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Current Events. No debates! — Page 42

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Mrebo said:

Sounds like he or his doctor could be on the hook for fraud…and yet what should the legal standard be for determining gender identity?

I thought each person was supposed to be able to decide for themselves which gender they wish to identify as.

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 (Edited)

Warbler said:

Mrebo said:

Sounds like he or his doctor could be on the hook for fraud…and yet what should the legal standard be for determining gender identity?

I thought each person was supposed to be able to decide for themselves which gender they wish to identify as.

If that is the case, anyone can decide they’re any gender for any reason even if that reason is suspect. Therefore, there is (or should be) a difference between what people hold as a standard for determining gender, and what the law does.

TV’s Frink said:

chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.

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Mrebo said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Lol.

I don’t think we’re supposed to laugh at that.

Awaiting further guidance…

Supposed to has nothing to do with it. It’s an amusing story to me and it strikes me as a tad bit funny. In the past, my willingness to giggle at insane news stories has been cited as examples of how I’m pure evil, but I don’t care. Some guy changing his gender for insurance reasons is so crazy that it’s funny.

The Person in Question

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chyron8472 said:

flametitan said:

chyron8472 said:

flametitan said:

Mrebo said:

Sounds like he or his doctor could be on the hook for fraud…and yet what should the legal standard be for determining gender identity?

Just… prosecute him for fraud and perjury. We don’t need to bring the standards up to where they were previously. We shouldn’t have to jump through hoops in order to be seen under the law and by our peers as ourselves.

Edit: This is more about the strange biases in auto insurance (though there’s good rationale), but throwing us under the bus (and giving ammunition to bigots) is not a good way of going about it.

Generally I think prosecuting him for fraud is what would or will happen. However, there is a point to be made regarding making legal gender status less arbitrary, especially if metrics or statistics businesses use depend on data relevant to gender being accurate.

Ok, I don’t want to turn this into a debate, not in this thread.

But I have to ask: What do you mean by, “making legal gender status less arbitrary?”

I’m not sure how to redefine that. If gender status is fluid or arbitrary, that doesn’t necessarily make it easy to arbitrate cases of fraud or deceit regarding what people report their gender to be. I’m not saying there need to be more hoops. I don’t even know what hoops there are. I guess I’m saying there is a valid argument to have hoops and for them to be well-defined.

Often there doesn’t even need to be concrete legislation (regarding said hoops) where caselaw in the courts establish a precedent for what they consider fraud and what they don’t. So there’s also a legal argument against the need for additional hoops.

I really was making no judgment about whether gender was too easy or hard to change.

Alright then. I think I see where you’re coming from. Obviously I have a stronger stance on it, but when stuff like this happens, it’s hard to justify my position.

As far as pre-existing hoops go, it varies from place to place. I’ve been waiting on finding work before I go through the legal aspects of transition, so most of my knowledge of the hoops are in regards to the medical aspects in my area. That being said, the legal hoops tend to vary from nearly none at all, to doctor’s note, to requiring surgery. I know there’s one state in the US where it’s just, “No, nothing will let you legally change the gender you’re registered as.”

The medical hoops, on the other hand, wow. I’m legitimately surprised he was able to get that Doctor’s note so easily. Most of us have to spend months trying to prove ourselves as, “really trans.”

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moviefreakedmind said:

Mrebo said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Lol.

I don’t think we’re supposed to laugh at that.

Awaiting further guidance…

Supposed to has nothing to do with it. It’s an amusing story to me and it strikes me as a tad bit funny. In the past, my willingness to giggle at insane news stories has been cited as examples of how I’m pure evil, but I don’t care. Some guy changing his gender for insurance reasons is so crazy that it’s funny.

Weren’t you specifically laughing at chyron’s post? My post was facetious, as I smiled at his post. Admitting to it would mean I’m on the wrong side of history or whatever.

The blue elephant in the room.

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chyron8472 said:

flametitan said:

I know there’s one state in the US where it’s just, “No, nothing will let you legally change the gender you’re registered as.”

You got me curious, so I looked it up. https://transgenderlawcenter.org/resources/id/state-by-state-overview-changing-gender-markers-on-birth-certificates

The answer is: Tennessee.

Yep. I knew someone brought up in the place where I learned about this article that they happened to live in the one place in America where that was in effect, but I forgot the name. Thanks for finding it; I know where to avoid if I visit America.

