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Religion — Page 94

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Possessed said:

Don’t be willfully ignorant.

Not an answer. Willful ignorance may be evidenced by not understanding what chyron and CatBus posted.

The blue elephant in the room.

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Fine. I “respectfully hold the opinion” that presenting your beliefs and opinions as absolute truth and fact is problematic. Feel better?

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chyron8472 said:

Seriously though, for me, for one to say that I ought to be skeptical and realistically more than zero percent uncertain of the existence of God and whether He cares, it is akin to saying I should treat my relationship with my wife as though we barely even met. My relationship has long since evolved past that point, and I’m longing to learn more and grow, and I want to be closer.

I don’t understand this comparison at all.

The Person in Question

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Possessed said:

Fine. I “respectfully hold the opinion” that presenting your beliefs and opinions as absolute truth and fact is problematic. Feel better?

😃

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Possessed said:

Fine. I “respectfully hold the opinion” that presenting your beliefs and opinions as absolute truth and fact is problematic. Feel better?

I feel…nothing. Must be what (real) truth feels like. The nature of truth has been debated for eons. Even Obi Wan refers “truths” in a way suggesting “truth” not to be entirely objective. Zig’s post is also on that vein. Depending on your particular persuasion you may shun the concept altogether. I agree with CatBus that argument is all very tedious. In context here, there should be no doubt what chyron means when he speaks of truth.

The blue elephant in the room.

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CatBus said:

suspiciouscoffee said:

Chyron, your presupposition, and refusal to elaborate on said presupposition, that God’s existence is completely evident and unquestionable can be frustrating. Your strong faith is quite admirable, but your behavior in this thread today is baffling.

IMO the danger of any mixed-company religious conversation is failure to couch terms appropriately, and that goes double for text-only formats. This whole “true for me” and “true for you” is ultimately sorta bullshit, but useful bullshit. Chyron knows there’s a God. He’s 100% certain of this. I know there aren’t any gods. I’m 100% certain of this as well. You don’t have to wade very far into a conversation with this level of un-couched honesty before you reach the obvious conclusion that one of us is wrong.

But that’s not a useful conclusion to any religious discussion. It neither helps nor informs anyone. Unless you’re in the conversion racket, I suppose, which I’m certainly not. So instead of saying “I know”, people say “I believe”, which ratchets down the conflict a bit. But really, for some people it’s the same damn thing. Chyron and me, we both know, we’re both certain. But to facilitate a more fruitful conversation, it’s “belief”, which is suitably equivocal, albeit sometimes less accurate.

Now sure, many/most have room for real doubt, and I’m not trying to downplay that. I think doubt is far more theologically interesting than certainty on the faith end of the spectrum (whereas hardly anything is theologically interesting about my end). I think the story of Doubting Thomas illustrates this quite well, how lack of certainty/evidence is precisely what gives value to faith. I’m not exactly sure how to approach absolute religious certainty in that respect, but I’ll keep reading and listening.

At risk of re-starting the same shitstorm I started last time, this is nevertheless topical to the “truth” discussion.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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It is funny how only one of you can be right and yet somehow you’re both wrong. :p

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Look, I believe in God. *I* think Gods existence is real. But I don’t presume to say it’s a fact, or the objective truth, because there’s no way to prove definitively either way. I believe in God, but talking about my belief like it is an undeniable fact would be silly.

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TV’s Frink said:

It is funny how only one of you can be right and yet somehow you’re both wrong. :p

You just wait. One day I’ll be the customer, and then you’ll change your tune!

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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Mrebo said:

Possessed said:

Fine. I “respectfully hold the opinion” that presenting your beliefs and opinions as absolute truth and fact is problematic. Feel better?

Zig’s post is also on that vein.

Is it?

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I have a problem with the notion that religious ideologies deserve respect. No one has any extra respect for my theories on the Kennedy assassination, and they shouldn’t be expected to by the way, but when it comes to my religious views, everyone is suddenly expected to respect my beliefs. I don’t see people’s personally held beliefs as inherently worthy of respect. I don’t think that the Pope is above being raked over the coals for his role in the child rape coverups just because he’s sacred to Catholics. I don’t think the Islamic religion and the so-called “Prophet” Muhammad are worthy of any level respect just because they’re sacred to Muslims. I guess that makes me a bigot 😉

The Person in Question

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The only flaw in that is the Kennedy assassination doesn’t mean as much to you as God does to religious people.

Or at least I hope that’s the case.

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TV’s Frink said:

The only flaw in that is the Kennedy assassination doesn’t mean as much to you as God does to religious people.

Or at least I hope that’s the case.

If it did would you demand my opinions be respected and accommodated?

The Person in Question

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Stop making me defend Religion. I don’t like doing it, but you’re making a very silly comparison.

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I don’t know I’ve got some pretty strong feelings about spaghetti and lately I’ve been starting to feel like they need to be respected

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Possessed said:

I don’t know I’ve got some pretty strong feelings about spaghetti and lately I’ve been starting to feel like they need to be respected

Each individual noodle?

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I’m not even sure you can prove that noodles exist.

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TV’s Frink said:

Stop making me defend Religion. I don’t like doing it, but you’re making a very silly comparison.

It isn’t that silly. Some people take their love of the Star Wars prequels very seriously and treat it almost like a religion. I find religion to often be extremely offensive, but I’m expected to treat it with kid gloves.

The Person in Question

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 (Edited)

Possessed said:

I don’t know I’ve got some pretty strong feelings about spaghetti and lately I’ve been starting to feel like they need to be respected

I agree.

TV’s Frink said:

I’m not even sure you can prove that noodles exist.

As a Pastafarian, I deserve more respect when Frink talks about spaghetti.

The Flying Spaghetti Monster IS the real God. That is the truth, I have plenty of evidences. I won’t say it is a fact, but I am 100% sure and other opinions are obviously weaker than my 100% sure truth full of evidences.

I’m not trying to convince you, I’m just saying that you are wrong.

So please, in the name of all adepts of Pastafarianism, stop mocking my Religion.

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ZigZig said:

chyron8472 said:

To some degree, I can not answer some of those follow-up questions in a meaningful way, because
(…)
2) certain answers that readily come to me assume certain truths that people call into question. And I can not convince people of those truths.
(…)

True. Though, some people do present themselves as though their opinion is the correct one.
…and that probably also includes me.

When you use words like “truths” to describe your beliefs, is it difficult not to think that you present your opinion as the correct one.

It’d be a pretty odd belief if that wasn’t the case tho. I mean believing things are true is sort of why we believe in them 😉

K. Let’s have this ride.