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Religion — Page 113

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chyron8472 said:

…that’s a very long multi-faceted explanation.

Short version : “God is Love” (John 4:8 and John 4:16) 😉

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Technically, God isn’t torturing people in hell even if it is fire ans brimstone. In fact, the Bible’s not really clear on who created hell, but that opens up a whole other can of theological worms.

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chyron8472 said:

ZigZig said:

chyron8472 said:

…that’s a very long multi-faceted explanation.

Short version : “God is Love” (John 4:8 and John 4:16) 😉

Yes.

JEDIT: Also, John 3:17: “For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.”

Yes too. But my version is shorter!

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 (Edited)

ZigZig said:

chyron8472 said:

ZigZig said:

chyron8472 said:

…that’s a very long multi-faceted explanation.

Short version : “God is Love” (John 4:8 and John 4:16) 😉

Yes.

JEDIT: Also, John 3:17: “For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.”

Yes too. But my version is shorter!

Fixed. 😃

TV’s Frink said:

chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.

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chyron8472 said:

moviefreakedmind said:

chyron8472 said:

I’m not even going to get into this with you, mfm. You don’t really want to know my opinion. You want me to paint myself into a corner since you think my position is uninformed even by the sources of information I value most, and makes no sense from a rational standpoint.

I do want to know your opinion, but I’m obviously never going to hear it so I’ll move on.

I said: God is not torturing people.

So, you’re actually interested in my explaining how people are tormented without my also blaming God? You’re interested in my explaining holiness, sin, justice, and sacrifice? You want me to explain free will, and the relationship a loving father has with his children?

Well that’s basically my point. I don’t have a problem with the idea of a vengeful God that damns all those who don’t worship him. It’s pretty exciting and it’s neat, I just don’t like the contradiction. He’s a loving father that casts away the children that aren’t serving him. Christians actually hold God to a lower standard than they hold people. If a father in this world kicked his kids out of the house for not serving him or believing he’s all-knowing, that father would classified as heartless and awful. Not that I’m an expert on parenting or anything.

The Person in Question

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suspiciouscoffee said:

Technically, God isn’t torturing people in hell even if it is fire ans brimstone. In fact, the Bible’s not really clear on who created hell, but that opens up a whole other can of theological worms.

It is. All things were created through Christ. (John 1)

The Person in Question

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ZigZig said:

moviefreakedmind said:

ZigZig said:

moviefreakedmind said:

chyron8472 said:

moviefreakedmind said:

So, because I have an opinion of my own, you won’t share yours?

That’s not what I said. I said you will color my answer with assumptions you’re already making to prove your point. And you don’t seem to be asking with the intent of me saying in what way those assumptions are inaccuate.

“I don’t understand.” - Anakin Skywalker

Suffice it to say God is not torturing people.

So the Bible is lying?

Where does the Bible say that God is torturing people ?

Many places. Jesus says it all the time. It’s in Revelation.

Citation needed.

Is that a joke? It is common knowledge how the Bible describes hell. There’s also the Revelation bit where Jesus Christ has the privilege of a front-row seat for watching the torment of those that took the mark of the Beast.

https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Bible-Verses-About-Hell/

God apparently tortured Christ himself on the cross if you believe that whole thing about Christ taking God’s punishment for us.

Well, we obviously don’t have the same Bible. AFAIK, Christ IS God (you know, the whole Trinity stuff). So claiming that God tortured Jesus is just a lack of knowledge of dogma, unless you assume that God is masochistic and inflicts pain on Himself. 😃

I guess you could call him a masochist. I know the trinity is all one but the Bible definitely handles them like individual characters in the gospels.

And again, I’m not saying that I believe it. I’m just saying that we must not make the sacred texts say anything.

I’m not. I’m doing the opposite. I’m taking them in context for what they do say.

The Person in Question

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 (Edited)

moviefreakedmind said:

chyron8472 said:

moviefreakedmind said:

chyron8472 said:

I’m not even going to get into this with you, mfm. You don’t really want to know my opinion. You want me to paint myself into a corner since you think my position is uninformed even by the sources of information I value most, and makes no sense from a rational standpoint.

I do want to know your opinion, but I’m obviously never going to hear it so I’ll move on.

I said: God is not torturing people.

So, you’re actually interested in my explaining how people are tormented without my also blaming God? You’re interested in my explaining holiness, sin, justice, and sacrifice? You want me to explain free will, and the relationship a loving father has with his children?

Well that’s basically my point. […] He’s a loving father that casts away the children that aren’t serving him. Christians actually hold God to a lower standard than they hold people. If a father in this world kicked his kids out of the house for not serving him or believing he’s all-knowing, that father would classified as heartless and awful.

