Politics 2: Electric Boogaloo — Page 798

TV’s Frink said:

Mrebo said:

TV’s Frink said:

Mrebo said:

I expect that in an increasingly egalitarian society diversity occurs naturally.

Let me know when it happens.

I think it’s happening all the time.

Ah, problem solved then.

Spoiler - it’s not even close.

How will you know when we’ve gotten there?

As they say, you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink.

(For Frink’s ocular sensors only: We all have our ways of rubbing others the wrong way. When you don’t have the appetite to engage in deep debate, I don’t let it bother me much. I have my indirect and non-explicit posts, like this one calling you a horse.)

Jay said:

TV’s Frink said:

Mrebo said:

TV’s Frink said:

Mrebo said:

I expect that in an increasingly egalitarian society diversity occurs naturally.

Let me know when it happens.

I think it’s happening all the time.

Ah, problem solved then.

Spoiler - it’s not even close.

Stop watching media that tells you everything is awful and the world is ending because your candidate lost. It’s poisoning your mind.

Uh, everything is awful and the world pretty much is in the toilet. I don’t know what comedy has to do with it (other than that it’s tragically funny), but the environment is being trashed, the United States is an abject joke thanks largely to President Gameshow Host, we’re just waiting for another recession since we’re in a boom-bust economy, the Middle East is still a hotbed of craziness, the middle class is disappearing, we’re killing 90% civilians in our military strikes. I could go on forever. I don’t understand the notion that the world is anything other than a total disaster right now. It pretty much always has been, but it’s definitely amped up these days.

chyron8472 said:

Jeebus said:

chyron8472 said:

Mrebo said:

I must be blessed to not suffer any white male guilt.

To some degree, I genuinely feel that people need to be responsible for themselves and stop blaming the rest of society. For example, I understand that the colonists that appeared in America back in the day did horrible things to the Native Americans. I understand that much of the Native American population is poor. But at some point I really don’t see the value in the United States government giving reparations to them anymore.

The value is in helping disadvantaged groups get out of artificial poverty. It’s really hard for people to “pull themselves by their bootstraps” out of a hole that America dug and threw them into. You agree that Native Americans are not doing well right now, and I hope you can agree that it’s largely due to America’s past actions. Why prolong their suffering?

I’m fairly certain people in Europe conquered other people in Europe over the centuries, and I doubt many of the conquered over there get reparations for it. I know that sounds callous, but I still feel that way.

Because getting a handout does not help one feel successful. I understand some people need it, but it will not ultimately motivate them to create a situation for themselves where they don’t need it. In some respect, people may even take it for granted and come to accept indefinite dependence on it.

I don’t see how this is at all analogous.

It is analogous because, although it’s hard for people to “pull themselves up by their bootstraps”, to some degree it is necessary. If you want something bad enough, you need to fight for it. Having the government paying them does not necessarily ultimately lessen their suffering, but rather allows it to fester, because sometimes pain is necessary to affect change. Removing pain caused by injury does not necessarily help the injury to heal itself.

One of the most surprising things to me is the increase in minority support for Trump since he’s been in office, especially among blacks. Part of what’s driving that upswing – which I think is only going to continue trending in that direction – is a movement on the center-right to get black people thinking about what exactly the Democrats have done to improve their lives in the last 60 years (or ever, really). Black conservatives like Larry Elders argue black people overall have it worse since the Civil Rights Act passed, not better.

That just means that Larry Elder is really, really dishonest. The Democratic Party did spearhead the Civil and Voting Rights Acts. That’s pretty fucking important. I don’t see how any person with any knowledge of American history could claim that the Democratic Party has done nothing to improve the lives of black people over the last 60 years. That’s just a crazy conservative propaganda point. And the black approval rating of Trump is still less than 20%. I don’t understand why conservatives think that’s something to brag about. Plus, a quick Google search reveals that Trump’s approval rating among blacks is actually lower now than it was last year. There is no trend of minority support for Trump. And Larry Elder is not center-right. He’s really far to the right.

Way more kids raised without fathers, millions of black men in prison thanks in large part to crime bills supported by black community leadership like Sharpton and Jackson and signed by President Clinton, insane black-on-black crime rates, a drug war supported by both parties that has disproportionately affected black people, etc.

