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Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 131

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 (Edited)

i believe dom did acknowledge that nothing important plot-wise happened between III and IV, and that a lot more happened between VI and VII. he just says that the jump from VI to VII is much less jarring regardless, something i, too, very much disagree with.

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 (Edited)

NeverarGreat said:

DominicCobb said:

As usual I’ll have to strongly disagree. IV, V, VI, VII, VIII is already far more emotionally satisfying than I, II, III, IV, V, VI ever was. Going from III to IV is much more jarring a shift than going from VI to VII (and I’m not talking about quality). Just because nothing important plot-wise happens in between the PT and the OT doesn’t make them a cohesive and continuous unit, far from it. Lucas’s conception of the six episode saga was incredibly faulty and unsatisfactory. Hard to say how the nine episode saga will look without having seen the last chapter, but it can’t be anymore slapdash than the six episode one (if anything it’s working to rectify the problems).

Um what?
Between 3 and 4 the Empire grows in power as does the Rebellion, Luke and Leia grow up, and the Death Star is finally completed after 20 years. All of these things were set up in 3, and in fact one of the issues people have with that movie is how much hand-holding it does to make the universe continue relatively unchanged for two decades.

Between 6 and 7 the civil war officially ends with the Imperial remnant being exiled to the unknown regions, a new First Order arises from this remnant, Han and Leia officially get married then have a kid and Luke starts to form a new Jedi order then the Solo kid goes bad and destroys the order and Han and Leia break up and Luke goes into exile. Oh and the First Order is being run by a totally new warlord who is strong in the Force but unrelated to the Sith, they’ve somehow found a way to build a weapon much larger than any built by the Empire at the height of their power, and they’ve infiltrated the Republic Senate so far as to cast Leia out and force her to start her own miniature Rebellion.

You’ve clearly missed the point of my post. As I stated, plot-wise nothing important happens in between III and IV (as obviously opposed to between VI and VII). But the jump is nevertheless much more jarring, for other (in my opinion) far more important reasons.

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DominicCobb said:

NeverarGreat said:

DominicCobb said:

As usual I’ll have to strongly disagree. IV, V, VI, VII, VIII is already far more emotionally satisfying than I, II, III, IV, V, VI ever was. Going from III to IV is much more jarring a shift than going from VI to VII (and I’m not talking about quality). Just because nothing important plot-wise happens in between the PT and the OT doesn’t make them a cohesive and continuous unit, far from it. Lucas’s conception of the six episode saga was incredibly faulty and unsatisfactory. Hard to say how the nine episode saga will look without having seen the last chapter, but it can’t be anymore slapdash than the six episode one (if anything it’s working to rectify the problems).

Um what?
Between 3 and 4 the Empire grows in power as does the Rebellion, Luke and Leia grow up, and the Death Star is finally completed after 20 years. All of these things were set up in 3, and in fact one of the issues people have with that movie is how much hand-holding it does to make the universe continue relatively unchanged for two decades.

Between 6 and 7 the civil war officially ends with the Imperial remnant being exiled to the unknown regions, a new First Order arises from this remnant, Han and Leia officially get married then have a kid and Luke starts to form a new Jedi order then the Solo kid goes bad and destroys the order and Han and Leia break up and Luke goes into exile. Oh and the First Order is being run by a totally new warlord who is strong in the Force but unrelated to the Sith, they’ve somehow found a way to build a weapon much larger than any built by the Empire at the height of their power, and they’ve infiltrated the Republic Senate so far as to cast Leia out and force her to start her own miniature Rebellion.

You’ve clearly missed the point of my post. As I stated, plot-wise nothing important happens in between III and IV (as obviously opposed to between VI and VII). But the jump is nevertheless much more jarring, for other (in my opinion) far more important reasons.

what reasons?

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 (Edited)

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

As usual I’ll have to strongly disagree. IV, V, VI, VII, VIII is already far more emotionally satisfying than I, II, III, IV, V, VI ever was. Going from III to IV is much more jarring a shift than going from VI to VII (and I’m not talking about quality). Just because nothing important plot-wise happens in between the PT and the OT doesn’t make them a cohesive and continuous unit, far from it. Lucas’s conception of the six episode saga was incredibly faulty and unsatisfactory. Hard to say how the nine episode saga will look without having seen the last chapter, but it can’t be anymore slapdash than the six episode one (if anything it’s working to rectify the problems).

I’ll have to strongly disagree too. 😉 The PT is conceptually, and visually far more interesting to me than the ST, and that’s coming from someone who feels the PT is deeply flawed. I also don’t feel, it’s the current owners’ job to rectify percieved problems with Lucas’ story. Write your own story with your own characters, if you feel, you can do better. I prefer the OT as a three act story over Lucas’ six part saga, but I appreciate the creative vision he was going for while developing the PT. The ST feels like a postmodern take on the OT to me. It’s interesting as a sort of meta commentary on the story that preceeded it, but also in many ways the antithesis of what Star Wars used to be, and for many is supposed to be.

I’ll just say the ST feels far more in the spirit and heart of what Lucas originally conceived for the series than the PT ever did. Not antithesis at all, but a perfectly fitting continuation of what Star Wars is all about. Whereas I see the PT as being George trying to fundamentally realign the scope and drive of the series in a way that didn’t always completely fit with what came before.

