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Info: Star Wars - What is wrong and what is right... Goodbye Magenta — Page 2

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yeah I really can’t help feel had hideous it become. but looking at the VHS and then thinking about the Bluray.

I started to assume the VHS too over exposed high contrast. But yellow.

Blu-ray ghastly pink.

so i thought it would settle on a orangy / red / yellow.

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 (Edited)

Yes, on the original prints you can see that the frames are intentionally graded that way by looking at the frame edges.
I haven’t watched the Blu-Ray, so can’t comment.
Below is footage from a UK release print.
https://we.tl/PDf9j9SQ4r (42MB .mp4 file)

By all means, colour the film to the way you most enjoy it 😃

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 (Edited)

Thanks, first thing that struck me is how un-naturally over bright this is, I mean seriously I need to put sunglasses on.

The color is very good but there is no depth it looks flat as a pancake.

It looks like a series of really bright images. It does not have any step down like a levels curve it’s just all very bright as can be.

So if this was projected as I said it would drop in the mids then further in the shadow. But I seriously remember the yellow flashes not dreaming it up or anything it’s on the VHS 😃

Would you say it’s missing yellow?

The medium this has been prepared for is an old 35mm projector not a tv.

Should have called this thread hello yellow perhaps?

If I de-saturate that drop the brightness a bit up the contrast (Big jump) and add a bit yellow that is basically the VHS…

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Laserschwert said:

they could’ve just taken a promo photo from right next to the camera lens.

Were there two suns in the sky ok Tunisia that day ? 😉

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Ha!

Although I nick this off Neverargreat which I really love what he has done but it just feels a bit incomplete…it because it bring back so many memories I think it’s ok to guess but the tecnidisc is more right probably!

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Ronster said:

Thanks, first thing that struck me is how un-naturally over bright this is, I mean seriously I need to put sunglasses on.

The color is very good but there is no depth it looks flat as a pancake.

It looks like a series of really bright images. It does not have any step down like a levels curve it’s just all very bright as can be.

So if this was projected as I said it would drop in the mids then further in the shadow. But I seriously remember the yellow flashes not dreaming it up or anything it’s on the VHS 😃

Would you say it’s missing yellow?

The medium this has been prepared for is an old 35mm projector not a tv.

Should have called this thread hello yellow perhaps?

If I de-saturate that drop the brightness a bit up the contrast (Big jump) and add a bit yellow that is basically the VHS…

It might be worth a check you monitor if that clip looks un-naturally bright.
The levels on the scopes are correct, but that clip is at broadcast levels, so blacks start (correctly) at 128, not at zero, and it stays way under peak brightness levels - so it depends on your monitor calibration, and what software you are using to play it back.
Here is a test-pattern clip set to similar levels, check how the test patterns look. The second bar on the first pattern should be almost black for video level playback.
https://wetransfer.com/downloads/f22767e2f8d92ad1ac1a6de77f48f7df20180602010248/292ea0ca385130b7d0e0b724bf51707320180602010248/a95e73

Modern movies are way more contrasty than older movies, the current trend is to crush the blacks and create a very ‘punchy’ look. It often has way less actual detail and nuance than the older films, but people are now very used to a ‘punchy’ image.

Anyway, I’ll stop hijacking your thread, I just thought I’d drop in to show what the original film pallete was back in the day, and remind anyone doing any colour work to calibrate their screens and remember the difference between video levels and full range computer levels.

EDIT on re-reading your post, I see you are probably talking about that photo of the sunset looking overly bright, yes it is!

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 (Edited)

No my screen is fine… Let me explain. Honestly I find it interesting no hijacking.

This is the version that was on TV I do remember it vividly. I recorded this on Betamax and I just used to watch it over and over again and If I could not watch it on Betamax then I used to have an old maxwell 90 audio tape with the audio of the film on It I used to take about with a Battery powered tape deck.

So I guess what I am trying to say is this is the version I remember vividly but it was prepared a little different but it’s for want of a better word the same thing.

But the levels on the clips look like they are different. and not the right contrast, contrast much higher.

What I have been trying to do is re-create the look I remember off the TV, that version I remember. But I must admit The whole twin suns is an oddity and I am more and more sure there are 2 versions of the scene now.

Now I seen the next part where they are running this part looks fine… Seems like it has brightness issues, if you compare it to the bit where R2-D2 cross the corridor this part is perfect.