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Mrebo said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Mrebo said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Lol.

I don’t think we’re supposed to laugh at that.

Awaiting further guidance…

Supposed to has nothing to do with it. It’s an amusing story to me and it strikes me as a tad bit funny. In the past, my willingness to giggle at insane news stories has been cited as examples of how I’m pure evil, but I don’t care. Some guy changing his gender for insurance reasons is so crazy that it’s funny.

Weren’t you specifically laughing at chyron’s post? My post was facetious, as I smiled at his post. Admitting to it would mean I’m on the wrong side of history or whatever.

Some day we’ll all admit that putting cows on clouds was a barbaric practice.

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I don’t think it’s shocking for me to say that I am a total dumbass when it comes to this kind of thing, but since I have the opportunity, I’ll ask. Why is requiring surgery to declare yourself a male or female a bad thing? From my perspective, it seems like the logical thing to do, if a man is defined as being, you know, biologically a man, and a woman the same. I don’t mean to be provocative, I’m just genuinely curious.

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Handman said:

I don’t think it’s shocking for me to say that I am a total dumbass when it comes to this kind of thing, but since I have the opportunity, I’ll ask. Why is requiring surgery to declare yourself a male or female a bad thing? From my perspective, it seems like the logical thing to do, if a man is defined as being, you know, biologically a man, and a woman the same. I don’t mean to be provocative, I’m just genuinely curious.

Curiosity killed the cow in the clouds and it rained hamburgers and people said they were delicious so they petitioned for more cows to be sent up notwithstanding protesters.

The blue elephant in the room.

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Mrebo said:

Handman said:

I don’t think it’s shocking for me to say that I am a total dumbass when it comes to this kind of thing, but since I have the opportunity, I’ll ask. Why is requiring surgery to declare yourself a male or female a bad thing? From my perspective, it seems like the logical thing to do, if a man is defined as being, you know, biologically a man, and a woman the same. I don’t mean to be provocative, I’m just genuinely curious.

Curiosity killed the cow in the clouds and it rained hamburgers and people said they were delicious so they petitioned for more cows to be sent up notwithstanding protesters.

Is this your elevator pitch for Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs 3?

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Handman said:

Wtf?

What I’m saying is gender identity isn’t only or even predominantly a physical thing, far as I can fathom.

The blue elephant in the room.

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TV’s Frink said:

Mrebo said:

Handman said:

I don’t think it’s shocking for me to say that I am a total dumbass when it comes to this kind of thing, but since I have the opportunity, I’ll ask. Why is requiring surgery to declare yourself a male or female a bad thing? From my perspective, it seems like the logical thing to do, if a man is defined as being, you know, biologically a man, and a woman the same. I don’t mean to be provocative, I’m just genuinely curious.

Curiosity killed the cow in the clouds and it rained hamburgers and people said they were delicious so they petitioned for more cows to be sent up notwithstanding protesters.

Is this your elevator pitch for Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs 3?

Yes, is it a winner?

The blue elephant in the room.

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TV’s Frink said:

Mrebo said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Mrebo said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Lol.

I don’t think we’re supposed to laugh at that.

Awaiting further guidance…

Supposed to has nothing to do with it. It’s an amusing story to me and it strikes me as a tad bit funny. In the past, my willingness to giggle at insane news stories has been cited as examples of how I’m pure evil, but I don’t care. Some guy changing his gender for insurance reasons is so crazy that it’s funny.

Weren’t you specifically laughing at chyron’s post? My post was facetious, as I smiled at his post. Admitting to it would mean I’m on the wrong side of history or whatever.

Some day we’ll all admit that putting cows on clouds was a barbaric practice.

huh? I don’t get it.

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 (Edited)

Mrebo said:

TV’s Frink said:

Mrebo said:

Handman said:

I don’t think it’s shocking for me to say that I am a total dumbass when it comes to this kind of thing, but since I have the opportunity, I’ll ask. Why is requiring surgery to declare yourself a male or female a bad thing? From my perspective, it seems like the logical thing to do, if a man is defined as being, you know, biologically a man, and a woman the same. I don’t mean to be provocative, I’m just genuinely curious.

Curiosity killed the cow in the clouds and it rained hamburgers and people said they were delicious so they petitioned for more cows to be sent up notwithstanding protesters.