I also think you misunderstood what I meant by “rectifying.” Honestly for the most part I meant solving the absurd idea of the films being all about “the tragedy of Darth Vader.” No matter who was in charge of these films (even if they were Lucas), they’d be fixing that.

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The bottom line is that JJ didn’t care. As an audience we saw Snoke (along with all the other ‘mystery boxes’) and were like “wow, who is this guy? Where did he come from? Is that big scar a clue? What happened after the decisive Endor victory etc etc” and JJ was simply going “uh, we need an Emperor, a Death Star, a desert planet, a cantina, a Vader, a landspeeder…”

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 (Edited)

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

As usual I’ll have to strongly disagree. IV, V, VI, VII, VIII is already far more emotionally satisfying than I, II, III, IV, V, VI ever was. Going from III to IV is much more jarring a shift than going from VI to VII (and I’m not talking about quality). Just because nothing important plot-wise happens in between the PT and the OT doesn’t make them a cohesive and continuous unit, far from it. Lucas’s conception of the six episode saga was incredibly faulty and unsatisfactory. Hard to say how the nine episode saga will look without having seen the last chapter, but it can’t be anymore slapdash than the six episode one (if anything it’s working to rectify the problems).

I’ll have to strongly disagree too. 😉 The PT is conceptually, and visually far more interesting to me than the ST, and that’s coming from someone who feels the PT is deeply flawed. I also don’t feel, it’s the current owners’ job to rectify percieved problems with Lucas’ story. Write your own story with your own characters, if you feel, you can do better. I prefer the OT as a three act story over Lucas’ six part saga, but I appreciate the creative vision he was going for while developing the PT. The ST feels like a postmodern take on the OT to me. It’s interesting as a sort of meta commentary on the story that preceeded it, but also in many ways the antithesis of what Star Wars used to be, and for many is supposed to be.

I’ll just say the ST feels far more in the spirit and heart of what Lucas originally conceived for the series than the PT ever did. Not antithesis at all, but a perfectly fitting continuation of what Star Wars is all about. Whereas I see the PT as being George trying to fundamentally realign the scope and drive of the series in a way that didn’t always completely fit with what came before.

I also think you misunderstood what I meant by “rectifying.” Honestly for the most part I meant solving the absurd idea of the films being all about “the tragedy of Darth Vader.” No matter who was in charge of these films (even if they were Lucas), they’d be fixing that.

I can see where you’re going, and in some respects probably even agree, but for me seeing Luke raise his lightsaber over the head of his sleeping nephew, and to hear Luke say, he cannot save Ben, whilst Leia says her son is gone, far more fundamentally alters the spirit of the series than Lucas’ prequels ever did.

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DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

As usual I’ll have to strongly disagree. IV, V, VI, VII, VIII is already far more emotionally satisfying than I, II, III, IV, V, VI ever was. Going from III to IV is much more jarring a shift than going from VI to VII (and I’m not talking about quality). Just because nothing important plot-wise happens in between the PT and the OT doesn’t make them a cohesive and continuous unit, far from it. Lucas’s conception of the six episode saga was incredibly faulty and unsatisfactory. Hard to say how the nine episode saga will look without having seen the last chapter, but it can’t be anymore slapdash than the six episode one (if anything it’s working to rectify the problems).

I’ll have to strongly disagree too. 😉 The PT is conceptually, and visually far more interesting to me than the ST, and that’s coming from someone who feels the PT is deeply flawed. I also don’t feel, it’s the current owners’ job to rectify percieved problems with Lucas’ story. Write your own story with your own characters, if you feel, you can do better. I prefer the OT as a three act story over Lucas’ six part saga, but I appreciate the creative vision he was going for while developing the PT. The ST feels like a postmodern take on the OT to me. It’s interesting as a sort of meta commentary on the story that preceeded it, but also in many ways the antithesis of what Star Wars used to be, and for many is supposed to be.

I’ll just say the ST feels far more in the spirit and heart of what Lucas originally conceived for the series than the PT ever did. Not antithesis at all, but a perfectly fitting continuation of what Star Wars is all about. Whereas I see the PT as being George trying to fundamentally realign the scope and drive of the series in a way that didn’t always completely fit with what came before.

I also think you misunderstood what I meant by “rectifying.” Honestly for the most part I meant solving the absurd idea of the films being all about “the tragedy of Darth Vader.” No matter who was in charge of these films (even if they were Lucas), they’d be fixing that.

I can see where you’re going, and in some respects probably even agree, but for me seeing Luke raise his lightsaber over the head of his sleeping nephew, and to hear Luke say, he cannot save Ben

Whilst ignoring what came next…

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Finished my second viewing. Not much changed opinion-wise. I still think it’s at least two movies crammed into one and done so at the expense of both. Leia, Poe, Finn, and Rose could be one film. Luke, Rey, Chewie could be another. Not sure where Kylo fits in. I just don’t find him interesting. The Snoke and Phasma stories are just more needless cramming of partial ideas.

As a narrative, it’s all over the place. I’m fine with two story lines at once and I think Empire Strikes Back did it fantastically. Films and TV shows have been doing it for decades and doing it well. This felt jarring at times. The switches seem to come at odd places and kill the momentum and engagement. Also, there seems to be so many that none are given any room to grow and they end up feeling rushed. In fact, the whole film feels rushed to me.