On dealing with that part in the Blu-ray was having to drop the high levels to near zero on one shot, it’s over accentuated the blu-ray or 2004. So it’s more of an inherrant problem for that part than a problem with your footage. Not your fault but it’s salvageable from what you have not in the Blu-ray though.

There is a version where the sparks around the Door are yellow and the flashes are yellow but it’s more de-saturated and this was what was on UK TV back in the day.

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Ronster said:

No my screen is fine… Let me explain. Honestly I find it interesting no hijacking.

This is the version that was on TV I do remember it vividly. I recorded this on Betamax and I just used to watch it over and over again and If I could not watch it on Betamax then I used to have an old maxwell 90 audio tape with the audio of the film on It I used to take about with a Battery powered tape deck.

So I guess what I am trying to say is this is the version I remember vividly but it was prepared a little different but it’s for want of a better word the same thing.

But the levels on the clips look like they are different. and not the right contrast, contrast much higher.

What I have been trying to do is re-create the look I remember off the TV, that version I remember. But I must admit The whole twin suns is an oddity and I am more and more sure there are 2 versions of the scene now.

Now I seen the next part where they are running this part looks fine… Seems like it has brightness issues, if you compare it to the bit where R2-D2 cross the corridor this part is perfect.

On dealing with that part in the Blu-ray was having to drop the high levels to near zero on one shot, it’s over accentuated the blu-ray or 2004. So it’s more of an inherrant problem for that part than a problem with your footage. Not your fault but it’s salvageable from what you have not in the Blu-ray though.

There is a version where the sparks around the Door are yellow and the flashes are yellow but it’s more de-saturated and this was what was on UK TV back in the day.

Ah, so a recording of the UK television broadcast that you recorded onto Betamax?
I have the U-Matic broadcast tapes here that the television stations used. I must get around to capturing them one day, it would be interesting to see what the colour is like on them.

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 (Edited)

poita said:

Ronster said:

No my screen is fine… Let me explain. Honestly I find it interesting no hijacking.

This is the version that was on TV I do remember it vividly. I recorded this on Betamax and I just used to watch it over and over again and If I could not watch it on Betamax then I used to have an old maxwell 90 audio tape with the audio of the film on It I used to take about with a Battery powered tape deck.

So I guess what I am trying to say is this is the version I remember vividly but it was prepared a little different but it’s for want of a better word the same thing.

But the levels on the clips look like they are different. and not the right contrast, contrast much higher.

What I have been trying to do is re-create the look I remember off the TV, that version I remember. But I must admit The whole twin suns is an oddity and I am more and more sure there are 2 versions of the scene now.

Now I seen the next part where they are running this part looks fine… Seems like it has brightness issues, if you compare it to the bit where R2-D2 cross the corridor this part is perfect.

On dealing with that part in the Blu-ray was having to drop the high levels to near zero on one shot, it’s over accentuated the blu-ray or 2004. So it’s more of an inherrant problem for that part than a problem with your footage. Not your fault but it’s salvageable from what you have not in the Blu-ray though.

There is a version where the sparks around the Door are yellow and the flashes are yellow but it’s more de-saturated and this was what was on UK TV back in the day.

Ah, so a recording of the UK television broadcast that you recorded onto Betamax?
I have the U-Matic broadcast tapes here that the television stations used. I must get around to capturing them one day, it would be interesting to see what the colour is like on them.

Basically it’s like the clip here on the VHS cap

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5qNMAM2dzg

But this is what I have been trying to describe, although it’s not the same and it’s not the right saturation it’s different for the flashes as you can see.

Basically what I am describing you will find something akin to what I am talking about on those tapes 😃

If those flashes were indeed purposefully done pink perhaps the UK TV uses a Raw take or un-touched.

You could probably lump the sunset shot in the same category Raw take also. But I don’t think this was on the original Betamax Broadcast I had I think it was later on this one surface similar to the release date on the Technidisc so it could be a 1990’s thing but the technicolor print has no purple on the suns on there own and the Blu-ray is the same no purple it looks like it wants to be the Raw take more than the purple version. So it must have been a new print they struck perhaps?

I remember both purple and red versions.

Manually matched Laserschwertz image closer to Technidisc.

IMPORTANT INFORMATION

frank678 said:

msycamore said:

Baronlando said:

frank678 said:

Looking at the comparison shots between the GOUT and Technidisc, the GOUT looks almost like its been bleached. Is this a combination of fade and DVNR or are there other factors involved?

I was wondering if that source was turning yellow and then correcting that ended up making it kind of blah?