Again, as I said, you color my answer with assumptions you’ve already made by saying he “casts away the children that aren’t serving him”. I didn’t say that, and the Bible doesn’t say that. You’re simplifying a concept, by overlooking certain aspects about it, into something that isn’t a true representation of itself. Basically you’ve constructed a strawman.

TV’s Frink said:

chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.

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 (Edited)

moviefreakedmind said:

suspiciouscoffee said:

Technically, God isn’t torturing people in hell even if it is fire ans brimstone. In fact, the Bible’s not really clear on who created hell, but that opens up a whole other can of theological worms.

It is. All things were created through Christ. (John 1)

Well, we definitely don’t have the same Bible. Your quote (“All things were created through Christ”) is not written in John:1. Not written.

John:1:1-6 said:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made. In Him was life, and that life was the light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcomea it.

It is clear that the Word IS NOT Christ at the beginning, but became Christ later (see John:1,14 : “The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us”)

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 (Edited)

moviefreakedmind said:

ZigZig said:

moviefreakedmind said:

ZigZig said:

moviefreakedmind said:

chyron8472 said:

moviefreakedmind said:

So, because I have an opinion of my own, you won’t share yours?

That’s not what I said. I said you will color my answer with assumptions you’re already making to prove your point. And you don’t seem to be asking with the intent of me saying in what way those assumptions are inaccuate.

“I don’t understand.” - Anakin Skywalker

Suffice it to say God is not torturing people.

So the Bible is lying?

Where does the Bible say that God is torturing people ?

Many places. Jesus says it all the time. It’s in Revelation.

Citation needed.

Is that a joke? It is common knowledge how the Bible describes hell. There’s also the Revelation bit where Jesus Christ has the privilege of a front-row seat for watching the torment of those that took the mark of the Beast.

https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Bible-Verses-About-Hell/

OK, some quotes about Hell. But where is it written that God tortures people ? Again : citation needed.

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BTW, in your link, I found this : “Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

So no eternal punishment, but simply death…

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chyron8472 said:

moviefreakedmind said:

chyron8472 said:

moviefreakedmind said:

chyron8472 said:

I’m not even going to get into this with you, mfm. You don’t really want to know my opinion. You want me to paint myself into a corner since you think my position is uninformed even by the sources of information I value most, and makes no sense from a rational standpoint.

I do want to know your opinion, but I’m obviously never going to hear it so I’ll move on.

I said: God is not torturing people.

So, you’re actually interested in my explaining how people are tormented without my also blaming God? You’re interested in my explaining holiness, sin, justice, and sacrifice? You want me to explain free will, and the relationship a loving father has with his children?

Well that’s basically my point. […] He’s a loving father that casts away the children that aren’t serving him. Christians actually hold God to a lower standard than they hold people. If a father in this world kicked his kids out of the house for not serving him or believing he’s all-knowing, that father would classified as heartless and awful.

Again, as I said, you color my answer with assumptions you’ve already made by saying he “casts away the children that aren’t serving him”. I didn’t say that, and the Bible doesn’t say that. You’re simplifying a concept, by overlooking certain aspects about it, into something that isn’t a true representation of itself. Basically you’ve constructed a strawman.

I have not constructed a strawman. It is absolutely true that the Bible says that those who don’t acknowledge God as their savior apart from anything else then he casts them away. Perhaps serve isn’t the exact correct word, but I’m not erecting a strawman. I’m just going to leave this thread assuming that you can’t answer my questions because that’s all I can assume at this point.

The Person in Question

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ZigZig said:

moviefreakedmind said:

ZigZig said:

moviefreakedmind said:

ZigZig said:

moviefreakedmind said:

chyron8472 said:

moviefreakedmind said:

So, because I have an opinion of my own, you won’t share yours?

That’s not what I said. I said you will color my answer with assumptions you’re already making to prove your point. And you don’t seem to be asking with the intent of me saying in what way those assumptions are inaccuate.

“I don’t understand.” - Anakin Skywalker

Suffice it to say God is not torturing people.

So the Bible is lying?

Where does the Bible say that God is torturing people ?

Many places. Jesus says it all the time. It’s in Revelation.

Citation needed.

Is that a joke? It is common knowledge how the Bible describes hell. There’s also the Revelation bit where Jesus Christ has the privilege of a front-row seat for watching the torment of those that took the mark of the Beast.

https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Bible-Verses-About-Hell/

OK, some quotes about Hell. But where is it written that God tortures people ? Again : citation needed.

Tormenting people and burning them alive doesn’t count as cruel and unusual punishment. If you’re looking the Bible verse that literally says “God likes to torture people,” then you’re not going to find it but we all know what the Bible describes hell as. I don’t see the use in pretending that it’s not there.