I was better with the Ahch-To portion of the film. It wasn’t as foreign feeling. That said, I felt even more so that Rey is nearly a one-dimensional character now. Sort of an audience surrogate so Luke isn’t just standing on the shore conversing with the ocean. She becomes even more so as the film goes along. Hopefully IX will give her some depth. Daisy has the chops for it.

The Rose and Finn storyline still interested me and I think both are on their game here. As I said before, I really hope Ms Tran gets a substantial role in IX. She has much more to offer and definitely has the chops. She and Finn work well together. The Canto portion still looks and feels like Lucas Prequel to me. BB-8 shooting slot machine coins is terribly prequel. Same for the kids at the end. The last scene looks like it was shot on a Broadway stage. Their home, clothes, and makeup look fake dirty.

Liked the Crait portion even more than the first time. There are some great visuals and they aren’t the ones they may have intended, not for me anyway. I thought a lot of the darker shots, particularly some of 3PO and Luke were nicely done. Even if they were for just a few seconds, they still worked for me. I’ll try to post some screen-grabs. Overall, I don’t dislike it and will certainly watch several parts again.

Still like the Porgs. 😃

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Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

NeverarGreat said:

DominicCobb said:

As usual I’ll have to strongly disagree. IV, V, VI, VII, VIII is already far more emotionally satisfying than I, II, III, IV, V, VI ever was. Going from III to IV is much more jarring a shift than going from VI to VII (and I’m not talking about quality). Just because nothing important plot-wise happens in between the PT and the OT doesn’t make them a cohesive and continuous unit, far from it. Lucas’s conception of the six episode saga was incredibly faulty and unsatisfactory. Hard to say how the nine episode saga will look without having seen the last chapter, but it can’t be anymore slapdash than the six episode one (if anything it’s working to rectify the problems).

Um what?
Between 3 and 4 the Empire grows in power as does the Rebellion, Luke and Leia grow up, and the Death Star is finally completed after 20 years. All of these things were set up in 3, and in fact one of the issues people have with that movie is how much hand-holding it does to make the universe continue relatively unchanged for two decades.

Between 6 and 7 the civil war officially ends with the Imperial remnant being exiled to the unknown regions, a new First Order arises from this remnant, Han and Leia officially get married then have a kid and Luke starts to form a new Jedi order then the Solo kid goes bad and destroys the order and Han and Leia break up and Luke goes into exile. Oh and the First Order is being run by a totally new warlord who is strong in the Force but unrelated to the Sith, they’ve somehow found a way to build a weapon much larger than any built by the Empire at the height of their power, and they’ve infiltrated the Republic Senate so far as to cast Leia out and force her to start her own miniature Rebellion.

You’ve clearly missed the point of my post. As I stated, plot-wise nothing important happens in between III and IV (as obviously opposed to between VI and VII). But the jump is nevertheless much more jarring, for other (in my opinion) far more important reasons.

what reasons?

For starters, scope and tone are big ones. Plus there’s the whole issue of us knowing crucial aspects of the saga that won’t be touched upon for almost two whole movies. Amongst other things.

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DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

As usual I’ll have to strongly disagree. IV, V, VI, VII, VIII is already far more emotionally satisfying than I, II, III, IV, V, VI ever was. Going from III to IV is much more jarring a shift than going from VI to VII (and I’m not talking about quality). Just because nothing important plot-wise happens in between the PT and the OT doesn’t make them a cohesive and continuous unit, far from it. Lucas’s conception of the six episode saga was incredibly faulty and unsatisfactory. Hard to say how the nine episode saga will look without having seen the last chapter, but it can’t be anymore slapdash than the six episode one (if anything it’s working to rectify the problems).

I’ll have to strongly disagree too. 😉 The PT is conceptually, and visually far more interesting to me than the ST, and that’s coming from someone who feels the PT is deeply flawed. I also don’t feel, it’s the current owners’ job to rectify percieved problems with Lucas’ story. Write your own story with your own characters, if you feel, you can do better. I prefer the OT as a three act story over Lucas’ six part saga, but I appreciate the creative vision he was going for while developing the PT. The ST feels like a postmodern take on the OT to me. It’s interesting as a sort of meta commentary on the story that preceeded it, but also in many ways the antithesis of what Star Wars used to be, and for many is supposed to be.

I’ll just say the ST feels far more in the spirit and heart of what Lucas originally conceived for the series than the PT ever did. Not antithesis at all, but a perfectly fitting continuation of what Star Wars is all about. Whereas I see the PT as being George trying to fundamentally realign the scope and drive of the series in a way that didn’t always completely fit with what came before.

I also think you misunderstood what I meant by “rectifying.” Honestly for the most part I meant solving the absurd idea of the films being all about “the tragedy of Darth Vader.” No matter who was in charge of these films (even if they were Lucas), they’d be fixing that.

I can see where you’re going, and in some respects probably even agree, but for me seeing Luke raise his lightsaber over the head of his sleeping nephew, and to hear Luke say, he cannot save Ben, whilst Leia says her son is gone, far more fundamentally alters the spirit of the series than Lucas’ prequels ever did.

Hard disagree. Doubt and imperfection was always a big part of the characters in the OT. What was important was that they came through in the end.