My DVD transfers poor white balance also contributes to making it look more yellow than the actual LD really is. I actually think the elements used was turning pink/red at this point, the telecine operator may have tried to counter this with a bit of yellow and green.

Here are a couple of frames from the 1992 VHS

http://i.imgur.com/cAYrX.png

http://i.imgur.com/GQZFw.png

If you scroll back to You_Too’s Technidisc/Gout comparisons of these two shots the VHS frames seems to fall exactly inbetween the two. It hasnt got the yellow saturation of the Technidisc (ignoring what the capture distorted for one second) but it hasnt turned as pink/red as Gout.

This is how the 1992 VHS looks on a TV screen (taken with the camera on a mobile phone) followed by how it looks from video to computer to give you an idea of the transfer change.

http://i.imgur.com/QCYO1.png

http://i.imgur.com/I8Pyj.png

Yellow & pink / red flashes in trailer for 1993 Release.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Riipp7KLfO4

This is grade then for 1993 Master? Blue Gamma issues.

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It certainly wouldn’t have been a ‘raw’ take, but they may have gone back to the neg and made a new print from it for the purposes of a TV version to do the telecine from, and then the grade would have been different, and then the telecine process, as mentioned, would have had an on-the-fly grade done to it as well.
I’ll get the broadcast tapes captured and see how they look. It will be 4:3 of course!

Looking at that VHS cap, the magenta is still definitely there in the flashes and explosions, so it looks like the same film master to me, but it is clear that that version has had the magenta graded way down, looking at the extremely yellow skintones. So the flashes are still there, but the whole thing now has a very yellow push.
You can also see the ‘neutral balance’ that is typical of a telecine transfer, in the grey moon and very white ship, telecine operators tend to go for neutral colouring, even when the original might have had an intentional colour shift (a scene being blue-ish to convey cold for instance, they will often re-balance to be a neutral grey).

Also, memory for certain colours is terrible, even among trained colourists. In colour science there are a range of what is known as memory colours, it applies to things like sky, grass, fire and explosions.
We have a tendency as a species to remember these items as particular colour palletes, even if what we saw were quite different. e.g. We remember a STOP sign from a movie being blood red, even if it was actually quite orange, or even almost grey. We will clearly remember a sunset as being orangey-red, even if it wasn’t at the time (it may have been, but even if it wasn’t, we will remember it as being reddish orange).

If anyone wants to read up on it, and why we are so incredibly bad at remembering colours for certain items, I’ll pop a reference paper below.
It doesn’t mean anyone shouldn’t re-colour a film to how they remember it, but it is interesting that how they remember certain parts of it, skintones, sky, grass, coffee, taxis, water etc. will alomost certainly be way off from how it actually was in the film.

Our memory, and expectations make us see and remember colours that aren’t there, similar to the way that we ‘know’ that squares A& B are not the same colour, so our brain ensure we see them as different colours, even though sqaures A & B are absolutely identical (as shown in the image at the end of the post.

A less technical, but still interesting read: https://prolost.com/blog/2010/2/15/memory-colors.html

More technical reading.
https://www.medicaldaily.com/memory-color-shades-why-human-brain-struggles-remember-color-336396
http://psycnet.apa.org/record/2015-22398-001

Bodrogi, Peter & Tarczali, Tünde. (2001). Colour memory for various sky, skin, and plant colours: Effect of the image context. Color Research & Application. 26. 278 - 289. 10.1002/col.1034. In memory-matching techniques, the remembered colour might differ from the original colour even if the viewing situation is the same. Our aim was to point out whether these so-called memory shifts are significant in the everyday situations of viewing photos depicting sky, skin, or plant, or viewing standalone uniform colour patches of sky, skin, or plant colours. In many cases, significant memory shifts have been found. Considering only one type of object (sky or skin or plant), memory shifts turned out to be systematic in the sense that they were directed toward specific intervals of hue, chroma, and lightness. This tendency was more explicit for photos than for standalone colour patches. A method to quantify prototypical colours and their tolerance bounds was suggested. © 2001 John Wiley & Sons, Inc. Col Res Appl, 26, 278–289, 2001

Block out the little ‘bridge’ joining squares A & B with your finger, and your brain will go back to seeing them as different colours again. Our expectation of colour really affects our perception and memory of it.

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UnitéD2 said:

Laserschwert said:

they could’ve just taken a promo photo from right next to the camera lens.

