Well, I disagree entirely. First off, it is obvious we are supposed to side with Poe. Holdo is expecting Poe to follow orders. That he doesn’t is not surprising because she doesn’t share what she is doing. And ultimately it is Poe who turns Holdo’s cunning plan into a disaster. Poe sends Finn and Rose off to solve the problem his way. A daring venture full of risks with a possible payoff. But because they do not find the hacker that Maz recommends (probably because he can be trusted) and they end up with DJ and DJ learns of Holdo’s plan, when the mission goes sour he uses that to get himself out of trouble. As a result most of the resistance is destroyed, rather than losing the one ship and hiding out on Crait until someone came to get them. Poe is a hotshot pilot but that is not what makes a leader. Knowing when to not be the hotshot and play it safe is the lesson he needed and he got it the hard way. However the movie makes it very clear that if he hadn’t gone ahead and destroyed the dreadnaught at the beginning, it would have wiped them out later. So his first reckless act that he got demoted for turned out to be the right thing to do at the time, but after the fallout, Poe is making wiser decisions. Not bad for a character Abrams almost killed off.
That story line is full of old war movie tropes. How Holdo treats Poe, how Poe reacts, and how he learns. That may not be your real world experience, but it is many people’s. And Holdo doesn’t seem like she is much of a people person. One of those who rose to command through brilliant tactics. She obviously is a friend of Leia’s. So her tough treatment of Poe makes a lot of sense. Military methods of leadership are not the same as private sector methods. The military needs people who will follow orders without question plus brilliant strategists. So using civilian leadership techniques to critique a military interaction doesn’t work well. The same rules don’t apply. There is a reason why the traditional drill sergeant is tough and gruff. Dressing down a subordinate in a military setting isn’t about their well being, it is about their discipline and willingness to follow orders. In a military setting you need someone who will not panic and will act on their training no matter the price. In a civilian setting an employee’s life is rarely on the line and you rarely need blind obedience. So it is comparing apples to oranges.
So both on the writing side and on the realism side, this part of the story reflects some brilliant writing. I find the entire movie to be brilliant. I love it more the more I watch it. And it is definitely very Star Wars. War movies and samurai movies were very much a part of the original trilogy and Rian Johnson captured that part far better than Abrams did in TFA. I watched Twelve O’Clock High and Three Outlaw Samurai after I heard they, plus To Catch A Thief, were classics Rian Johnson was watching to prepare for this movie. Three brilliant films that definitely had an influence.
Maybe you should read the link I posted from someone with actual military experience
Still leaning on this I see.
C’mon Frink, no-one in the military has ever got it wrong! We should read everything anyone who has fought says - or else we may not think as Dre wishes, as our lives may depend on it some day, otherwise an ER tv doctor will not save us - or something…
All for a link to article about Holdo not being a feminist (going on the url) - according to someone with actual military experience - who is giving their opinion - not fact - opinion.
My uncle has military experience - served in Northern Ireland. I wouldn’t listen to his opinion on Star Wars - he doesn’t like it. That’s okay. If he wrote an article on SW - or feminism - I wouldn’t read it. Still love him to bits like. If he does write an articles on Star Wars feel free not to read it - or read it, if you want - your call.
C’mon Jason, you wouldn’t know, because you didn’t read the guy’s opinion. Could he be wrong? Sure, but it’s less likely than let’s say the opinion of a mod on a Star Wars forum. If you can present another opinion, that’s actually based on relevant experience or expertise, rather than being a fan of a movie, that refutes this guy’s argument, I will gladly read it. He can even call me a man baby, since expertise and personality are generally not correlated (for example, I would gladly be operated by a brilliant churgin, who’s also an *******). However, until that day comes, I choose to trust a veteran’s opinion over a Star Wars fan when it comes to military situations.
My uncle’s opinion? Not interested - it’s not an ‘expert opinion’ in the context of is Holdo a feminist or not, and comparing real life military to a sci-fi film. I think I’ve already said that - though you seem to ignore many points and questions I’ve previously made/asked on the subject. Please feel free to read them back again - or seemingly not.