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TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

As usual I’ll have to strongly disagree. IV, V, VI, VII, VIII is already far more emotionally satisfying than I, II, III, IV, V, VI ever was. Going from III to IV is much more jarring a shift than going from VI to VII (and I’m not talking about quality). Just because nothing important plot-wise happens in between the PT and the OT doesn’t make them a cohesive and continuous unit, far from it. Lucas’s conception of the six episode saga was incredibly faulty and unsatisfactory. Hard to say how the nine episode saga will look without having seen the last chapter, but it can’t be anymore slapdash than the six episode one (if anything it’s working to rectify the problems).

I’ll have to strongly disagree too. 😉 The PT is conceptually, and visually far more interesting to me than the ST, and that’s coming from someone who feels the PT is deeply flawed. I also don’t feel, it’s the current owners’ job to rectify percieved problems with Lucas’ story. Write your own story with your own characters, if you feel, you can do better. I prefer the OT as a three act story over Lucas’ six part saga, but I appreciate the creative vision he was going for while developing the PT. The ST feels like a postmodern take on the OT to me. It’s interesting as a sort of meta commentary on the story that preceeded it, but also in many ways the antithesis of what Star Wars used to be, and for many is supposed to be.

I’ll just say the ST feels far more in the spirit and heart of what Lucas originally conceived for the series than the PT ever did. Not antithesis at all, but a perfectly fitting continuation of what Star Wars is all about. Whereas I see the PT as being George trying to fundamentally realign the scope and drive of the series in a way that didn’t always completely fit with what came before.

I also think you misunderstood what I meant by “rectifying.” Honestly for the most part I meant solving the absurd idea of the films being all about “the tragedy of Darth Vader.” No matter who was in charge of these films (even if they were Lucas), they’d be fixing that.

I can see where you’re going, and in some respects probably even agree, but for me seeing Luke raise his lightsaber over the head of his sleeping nephew, and to hear Luke say, he cannot save Ben

Whilst ignoring what came next…

Ignoring what?

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DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

As usual I’ll have to strongly disagree. IV, V, VI, VII, VIII is already far more emotionally satisfying than I, II, III, IV, V, VI ever was. Going from III to IV is much more jarring a shift than going from VI to VII (and I’m not talking about quality). Just because nothing important plot-wise happens in between the PT and the OT doesn’t make them a cohesive and continuous unit, far from it. Lucas’s conception of the six episode saga was incredibly faulty and unsatisfactory. Hard to say how the nine episode saga will look without having seen the last chapter, but it can’t be anymore slapdash than the six episode one (if anything it’s working to rectify the problems).

I’ll have to strongly disagree too. 😉 The PT is conceptually, and visually far more interesting to me than the ST, and that’s coming from someone who feels the PT is deeply flawed. I also don’t feel, it’s the current owners’ job to rectify percieved problems with Lucas’ story. Write your own story with your own characters, if you feel, you can do better. I prefer the OT as a three act story over Lucas’ six part saga, but I appreciate the creative vision he was going for while developing the PT. The ST feels like a postmodern take on the OT to me. It’s interesting as a sort of meta commentary on the story that preceeded it, but also in many ways the antithesis of what Star Wars used to be, and for many is supposed to be.

I’ll just say the ST feels far more in the spirit and heart of what Lucas originally conceived for the series than the PT ever did. Not antithesis at all, but a perfectly fitting continuation of what Star Wars is all about. Whereas I see the PT as being George trying to fundamentally realign the scope and drive of the series in a way that didn’t always completely fit with what came before.

I also think you misunderstood what I meant by “rectifying.” Honestly for the most part I meant solving the absurd idea of the films being all about “the tragedy of Darth Vader.” No matter who was in charge of these films (even if they were Lucas), they’d be fixing that.

I can see where you’re going, and in some respects probably even agree, but for me seeing Luke raise his lightsaber over the head of his sleeping nephew, and to hear Luke say, he cannot save Ben, whilst Leia says her son is gone, far more fundamentally alters the spirit of the series than Lucas’ prequels ever did.

Hard disagree. Doubt and imperfection was always a big part of the characters in the OT. What was important was that they came through in the end.

Giving up on your child is not doubt. Leia does not express doubt. She says “I know my son is gone”. That seems pretty final to me.

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DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

As usual I’ll have to strongly disagree. IV, V, VI, VII, VIII is already far more emotionally satisfying than I, II, III, IV, V, VI ever was. Going from III to IV is much more jarring a shift than going from VI to VII (and I’m not talking about quality). Just because nothing important plot-wise happens in between the PT and the OT doesn’t make them a cohesive and continuous unit, far from it. Lucas’s conception of the six episode saga was incredibly faulty and unsatisfactory. Hard to say how the nine episode saga will look without having seen the last chapter, but it can’t be anymore slapdash than the six episode one (if anything it’s working to rectify the problems).

I’ll have to strongly disagree too. 😉 The PT is conceptually, and visually far more interesting to me than the ST, and that’s coming from someone who feels the PT is deeply flawed. I also don’t feel, it’s the current owners’ job to rectify percieved problems with Lucas’ story. Write your own story with your own characters, if you feel, you can do better. I prefer the OT as a three act story over Lucas’ six part saga, but I appreciate the creative vision he was going for while developing the PT. The ST feels like a postmodern take on the OT to me. It’s interesting as a sort of meta commentary on the story that preceeded it, but also in many ways the antithesis of what Star Wars used to be, and for many is supposed to be.

