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What's Actually in the Movies? (for a GURPS RPG) — Page 3

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Tyrphanax said:

This is a cool thread. I’ve always considered doing what you’ve done, so it’s neat to see how you’re going about it. I like the purist approach, I honestly hadn’t thought of that. Very interesting!

I have a couple of reasons for taking this tack, one because I wanted to stick as close to GURPS as possible without having to create custom rules for everything (which would be necessary if I went with the Expanded Universe or even the Pre/Sequel/Canon Novel universe); the other is that I wanted a chance to go in directions with the technology and society that would be genuinely novel to people familiar with the product line of ‘Star Wars’ and perhaps closer to the source material (old sci-fi and Flash Gordon type stuff) than the self-consciously Star Wars products were.

I do something similar with Star Trek and the Prime Directive RPG, taking the original series and animated series as the gospel (or at least a reasonably accurate report someone gave on actual events), while ignoring all the later shows and most of the movies/books/technical manuals. The result is something that’s a lot different from the Trek Expanded Universe and any of the RPG-verses, but also recognizably a version of the Original Series world.

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If only the EU authors could write stories set in OT-only parallel universes…

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GZK8000 said:

If only the EU authors could write stories set in OT-only parallel universes…

Why have that when you can have a single, “cohesive” universe which includes all the crap you don’t like?

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 (Edited)

GZK8000 said:

If only the EU authors could write stories set in OT-only parallel universes…

Well, you can always do it yourself. The main problem is that you can’t sell it.
However: since most places/things/people are never named or explained in the OT you could easily write and sell books about the OT with the serial numbers filed off - use the script names like ‘Laser Sword’, change a couple of terms (Jedi, the Force) and don’t refer to named characters (or change their names) and there’s basically nothing in Star Wars you can’t use/base your stories off of. Most of it is pretty generic Flash Gordon/Knights and Princesses fiction, so there’s essentially no way they can prove you’re copying them if you don’t use specific trademarked names.

Darth Vader is halfway a Doctor Doom knockoff, the ‘Empire’ is the most generic and un-trademarkable word for a government in history, ‘Senate’ and ‘Republic’ likewise. There’s not a whole lot original in Star Wars, and if you ignore the toys/EU/Pre/Sequels there’s even less that can possibly be nailed down as IP infringement. In fact I am sure there are some published sci-fi novels that are ‘Star Wars with Serial Numbers Filed Off, Author’s Personal Canon Edition’.

The Stellar Strife, where the remnants of a feudal republic attempt to revive the vision of a free society against the galaxy spanning empire that has replaced them and ignite a civil war.

Rebels can’t be TM’d, you can say ‘alliance of rebels’ or ‘insurrection movement’ instead of Rebel Alliance and there’s no way to prove you’re using Star Wars as a basis, etc.

Star Wars is much easier than Star Trek to create analogues of, because almost all the terms, storylines and characters in it are super-generic stuff that’s been recycled a million times. In fact (while I do like Star Wars) it’s more of an example of an especially well done knock off of Flash Gordon and medieval romances than anything particularly innovative. It’s just that most people know Star Wars much better than the source material it cribs from. In terms of unique, original, innovative and plain weird stories there is a lot of stuff published in the 20s-40s as sci-fi and sword & planet fiction that’s quite a bit less generic and predictable than Star Wars as a story line or terminological mine. In fact part of the reason Star Wars probably does so well is because its terms, plots and memes are super generic and thus easy for people to identify with. Cordwainer Smith requires quite a bit more mental effort and obscurantist tastes than ‘old knight teaches Chosen One how to defeat the Evil Wizard, Rescue the Princess and fight the Black Knight with the help of a Charming Rogue.’

And what could possibly be more generic a religious/magical term than ‘The Force’, or (for the black magic version) ‘the Dark Side’? It sounds like someone took a real science fiction story and replaced every single specific name for institutions, technology, and places and replaced it with the most generic possible term for that general class of things. Most real religious orders, magical systems, fighting aristocracies, etc. have very specific names and pretty detailed histories and beliefs, throw out all the specifics like that and you end up with something very much like Star Wars.

Instead of the Hospitaller warrior monks being named Supremus Ordo Militaris Hospitalis Sancti Ioannis Hierosolymitani Rhodius et Melitensis they’re just called ‘The Knights’.

In fact this happens in real life, so you can also infer that the ‘Empire’ and ‘the Knights’ and ‘the Rebel Alliance’ actually do have specific names reflecting their origin and orientation, but are simply called these things as shorthand (especially by their enemies and outsiders). So if you actually invent specific names, motives and origins for these institutions and practices you have gone further than Lucas (or most of the EU) in actually making them realistic/versimilitudinous.

The biggest downside is that you can’t automatically sell things to kids and nerds by slapping the STAR WARS brand on it, but if your objective were to write good Star Wars stories instead of making money for Disney there’s basically nothing stopping you.

