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Howard Kazanjian — Page 2

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i don't know that it's lucas-bashers coming up with the "latest and greatest" theories on how to bash the guy--it's just that there's so much exhaustive material to use in discussing why the SW films have gone so dramatically downhill with the prequels that there's always something new to talk about.

i'm sure lucas has always gotten his way, but my read of the available materials is that kurtz would stand up to him, and that they did have something much closer to a collaboration artistically than anyone lucas has worked with since. i haven't read the new revenge of the sith making-of book, but i wouldn't call mccallum urging lucas to work on the script an exceptionally aggressive creative move. to me, the guy's still a yes-man. at the very least, my sense of his role is to handle the nuts and bolts and anything lucas doesn't want to do so that lucas can focus on the creative stuff. which is fine, except the creative stuff sucks hardcore lately.
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But that's what a producer is SUPPOSED to do. The idea that a hired producer is SUPPOSED to be a creative collaborator isn't really how the job works. And Kurtz didn't stand up to Lucas all that much, either. I'd say McCallum and Kurtz had essentially the same input into the story, and excersised it as often. there's a "Myth of Kurtz" built up that doesn't take into account what Producers are actually supposed to DO, and ends up handing co-creatorship and almost a co-writer credit to a guy who didn't ever really deserve it. And that's not to take away from the job he did working with Lucas, but building up Kurtz in place of Lucas is just as unfair as building up Lucas in the place of everyone else.
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i would never build up kurtz in place of lucas. i'm just saying he played a role in the artistic value of epIV and epV, that you can see the degradation occurring in epVI, and that without him on the prequels, they're horseshit. he is hardly the only reason or the chief reason the prequels are horseshit, but there you go. it's a factor.

i've read all the extant lucas sources but can hardly quote them chapter and verse, so if that means I have to abstain from the discussion, so be it. i will say that the proof is in the pudding--epIV and epV are better than the prequels to me, and there are probably many reasons, but to me one of them has to be the presence of gary kurtz. he works on the movie, it's good. he doesn't, it's not so good. i may not be able to give you three cited examples of what he did or didn't do to make the early movies better, but they are.

there IS, however, at least one telling piece of evidence extant on mccallum NOT exercising any quality control, or at least, it's telling to me. it's when they're editing episode I in "the beginning," the doc on the epI dvd set, and it's clear this is the moment when they should realize they've got a problem on their hands, and only ben burtt actually speaks up and says something. i can't recall exactly what he says, but it's so revealing because it's the only moment I can recall in the modern star wars coverage where someone within lucasfilm admits to anything but the prequels being godly things of beauty rendered from on high by Godhead George.

as to your assertion that the money/production stuff is what a producer is supposed to do, maybe, but there's also been plenty of examples of creative producers who have been involved to a small or great degree in the creative decisions on a film in collaboration with the director, writer, etc. hell, lucas himself is a towering example of this; his hand is all over Empire and Jedi, whether he directed them or not, in more than just a co-writer way.
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he works on the movie, it's good. he doesn't, it's not so good. i may not be able to give you three cited examples of what he did or didn't do to make the early movies better, but they are.


but that makes the argument sorta empty, though, doesn't it? I mean, I'm not denying you your opinion (and it's one I share in that I think the first two ARE better than the 4 that followed, although I do appreciate the prequels more than you do) but if you don't REALLY have anything to point to other than "He was on those shoots and then he wasn't" then the argument is sorta flimsy. There's a few people who worked on the first two who didn't work on the prequels, as well. It's a little too open ended.

And yeah, Burtt was the only one to say anything on the Beginning, but it was only an hourlong documentary. McCallums face isn't shining and beaming when that ended, either, and there's more evidence in that book that he tried to curb Lucas' worst tendencies. But you haven't read that, so I can't REALLY hold that against you, except to say you SHOULD read it if you're really interested in seeing how Lucas' filmmaking procedures have progressed (or stagnated, as the case may be)

And Lucas isn't exactly the GREATEST producer to point to as an example, since he is, as I pointed out earlier, an example of a producer who also CREATED the story he's producing. Not too many producers are also co-writers. A lot of them simply BUY the rights to something and ensure it gets put on screen. there's some creative input, yeah, but that's largely not the job of a STRAIGHT-UP producer. Producer-Writer, yeah. Producer-Director, yeah. But just hired gun Producer? Different ballgame. But you are right, there are producers who do wear both hats, and are credited for that explicitly
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First of all, let's set the record straight because there is quite a bit of nonsense going on in this thread. I don't know where some of you guys get your information, but it's BS!

The Bizzle is spot on in most of his comments on this issue.

Why Kurtz and Lucas split:

Kurtz would like for you to believe that he voluntarily left Lucas over creative differences. It's nonsense. Lucas and Kurtz split was solely over money. When Lucas decided to fund ESB himself, he really played hardball with Fox and really stuck it to them on negotiating deal. Lucas hired Kershner to direct. Lucas also allowed Kurtz to produce ESB on his own with little oversight from Lucas, while Lucas stayed in the U.S. to oversee the effects work. Kurtz eventually ran ESB's production 10 million dollars over budget, forcing Lucas to go back to Fox. Well, Fox let Lucas have it. Lucas blamed Kurtz because it was his responsibility to keep the production on schedule and on budget. That's a producer's job. Lucas couldn't trust Kurtz with his money. That led to the split.

Truth be told, Kurtz was not that good of a producer. You can say what you want about McCallum, but he's Lucas' producer because he is very good at his job. Who cares whether he's a "yes" man. It's not his job or any producer's job to continually confront the director.