I’ll just say the ST feels far more in the spirit and heart of what Lucas originally conceived for the series than the PT ever did. Not antithesis at all, but a perfectly fitting continuation of what Star Wars is all about. Whereas I see the PT as being George trying to fundamentally realign the scope and drive of the series in a way that didn’t always completely fit with what came before.

I also think you misunderstood what I meant by “rectifying.” Honestly for the most part I meant solving the absurd idea of the films being all about “the tragedy of Darth Vader.” No matter who was in charge of these films (even if they were Lucas), they’d be fixing that.

I can see where you’re going, and in some respects probably even agree, but for me seeing Luke raise his lightsaber over the head of his sleeping nephew, and to hear Luke say, he cannot save Ben, whilst Leia says her son is gone, far more fundamentally alters the spirit of the series than Lucas’ prequels ever did.

Hard disagree. Doubt and imperfection was always a big part of the characters in the OT. What was important was that they came through in the end.

Giving up on your child is not doubt. Leia does not express doubt. She says “I know my son is gone”. That seems pretty final to me.

It sounds exactly like a moment of doubt and weakness, considering the context.

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 (Edited)

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

As usual I’ll have to strongly disagree. IV, V, VI, VII, VIII is already far more emotionally satisfying than I, II, III, IV, V, VI ever was. Going from III to IV is much more jarring a shift than going from VI to VII (and I’m not talking about quality). Just because nothing important plot-wise happens in between the PT and the OT doesn’t make them a cohesive and continuous unit, far from it. Lucas’s conception of the six episode saga was incredibly faulty and unsatisfactory. Hard to say how the nine episode saga will look without having seen the last chapter, but it can’t be anymore slapdash than the six episode one (if anything it’s working to rectify the problems).

I’ll have to strongly disagree too. 😉 The PT is conceptually, and visually far more interesting to me than the ST, and that’s coming from someone who feels the PT is deeply flawed. I also don’t feel, it’s the current owners’ job to rectify percieved problems with Lucas’ story. Write your own story with your own characters, if you feel, you can do better. I prefer the OT as a three act story over Lucas’ six part saga, but I appreciate the creative vision he was going for while developing the PT. The ST feels like a postmodern take on the OT to me. It’s interesting as a sort of meta commentary on the story that preceeded it, but also in many ways the antithesis of what Star Wars used to be, and for many is supposed to be.

I’ll just say the ST feels far more in the spirit and heart of what Lucas originally conceived for the series than the PT ever did. Not antithesis at all, but a perfectly fitting continuation of what Star Wars is all about. Whereas I see the PT as being George trying to fundamentally realign the scope and drive of the series in a way that didn’t always completely fit with what came before.

I also think you misunderstood what I meant by “rectifying.” Honestly for the most part I meant solving the absurd idea of the films being all about “the tragedy of Darth Vader.” No matter who was in charge of these films (even if they were Lucas), they’d be fixing that.

I can see where you’re going, and in some respects probably even agree, but for me seeing Luke raise his lightsaber over the head of his sleeping nephew, and to hear Luke say, he cannot save Ben, whilst Leia says her son is gone, far more fundamentally alters the spirit of the series than Lucas’ prequels ever did.

Hard disagree. Doubt and imperfection was always a big part of the characters in the OT. What was important was that they came through in the end.

Giving up on your child is not doubt. Leia does not express doubt. She says “I know my son is gone”. That seems pretty final to me.

It sounds exactly like a moment of doubt and weakness, considering the context.

Considering Carrie Fisher is gone, and this is her last statement on the matter, it has a sense of finality to me. The last moment these iconic characters spend together is them giving up on Ben Solo. That’s my context for this scene.

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DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

As usual I’ll have to strongly disagree. IV, V, VI, VII, VIII is already far more emotionally satisfying than I, II, III, IV, V, VI ever was. Going from III to IV is much more jarring a shift than going from VI to VII (and I’m not talking about quality). Just because nothing important plot-wise happens in between the PT and the OT doesn’t make them a cohesive and continuous unit, far from it. Lucas’s conception of the six episode saga was incredibly faulty and unsatisfactory. Hard to say how the nine episode saga will look without having seen the last chapter, but it can’t be anymore slapdash than the six episode one (if anything it’s working to rectify the problems).

I’ll have to strongly disagree too. 😉 The PT is conceptually, and visually far more interesting to me than the ST, and that’s coming from someone who feels the PT is deeply flawed. I also don’t feel, it’s the current owners’ job to rectify percieved problems with Lucas’ story. Write your own story with your own characters, if you feel, you can do better. I prefer the OT as a three act story over Lucas’ six part saga, but I appreciate the creative vision he was going for while developing the PT. The ST feels like a postmodern take on the OT to me. It’s interesting as a sort of meta commentary on the story that preceeded it, but also in many ways the antithesis of what Star Wars used to be, and for many is supposed to be.

I’ll just say the ST feels far more in the spirit and heart of what Lucas originally conceived for the series than the PT ever did. Not antithesis at all, but a perfectly fitting continuation of what Star Wars is all about. Whereas I see the PT as being George trying to fundamentally realign the scope and drive of the series in a way that didn’t always completely fit with what came before.