The Person in Question

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moviefreakedmind said:

chyron8472 said:

moviefreakedmind said:

chyron8472 said:

moviefreakedmind said:

chyron8472 said:

I’m not even going to get into this with you, mfm. You don’t really want to know my opinion. You want me to paint myself into a corner since you think my position is uninformed even by the sources of information I value most, and makes no sense from a rational standpoint.

I do want to know your opinion, but I’m obviously never going to hear it so I’ll move on.

I said: God is not torturing people.

So, you’re actually interested in my explaining how people are tormented without my also blaming God? You’re interested in my explaining holiness, sin, justice, and sacrifice? You want me to explain free will, and the relationship a loving father has with his children?

Well that’s basically my point. […] He’s a loving father that casts away the children that aren’t serving him. Christians actually hold God to a lower standard than they hold people. If a father in this world kicked his kids out of the house for not serving him or believing he’s all-knowing, that father would classified as heartless and awful.

Again, as I said, you color my answer with assumptions you’ve already made by saying he “casts away the children that aren’t serving him”. I didn’t say that, and the Bible doesn’t say that. You’re simplifying a concept, by overlooking certain aspects about it, into something that isn’t a true representation of itself. Basically you’ve constructed a strawman.

I’m just going to leave this thread assuming that you can’t answer my questions because that’s all I can assume at this point.

It is true that I can not answer your questions in a way that lets you deliberately prove the point you want to make.

TV’s Frink said:

chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.

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 (Edited)

moviefreakedmind said:

[ZigZig: Where does the Bible say that God is torturing people ?]

Many places. Jesus says it all the time. It’s in Revelation.

moviefreakedmind said:

If you’re looking the Bible verse that literally says “God likes to torture people,” then you’re not going to find it

OK, so the Bible say that God is torturing people in many places, but we’ll not find a single verse that literally says that. All this is perfectly coherent.

moviefreakedmind said:

we all know what the Bible describes hell as.

No we don’t. Well I don’t. Again : citation needed, where is it written that God tortures people?
It is your interpretation, and it’s respectable, but you really have to stop saying that things are clearly written when they are not.
JEDIT: And I understand that Chyron doesn’t want/need to answer, since he does not have the same interpretation of the Gospels as yours.

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ZigZig said:

moviefreakedmind said:

[ZigZig: Where does the Bible say that God is torturing people ?]

Many places. Jesus says it all the time. It’s in Revelation.

moviefreakedmind said:

If you’re looking the Bible verse that literally says “God likes to torture people,” then you’re not going to find it

OK, so the Bible say that God is torturing people in many places, but we’ll not find a single verse that literally says that. All this is perfectly coherent.

It is coherent. The Bible says God burns people and torments them and casts them to a place where the worm doesn’t die and the fire’s never quenched. That is torture. You need it spelled out for you even more clearly, I guess. Theocrats in American have said, “The constitution doesn’t say ‘separation of church and state’” and ignore the fact that it does say that the government can make no law respecting an establishment of religion even though the statement ‘separation of church and state’ doesn’t appear word for word. That’s the game you’re playing now.

moviefreakedmind said:

we all know what the Bible describes hell as.

No we don’t. Well I don’t.

Well, anyone who’s read the Bible does.

The Person in Question

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When I was little my dad told me hell switched between being fire and ice so you never got used to the extreme heat or cold.

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It’s not a coincidence that 99% of people think of hell as a torturous hellhole. It’s because the Bible describes it as such.

The Person in Question

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moviefreakedmind said:

ZigZig said:

moviefreakedmind said:

[ZigZig: Where does the Bible say that God is torturing people ?]

Many places. Jesus says it all the time. It’s in Revelation.

moviefreakedmind said:

If you’re looking the Bible verse that literally says “God likes to torture people,” then you’re not going to find it

OK, so the Bible say that God is torturing people in many places, but we’ll not find a single verse that literally says that. All this is perfectly coherent.

It is coherent. The Bible says God burns people.

Citation needed. Again. I’m not playing a game, you are. And you’ll continue to play without me.

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LOL!

Revelation 14:10-11 "he too will drink the wine of God’s anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever. Day and night there will be no rest for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

I’m done after this. I can’t handle denial.

The Person in Question

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In his defense nothing about the book of revelation is even supposed to be taken literal, it’s more about Rome than eternity.

But there are certainly other examples.

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moviefreakedmind said:

It’s not a coincidence that 99% of people think of hell as a torturous hellhole.

Source? Are you 99% of people by yourself?
AFAIK, pope Francis said the opposite a month ago. Or is he playing a game too?

And even if Hell is a place a torture, that doesn’t that God personaly tortures people.