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i'm just saying he played a role in the artistic value of epIV and epV, that you can see the degradation occurring in epVI, and that without him on the prequels, they're horseshit. he is hardly the only reason or the chief reason the prequels are horseshit, but there you go. it's a factor.


Bullshit! You have no clue what you're talking about. That statement is just another example of a disgruntled fanboy trying to take credit away from Lucas for the greatness that is the original trilogy, and bestowing up Kurtz. Why? Because you're angry at Lucas.

Kurtz in no way played a role in the artistic merits of the Star Wars trilogy. Kurtz created nothing, wrote nothing, and directed nothing aside from a few second unit scenes. He is not responsible in any way for the original trilogy being great. He's a producer, no different than McCallum.

and since the 1970's we've become the most cynical, sarcastic and cranky bastards on the planet, but enough is enough.


Well said. I couldn't have said it better. That's exactl why I can' blame Lucas for ignoring Star Wars fans. The crankiest, most selfish, obssessive group I've ever seen. Unfortunately, I'm in that group as well. Would you or I give a flip about people who constantly slam you, blame you for wrecking their childhoods(which is pathetic), and attack you on a daily basis? I doubt it. I know I wouldn't.

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I just want to step in for a second and say that I'm really glad my thread has gotten off the ground like this. It didn't really get off the ground in exactly the way I planned, but... I'm glad to see I've inadvertantly started a discussion here. This is the newb in me showing, but the last threads I've started didn't really go anywhere, so I'm still excited about this.

And I've been meaning to get involved, but my knowledge doesn't really rival The Bizzle's, so I haven't been wanting to reply simply with, "Yeah, I agree!" because there's really no point to it. So this is really the best I can do on this topic. And I do agree. It's wrong to deify Gary Kurtz just because the movies he produced happened to be (arguably) the best two Star Wars movies. You might as well say that the Key Grip is responsible for the overall quality of a movie. I know that's going a bit too far to the other side, but you get the point.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Someone doesn't have to create something to have an impact on how it turns out. For example, let's say one of the writers came in to George with an idea. George doesn't like it at first, and says no. Gary Kurtz then tells him to wait, they discuss the idea, Kurtz explains how he sees it working, and convinces George that it's a good idea worth using. Now, if it wasn't for Kurtz [or anyone else who would 'stand up' to George] then that idea wouldn't be used, and the story would be different.
I'm not saying that this type of scenario ever happened with Star Wars or Empire, or that Gary Kurtz ever influenced the story, I'm just saying, someone can have a big influence on the creative process of a movie without necessarily doing any creating.
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That's what I meant when I said it could go too far the other way. Every person who works on a movie has some kind of impact as to how it turns out. At the same time, one single change of staff is most likely not going to alter a movie extremely signifcantly. Of course, we'll never know whether Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back would be better or worse without Gary Kurtz.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Originally posted by: joe_H
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i'm just saying he played a role in the artistic value of epIV and epV, that you can see the degradation occurring in epVI, and that without him on the prequels, they're horseshit. he is hardly the only reason or the chief reason the prequels are horseshit, but there you go. it's a factor.


Bullshit! You have no clue what you're talking about. That statement is just another example of a disgruntled fanboy trying to take credit away from Lucas for the greatness that is the original trilogy, and bestowing up Kurtz. Why? Because you're angry at Lucas.

Kurtz in no way played a role in the artistic merits of the Star Wars trilogy. Kurtz created nothing, wrote nothing, and directed nothing aside from a few second unit scenes. He is not responsible in any way for the original trilogy being great. He's a producer, no different than McCallum.


This is really what I was replying to.
  • Todd

STAR WARS: Symphony for a Saga

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Yeah, that's definitely going overboard to say Kurtz contributed NOTHING. C'mon. Your example of bruckheimer is pretty good, although the majority of his creative influence is felt by which scripts he's picking, not so much for what he's adding to them.

Kurtz didn't get to pick the script. So that's where that comparison sorta crumbles. but to say Kurtz had NO input is going too far in the other direction.
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I guess nobody really gives a crap about Howard Kazanjian's contributions to the Star Wars Saga.

It's sad when a thread is titled "Howard Kazanjian" and you have two posts regarding him, and twenty others pertaining to Gary Kurtz, Rick McCallum, and their respective working relationships with Lucas.

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Originally posted by: InfoDroid
I guess nobody really gives a crap about Howard Kazanjian's contributions to the Star Wars Saga.

It's sad when a thread is titled "Howard Kazanjian" and you have two posts regarding him, and twenty others pertaining to Gary Kurtz, Rick McCallum, and their respective working relationships with Lucas.


It's not sad at all. Any discussion of Kazanjian would be replete without the point being made that Lucas has seemingly become more insular since the 1980's and gravitated more toward the producing style of McCallum which is decidely less artistically hands on.

My guess is that Kazanjian had moved on to other things since 'Jedi' like producing television and more features. His schedule was probably busy and McCallum was hired to produce Young Indiana Jones. A working relationship formed between him and Lucas, and there you go.

I think the reason that a thread about Kazanjian moved into other areas is that his story isn't as lurid and entertaining as Kurtz's. Honestly, his contribution to the Star Wars universe is a little boring apart from the interesting point that it was he who originally contributed the 'Revenge' title.

For what it's worth, you could probably credit him with the title for 'Revenge of the Sith' which without the original 'Jedi' title would have been called something else. The danger though is creating a legend out of Kazanjian where there may not really be one...

Just my opinion though (and the beers as well, I guess)