I also think you misunderstood what I meant by “rectifying.” Honestly for the most part I meant solving the absurd idea of the films being all about “the tragedy of Darth Vader.” No matter who was in charge of these films (even if they were Lucas), they’d be fixing that.

I can see where you’re going, and in some respects probably even agree, but for me seeing Luke raise his lightsaber over the head of his sleeping nephew, and to hear Luke say, he cannot save Ben, whilst Leia says her son is gone, far more fundamentally alters the spirit of the series than Lucas’ prequels ever did.

Hard disagree. Doubt and imperfection was always a big part of the characters in the OT. What was important was that they came through in the end.

Giving up on your child is not doubt. Leia does not express doubt. She says “I know my son is gone”. That seems pretty final to me.

It sounds exactly like a moment of doubt and weakness, considering the context.

Considering Carrie Fisher is gone, and this is her last statement on the matter, it has a sense of finality to me. The last moment these iconic characters spend together is them giving up on Ben Solo. That’s my context for this scene.

The scene ends with Luke refuting her statement. Criticizing it based on Carrie’s passing is unfair to say the least.

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 (Edited)

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

As usual I’ll have to strongly disagree. IV, V, VI, VII, VIII is already far more emotionally satisfying than I, II, III, IV, V, VI ever was. Going from III to IV is much more jarring a shift than going from VI to VII (and I’m not talking about quality). Just because nothing important plot-wise happens in between the PT and the OT doesn’t make them a cohesive and continuous unit, far from it. Lucas’s conception of the six episode saga was incredibly faulty and unsatisfactory. Hard to say how the nine episode saga will look without having seen the last chapter, but it can’t be anymore slapdash than the six episode one (if anything it’s working to rectify the problems).

I’ll have to strongly disagree too. 😉 The PT is conceptually, and visually far more interesting to me than the ST, and that’s coming from someone who feels the PT is deeply flawed. I also don’t feel, it’s the current owners’ job to rectify percieved problems with Lucas’ story. Write your own story with your own characters, if you feel, you can do better. I prefer the OT as a three act story over Lucas’ six part saga, but I appreciate the creative vision he was going for while developing the PT. The ST feels like a postmodern take on the OT to me. It’s interesting as a sort of meta commentary on the story that preceeded it, but also in many ways the antithesis of what Star Wars used to be, and for many is supposed to be.

I’ll just say the ST feels far more in the spirit and heart of what Lucas originally conceived for the series than the PT ever did. Not antithesis at all, but a perfectly fitting continuation of what Star Wars is all about. Whereas I see the PT as being George trying to fundamentally realign the scope and drive of the series in a way that didn’t always completely fit with what came before.

I also think you misunderstood what I meant by “rectifying.” Honestly for the most part I meant solving the absurd idea of the films being all about “the tragedy of Darth Vader.” No matter who was in charge of these films (even if they were Lucas), they’d be fixing that.

I can see where you’re going, and in some respects probably even agree, but for me seeing Luke raise his lightsaber over the head of his sleeping nephew, and to hear Luke say, he cannot save Ben, whilst Leia says her son is gone, far more fundamentally alters the spirit of the series than Lucas’ prequels ever did.

Hard disagree. Doubt and imperfection was always a big part of the characters in the OT. What was important was that they came through in the end.

Giving up on your child is not doubt. Leia does not express doubt. She says “I know my son is gone”. That seems pretty final to me.

It sounds exactly like a moment of doubt and weakness, considering the context.

Considering Carrie Fisher is gone, and this is her last statement on the matter, it has a sense of finality to me. The last moment these iconic characters spend together is them giving up on Ben Solo. That’s my context for this scene.

The scene ends with Luke refuting her statement.

Luke is the first in the scene to say, he cannot save Ben, so his statement that nobody’s ever really gone feels pretty hollow to me.

Criticizing it based on Carrie’s passing is unfair to say the least.

Considering TLJ was edited and released after her passing, I think it’s very appropriate. RJ was perfectly aware, that this is the last scene these characters share together.

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DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

As usual I’ll have to strongly disagree. IV, V, VI, VII, VIII is already far more emotionally satisfying than I, II, III, IV, V, VI ever was. Going from III to IV is much more jarring a shift than going from VI to VII (and I’m not talking about quality). Just because nothing important plot-wise happens in between the PT and the OT doesn’t make them a cohesive and continuous unit, far from it. Lucas’s conception of the six episode saga was incredibly faulty and unsatisfactory. Hard to say how the nine episode saga will look without having seen the last chapter, but it can’t be anymore slapdash than the six episode one (if anything it’s working to rectify the problems).

I’ll have to strongly disagree too. 😉 The PT is conceptually, and visually far more interesting to me than the ST, and that’s coming from someone who feels the PT is deeply flawed. I also don’t feel, it’s the current owners’ job to rectify percieved problems with Lucas’ story. Write your own story with your own characters, if you feel, you can do better. I prefer the OT as a three act story over Lucas’ six part saga, but I appreciate the creative vision he was going for while developing the PT. The ST feels like a postmodern take on the OT to me. It’s interesting as a sort of meta commentary on the story that preceeded it, but also in many ways the antithesis of what Star Wars used to be, and for many is supposed to be.