My opinion on Holdo being a feminist or not has less value because of someone who fought? Okay…
To be honest - you shouldn’t listen to my opinion - mod or not (What on earth? It doesn’t mean a thing - and am quite surprised you allude it does) - go form your own opinions. You’re free to do that - some have fought for that, so we can make up own own minds and then state them.
I don’t have to refute a man’s opinion or article, nor do I have to read every link put in front of me. Yet I can still state my opinion - and I will do. You want to give it a measure of value? Okay.
You seem very hung up on the feminist angle. Even if that were relevant to judgement of the whole military situation, you don’t know the context of the word, since you didn’t read the article.
Hung up on the feminist angle? No, it is in the url link to the article we are discussing though, isn’t it? A military veteran’s ‘expert opinion’ on Holdo not being a feminist… I’ve stated that a few times - pretty consistent, yes?
You are also not being very consistent. You claim real life military experience is not relevant to a sci-fi film, yet you were happy to link to an article a while ago, where another “expert” believed Holdo’s lightspeed kamikaze was physically possible. Apparently expert opinions are only relevant if they support your narrative.
Nah mate, I post articles for info and that they may be of interest to some - whether people actually read them, believe them, dismiss them, or ignore them is completely up to them. I also don’t repeatedly post about why people should read them - or claim they contain ‘expert opinions’ - so they should.
LOL, I just added a line in my previous post, where I predicted just this answer. You didn’t post it for your own benefit, but for others, and it just happened to support your narrative accidentally. Nice one!
I post a few articles, pics, political content and news pieces I think some here may be interested in. I think I’ve done it for a good few years here. Yet you seem surprised by this? Or have an issue with this?
Yes, it’s the article where you claimed you didn’t judge a book by it’s cover. Yet, you continue to bring up the title “not being a feminist” like it’s some sort of mantra.
I think you’re the one continuing to being up the subject of the article - not me.
Though I didn’t actually claim that I didn’t judge a book by it’s cover - I did, however, post this…
Allways good to hear from someone who knows what he’s talking about. A military veteran gives a real world account of leadership, and why Holdo did not display good leadership while in command:
I haven’t read the link - though think Holdo demonstrated good leadership in sacrificing herself to save the remaining Rebels in those unarmed ships being easily picked off by the First Order.
I don’t really need to read the views of a military veteran to understand or appreciate this - nor do I care for a military veteran’s reasons as to why she wasn’t a feminist (going on the url link) - or indeed why some think being a feminist matters in this context - but am sure it will come in handy for those that do. Nice one.
You shouldn’t judge a book by its cover, seems an apt statement here.
I believe we should read something first before commenting on it, but anyways in response to your belief that she displayed good leadership, and the fact that you seem to believe uninformed opinion trumps actual combat and leadership experience relating to a combat situation, here goes:
Mate, it’s not a case of judging a book by it’s cover - it’s a case of no longer still being interested in the topic at hand (which to me has been done to death - and then repeated some more, and then dug up again too) - and also not being interested in the views linked in that article you posted upon reading it’s url link.
So hardly an uninformed opinion on this subject, no?
If this combat veteran believes it was poor leadership cool - I don’t. I also don’t read up other articles from combat veterans when they are unhappy with events from other films that I have no issue with either. Nor those that wish to discuss why someone wasn’t a feminist (going on the url link). Well in to those that do, if that’s their thing, though.
I don’t have the time or energy to read through every link on here - and am certainly not going to spend time on this subject which frankly… doesn’t interest me, and I don’t have a problem with.
My previous post stands as it is - and as I said in that post… fair play that your link may interest others. Nice one.
‘it’s not a case of judging a book by it’s cover’ - yes? (rhetorical).
I think we’re done here - the points made in the original post still stand - as you can plainly see. That you try and twist them (again) is on you.