Is this your elevator pitch for Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs 3?

Yes, is it a winner?

Let’s call it direct-to-streaming quality.

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 (Edited)

Mrebo said:

Handman said:

I don’t think it’s shocking for me to say that I am a total dumbass when it comes to this kind of thing, but since I have the opportunity, I’ll ask. Why is requiring surgery to declare yourself a male or female a bad thing? From my perspective, it seems like the logical thing to do, if a man is defined as being, you know, biologically a man, and a woman the same. I don’t mean to be provocative, I’m just genuinely curious.

Curiosity killed the cow in the clouds and it rained hamburgers and people said they were delicious so they petitioned for more cows to be sent up notwithstanding protesters.

TV’s Frink said:

chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.

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 (Edited)

Mrebo said:

Handman said:

Wtf?

What I’m saying is gender identity isn’t only or even predominantly a physical thing, far as I can fathom.

But I’m pretty sure sex is. In any case, I was hoping flametitan would be able to explain.

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Handman said:

I don’t think it’s shocking for me to say that I am a total dumbass when it comes to this kind of thing, but since I have the opportunity, I’ll ask. Why is requiring surgery to declare yourself a male or female a bad thing? From my perspective, it seems like the logical thing to do, if a man is defined as being, you know, biologically a man, and a woman the same. I don’t mean to be provocative, I’m just genuinely curious.

TL;DR: It’s an expensive and laborious process with a lot of checks and balances to keep it from being easily accessible, while some trans people don’t need it to feel comfortable, but do need the legal system to acknowledge them as their preferred gender.

For a lot of trans people it is a concern they want dealt with, but not for all of us. Some of us don’t necessarily feel strongly one way or another about our genitalia. Some might actually like the apparent mismatch. I don’t have hard statistics on this front to say how many of each category exists, though; I just know from knowing other trans people that it’s a wide pool of what needs to be done in order to feel comfortable in our bodies.
For some of us, however, it’s a low priority on the to-do list compared to everything else we need in order to be seen as our preferred gender identity. Unless you intend to get in bed with them, what’s between your legs isn’t going to be how people judge you, so much as what’s on your ID, how your face looks, body shape, etc…

Not only that, but there’s a lot more gatekeeping with bottom surgery than with the other steps in transition (though stuff like laser and facial feminization surgery will often end up being classified as “cosmetic,” and not be covered by insurance.) Currently, the Standards of Care published by WPATH puts it at being forced to wait at least a year after beginning HRT in order to qualify. Depending on where you live, you also have to be out and presenting as your preferred gender for a year before you’re allowed HRT, which is… dangerous. Now, my area isn’t like this, but I still had to wait an annoyingly long time between first talking to a psychiatrist and being prescribed hormones, because of some other dumb red tape like requiring at least two psychs to sign off on your papers in a province where if you don’t live in the city everything’s a multi-hour drive.
Luckily on that front, there’s been “informed consent” clinics popping up, which are more about telling you what the effects and side effects of the hormones are without judging how “trans you are,” and therefore skips a lot of the stress and anxiety on that front. However, the year between starting HRT and being able to procure surgery is still part of the global Standards of Care for transgender individuals.

Oh, and on that part about how things like FFS and laser being cosmetic. Guess what? Insurance companies might not necessarily cover bottom surgery anyway, so you’re SOL if you can’t afford to get it done yourself. Again, in my part of Canada, it sounds like it might be part of our healthcare plan, assuming you fly to Montreal (the other end of the country from me) to get it done, but I’m not sure if they cover the flight expenses.

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Handman said:

I don’t think it’s shocking for me to say that I am a total dumbass when it comes to this kind of thing, but since I have the opportunity, I’ll ask. Why is requiring surgery to declare yourself a male or female a bad thing? From my perspective, it seems like the logical thing to do, if a man is defined as being, you know, biologically a man, and a woman the same. I don’t mean to be provocative, I’m just genuinely curious.

Nothing can make a biological man a biological woman or vice versa, and for that reason (as well as for cost and other restrictions), a lot of transgenders aren’t interested in or able to go through such invasive and expensive surgeries. That’s why it’s about identifying as one gender or the other, not whether or not someone wants or can afford those surgeries.

The Person in Question