I’ll just say the ST feels far more in the spirit and heart of what Lucas originally conceived for the series than the PT ever did. Not antithesis at all, but a perfectly fitting continuation of what Star Wars is all about. Whereas I see the PT as being George trying to fundamentally realign the scope and drive of the series in a way that didn’t always completely fit with what came before.

I also think you misunderstood what I meant by “rectifying.” Honestly for the most part I meant solving the absurd idea of the films being all about “the tragedy of Darth Vader.” No matter who was in charge of these films (even if they were Lucas), they’d be fixing that.

I can see where you’re going, and in some respects probably even agree, but for me seeing Luke raise his lightsaber over the head of his sleeping nephew, and to hear Luke say, he cannot save Ben, whilst Leia says her son is gone, far more fundamentally alters the spirit of the series than Lucas’ prequels ever did.

Hard disagree. Doubt and imperfection was always a big part of the characters in the OT. What was important was that they came through in the end.

Giving up on your child is not doubt. Leia does not express doubt. She says “I know my son is gone”. That seems pretty final to me.

It sounds exactly like a moment of doubt and weakness, considering the context.

Considering Carrie Fisher is gone, and this is her last statement on the matter, it has a sense of finality to me. The last moment these iconic characters spend together is them giving up on Ben Solo. That’s my context for this scene.

The scene ends with Luke refuting her statement.

Luke is the first in the scene to say, he cannot save Ben, so his statement that nobody’s ever really gone feels pretty hollow to me.

Like says he cannot save him, not that he cannot be saved. Big difference.

Criticizing it based on Carrie’s passing is unfair to say the least.

Considering TLJ was edited and released after her passing, I think it’s very appropriate. RJ was perfectly aware, that this is the last scene these characters share together.

Rian made the tough but absolutely respectable decision to keep Fisher’s work in tact. Considering as I said, Luke refutes the statement, there’s nothing about Leia’s brief doubt that ruins a perfectly fitting last scene for the pair.

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DrDre said:
I agree. The PT ends where the OT begins, right down to the twin sunset on Tatooine. Going from ROTJ to TFA is far more jarring to me, where an obvious total victory is suddenly and without explanation completely reversed, while all the victors have become shadows of their former selves. General Solo has again become a smuggler in debt with everyone, who hides from his problems. Luke’s hiding from his problems on a rock, and has closed himself off from the Force. Even Leia has been demoted from princess, and senator to the general of an even smaller band of rebels, whilst Han and Leia have apparently won the worst parents of the year award.

This is my main issue with the ST. Despite the fact that they’re very good films, the story is just so nonsensical to me. What we’re told happened between VI and VII is far more interesting to me than what’s happening in VII and VIII. We’re right back where we started in the OT (if not worse, the rebels are down to a handful of folk on the falcon), with no real explanation as to how we got there after the triumphant victory in VI.

I would have much more enjoyed a story of how Ben got seduced by Snoke, how the First Order came to be, etc.

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The thing is, a Cold War (to me at least) wouldn’t feel very Star-Warsy to watch. Maybe as a novel, sure, but espionage and betrayal being the main driving force behind a space action serial for all ages would seem out of place.

I remember on the drive home from the premiere of TFA with my brother, I said to him “I thought it was fucking awesome how after the shit politics scenes driving the prequels, they literally blew up politics in this one!”

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mfastx said:

DrDre said:
I agree. The PT ends where the OT begins, right down to the twin sunset on Tatooine. Going from ROTJ to TFA is far more jarring to me, where an obvious total victory is suddenly and without explanation completely reversed, while all the victors have become shadows of their former selves. General Solo has again become a smuggler in debt with everyone, who hides from his problems. Luke’s hiding from his problems on a rock, and has closed himself off from the Force. Even Leia has been demoted from princess, and senator to the general of an even smaller band of rebels, whilst Han and Leia have apparently won the worst parents of the year award.

I would have much more enjoyed a story of how Ben got seduced by Snoke, how the First Order came to be, etc.

let’s play with some keywords here and see what we get:

“I would have much more enjoyed a story of how Anakin got seduced by The Emperor, how the Empire came to be, etc.”

sounds familiar?

snooker said:

I remember on the drive home from the premiere of TFA with my brother, I said to him “I thought it was fucking awesome how after the shit politics scenes driving the prequels, they literally blew up politics in this one!”

i mean, it’s pretty hard to have a war without having politics. war is directly tied to politics, so i really didn’t appreciate the “screw politics!” aspect of TFA. and honestly, except for some of the senate scenes in TPM i quite enjoy the politics in the prequels.

not to mention we’re given almost no context regarding the current state of the galaxy, something a bit of expository dialogue in a politics scene would do wonders to help fix.

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mfastx said:

DrDre said:
I agree. The PT ends where the OT begins, right down to the twin sunset on Tatooine. Going from ROTJ to TFA is far more jarring to me, where an obvious total victory is suddenly and without explanation completely reversed, while all the victors have become shadows of their former selves. General Solo has again become a smuggler in debt with everyone, who hides from his problems. Luke’s hiding from his problems on a rock, and has closed himself off from the Force. Even Leia has been demoted from princess, and senator to the general of an even smaller band of rebels, whilst Han and Leia have apparently won the worst parents of the year award.