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I do agree that Star Wars has always been rather generic in its concepts, ideas and world building (Hamill said Lucas once confessed him he took the idea of the Force from hundreds of pulp fiction stories), and I do think that’s partially the reason why the post-RotJ films doesn’t work for me: they have tried to build an entire franchise (with some takes on morality and politics and with more complex stories) from a set of movies that were about an evil masked guy being evil, the good guy being an uncorruptable good guy, and the hot chick being a hot chick, the plot being a mere excuse to watch exciting adventures. You’re probably aware of this, but there was a 1979 paper about Star Wars (I haven’t read it yet, though) where the authors basically said the massive success of the first movie was the result of the lack of any kind of political message or philosophy there: everyone could make a different reading of the movie and insert their own narrative into the movie, which is why many spiritual people interpreted the Jedi religion in Star Wars as being based on their own religions and mythologies. Empire certainly was more scifi-ish than the first movie, so naturally many people uninterested in science fiction never bothered to watch Jedi.

I don’t particulary think the generic nature of the OT is a problem for marketing, because for many 1977 and 1983 people Star Wars meant lazer swords and mind control and a masked dude and Rebels versus Imperials (even the ST has taken a more OT-like line than the boring PT): it’s no surprise the pre-PT videogames took that route instead of being based on the oEU, because after all even in extremely limited systems like DOS or the early 3D consoles you can make space simulators or 2D platforms. In a world where the concept of parallel universes would be part of Star Wars, you could have sub-franchises, each one appealing to fans of every parallel universe, just like now we have PT-era stories that are marketed as part of the “Clone Wars”.

Perhaps the franchise could have taken the original path Lucas had in mind in the last weeks of Star Wars’s production: that every movie could have been unconnected from the rest, set in different eras, with only some aspects that would define them as “Star Warsy” (perhaps the presence of the Empire or the Jedi or “lazer swords”, but that’s it). Sadly, Vader’s massive retcon in Empire, as fantastic as a twist and climax for that movie, set the movies in the Trilogy/Saga direction. I still don’t understand why the main franchise “needs” to be about the Skywalkers (the ST may have a non-Skywalker protagonist but it has Luke and Ben as the two core characters of VIII and IX).

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GZK8000 said:

I do agree that Star Wars has always been rather generic in its concepts, ideas and world building (Hamill said Lucas once confessed him he took the idea of the Force from hundreds of pulp fiction stories)

Oh yeah, just look at ‘new type’ psi types, Albert Bester’s The Demolished Man, Lucas combined the psi fi and classical magic, which is what’s most unique about the Force is it’s both sorcery and psi.

and I do think that’s partially the reason why the post-RotJ films doesn’t work for me: they have tried to build an entire franchise (with some takes on morality and politics and with more complex stories) from a set of movies that were about an evil masked guy being evil, the good guy being an uncorruptable good guy, and the hot chick being a hot chick, the plot being a mere excuse to watch exciting adventures.

While I like a lot of Star Trek up to DS9 it’s the same sort of thing, it went from Horatio Hornblower IN SPAAACE using random sci fi authors to self conscious Star Trek shows with staff writers. The more you write ‘in the style of’ the less variety and originality you have.

You’re probably aware of this, but there was a 1979 paper about Star Wars (I haven’t read it yet, though) where the authors basically said the massive success of the first movie was the result of the lack of any kind of political message or philosophy there: everyone could make a different reading of the movie and insert their own narrative into the movie

This is how most popular mythology works, by necessity stories leave things out which is filled consciously or subconsciously by the audience. That’s also why you get people demonizing it, ie Harry Potter is Satanic and Batman is a fascist. People respond to the symbols and impose a meaning based on how those symbols resonate with them.

Empire certainly was more scifi-ish than the first movie,

Which is part of the reason it’s my favorite by far, the Empire is a credible menace with massive resources instead of the Apple Dumpling Gang.

even in extremely limited systems like DOS or the early 3D consoles you can make space simulators or 2D platforms.
X-Wing v. TIE Fighter is one of my favorite fighter sims, I love how all the ships have inertia except for the TIE, which makes them impossibly agile.

in a world where the concept of parallel universes would be part of Star Wars, you could have sub-franchises, each one appealing to fans of every parallel universe

One nice thing about Star Trek is that alternate timelines are Canon!

Perhaps the franchise could have taken the original path Lucas had in mind in the last weeks of Star Wars’s production: that every movie could have been unconnected from the rest, set in different eras, with only some aspects that would define them as “Star Warsy” (perhaps the presence of the Empire or the Jedi or “lazer swords”, but that’s it).

Conan pulps are a lot like that.

Sadly, Vader’s massive retcon in Empire, as fantastic as a twist and climax for that movie, set the movies in the Trilogy/Saga direction. I still don’t understand why the main franchise “needs” to be about the Skywalkers

The same thing happens in most series fiction, for marketing, simplicity and authorial one upping reasons eventually every thread is tied into a knot with the original cast at its center. In Star Trek, Star Wars and comic books it’s patently absurd how the fate of galaxies always seems to come down to the same 12 guys.

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Dark Side named - There is no “light side” of the Force, just the Force and the Dark Side.

By mere deduction you can conclude that there is a Light Side.

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It’s called The Good Side in ROTJ.

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Mocata said:

It’s called The Good Side in ROTJ.

Alternatively, the You Don’t Help Build Death Stars Side.

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These things were also not in the movie.