Well the War on Drugs is bipartisan, but who do you see on the Republican side that wants to end it? I think Rand Paul might, but other than him, no one. Trump’s AG pick is in favor of amping up the War on Drugs. You know who did want to end the War on Drugs? Crazy leftist candidate Bernie Sanders. You know who didn’t? Corporate, center-right candidate Hillary Clinton.

Now that’s not to suggest that the Civil Rights Act caused these problems, just that it hasn’t done anything to solve them.

Of course it didn’t, because they’re separate problems. The War on Drugs has been after the Civil Rights Act. The Civil Rights Act ended segregation and killed the last remnants of Jim Crow, which definitely has bettered the lives of black people. The Voting Rights Act allowed them to exercise their right to vote. You go back even further, and you’ll see it was President Harry Truman (who really didn’t even have the best Civil Rights record) that desegregated the military by executive order. There’s no reason to act as though it’s surprising that black people support the Democratic Party, in spite of how imperfect its record has been, especially since Republicans have employed the racist Southern Strategy in every election since 1964.

Despite every white person supposedly being consciously or subconsciously racist,

I need to see some evidence of real politicians making this claim, or at least someone other than a crazed college-campus radical.

Maybe telling someone they’re a victim of their circumstances and their race from the day they’re born sets them up with a poor foundation for success.

Well I’ve never said that and I’ve certainly never heard anyone say that. I kind of get what you’re saying about that notion being disempowering, but I’m just not seeing that notion as being pervasive. Typically what people are calling for on the left is for an end to the war on drugs, improvements in public education, free college, police reform, and healthcare for all. Those aren’t just handouts because someone’s race makes them a victim.

The movement is pushing for black people to stop blaming white people because it hasn’t moved the black community forward, stop looking to politicians (even black politicians) to solve their problems, and look to themselves to figure out a way forward.

Do black people really do this? Black people typically have to solve their own problems because no one else in America usually cares about their problems. There’s hundreds of years of history in which black Americans have had to fend for themselves. This idea that black people are just waiting for other people to solve their problems for them is a fucking fantasy, and an ignorant insult. Plus it’s a flawed call to action anyway. I don’t know how black people are going to improve public education in their neighborhoods without politicians, or how they’ll deal with housing discrimination without government intervention. I don’t understand this.

Jay said:
“You’re quite obviously wrong, and I can’t be bothered to explain why.”

I feel the need to point out that you have done exactly this to me.

Jay said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Jay said:
“You’re quite obviously wrong, and I can’t be bothered to explain why.”

I feel the need to point out that you have done exactly this to me.

I don’t remember the exact post(s), but I’m guessing you and I had to go in circles before I ended up in that place; it probably wasn’t for lack of trying, and I probably only went there out of frustration. Frink defaults to that point of view. Not the same thing.

No, you repeatedly ignored almost everything I said about Jordan Peterson and then refused to acknowledge my actual arguments, only singling out specific sentences out of context and acting as though my entire posts were unreasonable based on that and then said you were no longer willing to address anything I said. So, you’re right, it’s not the same thing. You also employed some great ad-hominem attacks about how I’m irrational and don’t have a grasp on reality because I’m delusional and some other irrelevant bullshit that had nothing to do with what I was arguing. If you’re going to that, I’m all for it. I have no problem with such tactics, and I even employ them myself from time to time, but let’s at least admit that it happens. That’s all I ask.

I found your previous post mostly reasonable except for the whole “the world is in the shitter” thing. I’m guessing we could pick any year on the calendar and had you been alive at that time, you would’ve been saying the world is in terrible shape. A negative outlook on life tends to do that.

If you read my post then you’d have seen that I acknowledged that. I just don’t like the method of stifling criticism of the world by bringing up that other times have been bad too. I don’t see how that’s helpful or even relevant. I’m also curious about what you disagree with me on aside from that since the rest of my what you call “mostly reasonable” post was dedicated to debunking the black Republican movement that you say is supposedly happening where black people are somehow coming to the baffling realization that the Democratic has made their lives worse over the last 60 years.

I don’t think the world is at its worst. I think the worst of the world is on the news and social media 24 hours a day, everything has become politicized, and it’s eating away at people’s sense of well-being. I decided not to be a victim of that mentality any longer. The truth, despite all the imperfect things about this world, is that this is probably the best time to be alive in human history.

Are you going to address anything that I actually said about why the world is a disaster overall? Regardless of whether it’s the best time to be alive, which I agree that it is, the world is still largely in very poor hands.