This is my main issue with the ST. Despite the fact that they’re very good films, the story is just so nonsensical to me. What we’re told happened between VI and VII is far more interesting to me than what’s happening in VII and VIII. We’re right back where we started in the OT (if not worse, the rebels are down to a handful of folk on the falcon), with no real explanation as to how we got there after the triumphant victory in VI.

I would have much more enjoyed a story of how Ben got seduced by Snoke, how the First Order came to be, etc.

I can understand not liking what you got but how is that “nonsensical?”

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mfastx said:

DrDre said:
I agree. The PT ends where the OT begins, right down to the twin sunset on Tatooine. Going from ROTJ to TFA is far more jarring to me, where an obvious total victory is suddenly and without explanation completely reversed, while all the victors have become shadows of their former selves. General Solo has again become a smuggler in debt with everyone, who hides from his problems. Luke’s hiding from his problems on a rock, and has closed himself off from the Force. Even Leia has been demoted from princess, and senator to the general of an even smaller band of rebels, whilst Han and Leia have apparently won the worst parents of the year award.

This is my main issue with the ST. Despite the fact that they’re very good films, the story is just so nonsensical to me. What we’re told happened between VI and VII is far more interesting to me than what’s happening in VII and VIII. We’re right back where we started in the OT (if not worse, the rebels are down to a handful of folk on the falcon), with no real explanation as to how we got there after the triumphant victory in VI.

I would have much more enjoyed a story of how Ben got seduced by Snoke, how the First Order came to be, etc.

Many who don’t like it see things back where the OT began, but it isn’t. That is my point. While there are echoes of the OT in the ST (there were in the PT as well), the ST is telling a unique story that I don’t think we will totally see until the third story is out for us to follow the plots. In TLJ, the First Order has not yet taken over. Rey says it directly. While the Republic government and fleet have been wiped out, the First Order still has to actually seize power. They have only eliminated the other power that Snoke thought could stop him. We are no in the same place at the end of TLJ that we were at the beginning of ANH. It is a must different landscape. For one thing, there were no Jedi on the Galactic stage in ANH. There is Luke and Rey in TLJ and Luke has just left a lasting impression to give power to the new rebellion. Please find that in the years leading up to ANH. Even Rebels doesn’t have such a public display of power, and definitely not one that spread like wildfire across the galaxy.

The mere existence of the Resistance and Leia’s role as its leader tells us that the new Republic is not what she had hoped and that she fears they do not take the First Order seriously. It paints a picture of a complacent Republic that is probably more worried about internal squabbles than a theoretical outside threat. That they had so few ships that the entire fleet was in orbit of the capital shows that it it was a very weak republic.

And I’ve seen several comments about continuing the OT the way George would do it, and guess what, they are. The basic plot elements, some of the very ones people are complaining the most about, were penned by George. They created their own cast of characters, but the broad arc of the trilogy seems to be following George’s treatment. Luke’s exile is the single item we can point to with absolutely certainty as coming directly from George himself, but the broad arcs fit with that. As does Luke now being the mentor as Ben was in the OT. The fact that George had an idea for a sequel and that it went so far as a treatment means he had conflict. It means he is the one who decided to derail the happy ending many imagine for post ROTJ. He seems to have given them a decade or two before ruining things for them Han and Leia have a son, there is a new Republic, but you can’t have the next chapter of a saga if things are all still rosy.

I seriously don’t get what some of you want. Do you want a sequel trilogy with a story or a pointless story set in a perfect Utopia? To get a story you have to have conflict and the easiest way to get it is for things to go wrong. In the ST we are getting, things went wrong about 15-20 years after ROTJ (and ROTJ wasn’t the last battle). That is 15-20 years when things went right. The Republic was flourishing and Han and Leia were together. And the worst part is you are blaming Kennedy, and Johnson and leaving out Lucas and Abrams. This whole ST is Lucas’s doing. He created a treatment, he sold his company, he turned it over to Kennedy. How much of his treatment they are using is unknown, but they are using his girl force sensitive hero and his exiled Luke and I bet there is a lot more they are using. But let’s sit tight and wait for IX before we write off the ST. We can’t even tell what the main story is, just like the redemption of Anakin/Vader didn’t become part of the story until ROTJ. In the PT, we all knew where it would end up so we knew the arc from the moment we heard the name Anakin.

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DominicCobb said:
Rian made the tough but absolutely respectable decision to keep Fisher’s work in tact. Considering as I said, Luke refutes the statement, there’s nothing about Leia’s brief doubt that ruins a perfectly fitting last scene for the pair.

I agree. I think that’s one of the strongest, if not the strongest passages in the film. I took his “no one’s ever really gone” to mean no one is ever really gone because they live on in your memories of them. They live on in the way they were part of your journey. He says that as he’s giving her Han’s lucky dice. She must also have some fond memories of her son and he lives on that way, a pleasant way.

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One thing that I’ve mentioned before that no one seems to really talk about is that Leia left the dice behind, presumably for Ben to find. It’s a small thing that tells me she’s still trying to reach out to her son anyway she can, even when the situation doesn’t otherwise allow for it. Because I think for her the hope is back. She did have that brief moment where it seemed like they really were helpless, and that Kylo and the FO really were going to wipe them out. But Luke gave them all a chance to survive and a reason to hope again.