat human features; so his face (minus the trunk) is fairly human like. His human-like eyes had to convey a large range of emotions and it helped sell the CGI as a living being. And since he was supposed to be somewhat shabby-looking character they gave him some stubble and a bit of a gut. In AOTC he’s had to sell his last slave and it seems like he’s kind of down on his luck. To show this they’ve given him a shabby beard and what appears to be a re-purposed mechanical part as a hat. Also keep in mind that he’s an amphibian living in the desert. Now did much of this end up giving him a somewhat Hasidic look? I guess? But from Lucas and the designers POV it’s not hard to see why they only saw a weird hovering amphibian with a metal-hat, which is also what a lot of people watching the film simply saw.
Anyway, I’m making way too long a post again.

Star Wars is Surrealism, not Science Fiction (essay)
Original Trilogy Documentaries/Making-Ofs (YouTube, Vimeo, etc. finds)
Beyond the OT Documentaries/Making-Ofs (YouTube, Vimeo, etc. finds)
Amazon link to my novel; Dawn of the Karabu.

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Creox said:

Just a small example…check out the live action tag under “film” for more on SW. These guys are pretty even handed and make room for other thoughts on the subject.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SpaceJews

tvtropes said:

The Sand People/Tusken Raiders in the original films come across as a violent caricature of desert-dwelling Bedouin-like groups, being low-tech, desert-dwelling nomads wearing robes and head coverings. Lucas apparently intended the species to resemble the depiction of American Indians in old Wild West movies through their violent behavior toward the more technologically advanced settlers. The females also wear papoose boards. Whether Lucas realized the Unfortunate Implications or not is anybody’s guess.

This kind of goes back to what’s been mentioned earlier. Lucas said he was going for a sci-fi abstraction of old Western cliches, yet tvtropes specifically refer to them as “Bedouin-like”. That kind of comes off as projecting to me. And the papoose boards goes back tow hat I said that it’s impossible to design stuff without borrowing from real-life. But then the question is; is it wrong to borrow something real for “bad guys” when you’ve borrowed plenty of ideas and concepts for “good” or neutral characters (like f.ex. the Mongolian influences on Amidala’s wardrobe).

tvtropes said:

The Star Wars prequel films also feature the Neimoidians - a race of slit-eyed, inscrutable, unscrupulous villain aliens who speak with a vague Asian accent, wear Qing dynasty robes and hats, and threaten the galaxy with their trade routes and mass production technology. Many English-speaking critics saw the race as a collection of Asian stereotypes.

“Qing dynasty robes” seems just as applicable to Amidala as it does the Neimoidians.
(Though this female Neimodian from the EU definitely went for an obvious Qing dynasty vibe, though this would have been after the movie.)

tvtropes said:

Many critics accused Jar Jar Binks of resembling black caricatures in minstrel shows and early American cinema, highlighting his broken English, clumsiness, naivety and shuffling gait, all typical traits of minstrel characters. Physically, he has large nostrils and his “lips” make up half of his face, both traits commonly exaggerated in black caricatures. The Gungan accent, which sounds vaguely Caribbean, doesn’t help the issue, and his large floppy ears have been compared to dreadlocks. Jar-Jar’s first lines in the series, “Me-sa your humble servant,” call slavery and domestic servitude to mind. The character was voiced and motion-captured by black actor Ahmed Best, who denied any attempt to make Jar Jar a black caricature. The Gungan race as a whole, however, does not embody the trope;…

“he has large nostrils and his “lips” make up half of his face, both traits commonly exaggerated in black caricatures”. I’m not disagreeing with that statement in and of itself, but Jar Jar is after all an amphibian creature. In early concept art he has even less human-like features than what he does in the finished movie. And the whole “servant” thing is taken out of context. He’s essentially a clumsy, comic-relief version of Chewbacca, which had a life-debt to Han for saving his life.

I wonder; if Jar Jar had been played by another actor, yet had still been written the same, had the same broken-English dialogue, and the other Gungans still behaved exactly the same, would people then have drawn parallels between black caricatures and his lips, nostrils, floppy ears, etc.?

Star Wars is Surrealism, not Science Fiction (essay)
Original Trilogy Documentaries/Making-Ofs (YouTube, Vimeo, etc. finds)
Beyond the OT Documentaries/Making-Ofs (YouTube, Vimeo, etc. finds)
Amazon link to my novel; Dawn of the Karabu.

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It’s definitely the best of the three, and my fifth favourite Star Wars film.

Not enough people read the EU.