Were there two suns in the sky ok Tunisia that day ? 😉

I’m not saying the photo wasn’t airbrushed for promotional purposes afterwards 😉

But if it is the actual shot of the film AFTER the optical effect of adding the second sun, why is it looking so different? Why is it this clean? Why don’t the prints of the movie even come close to this crazy high resolution?

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Yeah I hear what you saying about memory, and I know the print is correct or accurate but there is something I can’t quite put my finger on.

And my thoughts lie with perhaps if it is indeed a broadcast print then how would that handle with a CRT and how would that also change the information.

The Blu ray when it comes to R2-D2 panels they won’t go the same color as the technicolor print in fact there is one shot that even if I desaturate the whole image his front part round his eye is blue and everything else is black and white.

So yeah the Blu-ray has some serious issues…

I am just pondering these variations and It might only be small, but it is signifficant enough that it’s coming over like there is something not 100% correct but say 98% correct and that’s not to say I am calling it out as wrong but it does seem that there is evidence to support that is displayed at least a certain way and that perhaps should be taken into account.

I mean I’m not bonkers but I think action is very important part of the film and It should not be overlooked even though it is a small thing ultimately.

Basically they were yellow flashes until the DVD came out in 2004… And I still had a CRT so I am wondering if it has to do with this or that as you say it’s been prepared by design for CRT or the CRT simply misinterprets highlights… But since the new 2004 it has lost the luminence that it did have in my opinion.

Either way you can’t erase 20 years of something being a certain way even if it’s wrong…

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Ronster said:

Yeah I hear what you saying about memory, and I know the print is correct or accurate but there is something I can’t quite put my finger on.

And my thoughts lie with perhaps if it is indeed a broadcast print then how would that handle with a CRT and how would that also change the information.

The Blu ray when it comes to R2-D2 panels they won’t go the same color as the technicolor print in fact there is one shot that even if I desaturate the whole image his front part round his eye is blue and everything else is black and white.

So yeah the Blu-ray has some serious issues…

I am just pondering these variations and It might only be small, but it is signifficant enough that it’s coming over like there is something not 100% correct but say 98% correct and that’s not to say I am calling it out as wrong but it does seem that there is evidence to support that is displayed at least a certain way and that perhaps should be taken into account.

I mean I’m not bonkers but I think action is very important part of the film and It should not be overlooked even though it is a small thing ultimately.

Basically they were yellow flashes until the DVD came out in 2004… And I still had a CRT so I am wondering if it has to do with this or that as you say it’s been prepared by design for CRT or the CRT simply misinterprets highlights… But since the new 2004 it has lost the luminence that it did have in my opinion.

Either way you can’t erase 20 years of something being a certain way even if it’s wrong…

The Blu-ray is an absolute mess when it comes to colour, and they digitally altered specific parts, like some of R2’s panels by masking them out and changing the colour separately etc. so it is useless as far as a cohesive colour reference goes. Film scans, laserdisc and VHS will at least be consistent within their own medium, whereas the blu-ray has been tweaked within frames.

As for CRT, it is highly unlikely that your particular television(s) were ever calibrated, so who knows what colour bias they had, generally though a calibrated CRT TV will give accurate colour.
The explosions likely had a bit more yellow bias, telecine tends to lean towards the warmer end, and an operator again would likely decide that an explosion should be orangey-red and colour correct towards that end.

One thing CRT does have is an interesting luminance curve, and absolute blacks and a diffusion due to the spot size being larger than the smallest pixel element. This gives a diffuse glow to everything, which coupled with the blacks and scanlines, can give an impression of more colour depth, and a less flat image.
Watch a laserdisc on a CRT TV vs on a LCD screen and you will see what I mean. It is a different look, and the loss of luminence you are talking about might be to do with that.

Anyway, you are going down the path of creating a version as you remember it, whether that’s how it was or not is pretty irrelevant for that kind of project, colour it the way it looks best to you.

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Now that we have 4k77, with reel-level correction, isn’t this all moot?

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MrPib said:

Now that we have 4k77, with reel-level correction, isn’t this all moot?

Eh, yes and no. There’s variation between prints, and as an IB Technicolor print, it has a unique green shift of its own. Plus it seems like Ronster is trying to recreate a particular home video look he remembers, which is an entirely different issue from original print colors.

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MrPib said:

Now that we have 4k77, with reel-level correction, isn’t this all moot?

