Jay said:
I do the same when the right is intellectually dishonest.I’ve yet to see this happen.
Must never have happened then.
I know it didn’t happen. You refused to call out the intellectual dishonesty of Jordan Peterson, for example. When he says that lack of religion causes immorality, he’s factually incorrect to the point of potentially being an outright liar because it’s documented that the less religious a society, the lower its crime rate. That’s just one example of right wing dishonesty that’s come up in this thread that you’ve been silent on. I wouldn’t mind if you didn’t act as though you’re a neutral voice on this. You obviously, at the very least, lean right. Every person reading this thread can tell. That’s fine, I just don’t get why you want there to be a pretense of you being a centrist.
Most of the bullshit I see in this thread is left-leaning bullshit because most of the posters are left-leaning. Naturally, I sound right-leaning compared to most of you. To the far left, anything not bleeding-heart liberalism is “to the right”.
Not true. Rightwing bullshit is brought up all the time in this thread. Granted, mostly by left-leaning people that are complaining about it, but it’s still being brought up. The “far left” by the way is barely even represented in our government. To the right, everything even just in the center is socialism. The biggest lie that the right in this country has perpetuated is that Obama and the Democratic Party, which is corporate to the bone and totally bought and paid for, is leftist and socialist. It isn’t.
If you’d like to hear about my left-leaning tendencies, we can discuss healthcare and other social programs, for example.
I don’t really think those tendencies mean much, honestly, because you constantly defend an administration and the side that is diametrically opposed to those things. Saying that you are in favor of left-leaning programs while actively conflating the most embarrassing elements of the left with the left as a whole and ignoring the dangerous elements of the mainstream right doesn’t make you left-leaning. It’s like what that interviewer Dave Rubin does (or did? He may just admit to being on the right by now). He’ll claim to be liberal, then dedicate all of his commentary to condemning the left as a whole over the actions of a select few, and then defend the most egregiously extreme elements of the right in order to make them seem more legitimate and sympathetic than they are. He’ll then ask with incredulity why everyone thinks he’s on the right when he repeatedly says that he’s on the left.
I’m agnostic, so of course I don’t agree with Peterson on religion being the foundation for morality. I don’t see that as a reason to ignore his arguments that are based on social science and his experience as a clinician. However, you seem to conflate theocracy with religious society. Western society is very religious and yet has relatively low crime. It’s theocracies that tend toward violent oppression.
It has nothing to do with disagreement. Peterson is wrong and his statements are contradicted by reality. And no, I don’t conflate theocracy with religious society. Evangelical Republicans by and large want the government to teach creationism in schools, teacher-led prayer, the ten commandments in courthouses, bans on gay marriage (which is purely based on religious thinking), and many other things. Western society, with the exception of East Asia and formerly communist states (I’m not sure if Eastern Europe counts as Western society), is the most secular society in the world. Even the United States is incredibly secular in certain areas, and, the more secular a US state, the less crime-ridden it is. That may not on its own discount his other commentary, but his dishonesty on this subject makes me doubt him on others. As for him as a social scientist, I’ve never heard anything impressive from him. Enforced monogamy and his “sort yourself out” nonsense is just that, nonsense. The idea that marriage and culturally enforced monogamy would stop insane murderous virgins is ridiculous and some of the most simple-minded “analysis” of the issue I’ve ever heard that honestly is even dumber than “toxic masculinity,” which I previously thought was the dumbest assessment of mass killings I’d ever encountered. As for him being a clinician, I’d say his association with Stefan Molyneux who is a cult-leader that encourages people to abandon their families if they disagree with them politically, and whose wife was reprimanded for clinical malpractice for doing the same thing, makes Peterson very questionable in regards to being a good clinician. I certainly wouldn’t trust him with any patients. But anyway, Peterson’s religious commentary is an example of right-wing dishonesty that is clear-cut.
I don’t defend the administration. I defend facts — as best as I can, anyway.
I’m going to need a translation here, because this is not computing with me.
I still maintain you’re conflating religious beliefs with government-mandated religion. “Secular” society doesn’t mean “not religious”. Despite climbing numbers of atheists in the overall population, western society is still overwhelmingly religious.
Not compared to the rest of the world and not when considering how people live their lives. The vast majority of Americans don’t live any kind of Christian lifestyle, even the ones that claim to care about it. Europe is incredibly secular. I have no idea how you’d think of most of the European as “overwhelmingly religious.” Unfortunately there’s a huge increase in the Islamic religion in Europe, but hopefully that will die down too as later generations secularize.
And good job trying to smear Peterson because of his “association[s]”. You should write for Vox or Vice. People’s views, and the world in general, aren’t as black and white and you’d like to believe; I can have a civil relationship with someone I don’t agree with and not believe or support the same things they do.
It’s a creepy association and I only used it to judge him as a “clinician”. Being associated with and agreeing with someone that is a genuine misogynist that thinks women are what spawn evil, a genuine racist that believes in white identity and race influencing intelligence, and a genuine cult-leader that demands that his followers and his wife’s patients abandon their families over political disagreements is all very disturbing for a so-called clinician and role model. Would you trust a surgeon if he were associated with and sympathetic to a witch doctor that uses his bare hands to pull tonsils out? I hope not. I don’t trust a “clinician” that associates with a manipulative cult-leader, but then again, I think Jordan Peterson resembles a cult-leader far more than he resembles a clinician, so we may just have to agree disagree on that Jordan Peterson asshole. While Vox generally sucks, as does Vice, I’d much rather write for them than the Daily Caller or Breitbart or Rebel Media or InfoWars. Another thing I doubt you recognize as the fact that it obviously is is that right wing “news” is far worse than left wing “news”.
Besides, claiming that everything sucks and anyone who disagrees with you can go fuck themselves (paraphrasing here) makes it difficult to take your arguments seriously.
At least I’m upfront and at least I make arguments. I’d rather deal with someone like me than someone who refuses to actually be upfront about what they believe. And I find it hard to take people seriously that don’t find this existence at least somewhat miserable. And I don’t hate everyone who disagrees with me. If I think their opinion is rationally formed then they don’t have to go fuck themselves.
Writing off huge swaths of people because they don’t hold the same values and don’t pass the purity test is why Democrats lost and are likely heading for more losses in November.
Democrats received far more votes than Republicans. Republicans win mainly because of gerrymandering and the electoral college. Trump won because he pandered to the worst in people, e.g. ignorance and hysteria. You care about facts so I’ll assume that you know all this. And I’m opposed to the Democrats too so I don’t care about them winning. I think that this country needs a purge of its oligarchy. As for huge swaths of people, huge swaths people are incredibly stupid and hold values that I find repugnant. Of course I write off what they want. They don’t know what’s best for them. What I want is better public education, welfare, and universal healthcare, among other things, all of which will help the uneducated Trump supporters of the poor red states far more than what the uneducated Trump supporters of the poor red states want. And the right-wing has its own purity tests too, which I know you’re just going to refuse to acknowledge so I won’t bother with going into that so I’ll move on. In general, you’re right that I don’t value opinions that I find irrational. Sorry, I don’t. You don’t either. I don’t like how people pretend that they’re open-minded to all ideas. I’m close-minded to ideas that I find objectionable. I’m close-minded to people whose arguments I find terrible and weak. We all are. I’m sure you’re close-minded to whatever crazy ideas the blue-haired college campus feminists have. Admit it, it makes life easier.