Not really. The 4K77 is great, but they didn’t sit and watch a projected print and then grade to match that print. The grade on 4K77 is somewhat arbitrary, but probably closer than anything else currently out there to how the film was.

As mentioned, this project is something different altogether. It is a recreation of a UK TV broadcast colouring.

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Although I am only doing the first 5 minutes of the film…Here is a kind of description of what I am trying to achieve.

A CRT will look different from a 35mm Projector because it’s a different type of light source but it’s still more accurate than say an Back lit LED lit LCD panel which is what I have and I am sure most other people have.

So the dance of Light is totally different, it will probably never look the same on modern Technology but one has to try and capture the essence or the spirit of the dance of light with a new type of Light.

So If you simply just re-create a prints color without thinking about that dance of light it will always look wrong no matter what color it is. I am no expert on such things but perhaps I can come up with some sort of model that emulates the light on LED TV to look more like or similar to a CRT within the footage because at least that is what I remember and if you like try to prepare it better for an LED backlit panel. But either way the film lost it’s luminence so I try to put that back.

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There has been a lot of work done, particularly in the retro gaming community to get an LCD TV to look like a CRT TV.
Check out some of the retro gaming forums on CRT emulation, there are some great AVISynth filters that really do recreate the look.

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 (Edited)

wow that sounds promising…

Render the whole 1996 Bonis Dvd would be interesting indeed under those effects.

But I will check it out, I tried to get to grips with avisynth but failed miserably probably need a front end gui for it. Virtual dub was putting squigly lines on video clips but apparently there is a new virtualdubmod out so i might try it through that.

The appealing part to my mind in those features is the shadow masking and phosphor effects not so much the scan lines but thanks really cool idea or experiment.

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that clip is actually in the first post and that is kind of what sets my barometer needle swinging over to confirming 'it is" yellow in reality and the home video versions were more correct for these flash frames extreme highlights luminosity and explosions.

But they are not as accurate for the prints overall color that I think is correct.

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Whereabouts is the yellow?
I see a lot of magenta in the flashes, but not much yellow there.
I think I’m misunderstanding what part you are referring to. Is it the flashes or something else?

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 (Edited)

when the door explodes…

The Raw Footage is yellow like home video and the walls are colored by this.

It’s way off in the Blu-ray but it’s still more pink /white in the print.

So i then sort of assumed that I could lump the flash frames in also as the same sort of color difference is present or it’s equal.

The Yellow is within the white part. And also when the door initially sparks this is also yellow in bluray very magenta in the print white / pink.

This is why I was also asking for frames or screen caps from technidisc version as it resembles the technicolor print.

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So here is an interesting idea and perhaps a sort of peek in to the future, take a bit off a deep breath hear me out…

Ok so looking at the problems something like star wars faces being that there are so many different versions and sound mixes alternate footage and so on, and also the problem of trying to experience the film with new technology but wanting to still have say a crt quality a 35mm quality a home video quality or even say a 16mm quality.

I think I may have come up with a possible way to combine everything into a single release with an option to even make your own custom version.

I was looking at a game engine called unity3D and this game engine can handle video luts and shaders and i would imagine any form of programmed branching being an engine and I would also assume subtitle text.

So the premise of this radical idea is to have a default version perhaps say original Theatrical Technicolor Star Wars. This would be ported into a the game engine from here after it has been programmed You could simply check a box and this would apply a number of Luts to make it 16mm Star wars Check another box and it would be Star Wars Special edition. You might want to mix and match the theatrical version and the special edition by checking boxes for individual scenes that you wish included or removed You could chose a preffered sound mix subtitles and extra emulation effects such as CRT mode 35mm Projection Mode or standard modern LED/LCD.

Anyway Video ported and run in game engines could be an interesting way things could move forward and I don’t personally relish the old Laserdisc Arcade Games like firefox or dragons lair they were fun but pretty awful, but this is simply a way of giving more options and a better framework to some of the more absolute classic releases for which perhaps there could be a reasonable budget to produce such a thing.

Good concept? Let me know what you think of this possibility of the scope to running video in a game engine such as Unity3D and the flexibility and of such an release and also how much fun you could have with it?

The best delivery metod for something like this is either downloadable or solid state cartridges not discs as it is a more complex. Like sngular app for a multiple version film.

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Sounds interesting.

I have a few questions.

How does the video look? Is it mapping it onto a 3D surface, or using some other method?

Can you lock frame rates?

How fast is the branching?

50GB equates to a fairly expensive cartridge.

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