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So why Define STAR WARS as OT OR PT? — Page 3

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Ok, gonna start by saying i know some of these points have been made, and sorry for repeating but ill try to keep it concise (been some long posts here, and im guilty of it myself

I think Tony is write, Lucas wants to bring Star Wars together as a whole, and honestly there in lies the problem (or part of it anyway) He does all these little things just to make bridges between the two. Yeah, the 'foreshowding' of greedo's untimely demise gave me a chuckle when i saw the scene, but its totally fake, its put in specifically just for that. There is no reason to have greedo in any scene except the one where he gets fried.

Also, greedo being a terrible shot does nothing to make han look better, in fact it could even make him look worse, because he almost got killed by someone that is a pretty shitty bounty hunter (cant aim worth shit) Before, he was so much better than greedo that he had the one up on greedo, plus, he still goes for his gun way early, so he was expecting the possibility of needing it, so why when that time came did it take so long for him to respond that greedo got a shot off even though Han knew it was coming.

Showing Jabba does take away the suprise because the first time we see him is in ROTJ, Jabba wasnt needed in TPM as MagFan showed in his edit. its another one of those forced bridges imho. And as a Film student, you should realize that just because he intended it to be in the film doesnt mean it wasnt cut for good reason. Directors film tons of scenes that they think they want and that end up on the cutting room floor. The scene was cut for good reason, and wasnt even filmed with the design of Jabba as a 'slug' in mind. More reason to not include it because Han is now stepping all over (one of) the most ruthless ganster(s) in the universe. And yes he is bad ass, Does a mob boss go out and do their own hits, or do they have Boba Fetts to do that for them? Jabba is one evil SOB, He's not even afraid of Jedi, but if you dont think he's a bad ass feel free to slap him in the face and see what happens to you. And just cause he runs tatooine doesnt mean he goes to every public event.

Hayden as the ghost: your explanation is flawed, sorry but it is. he was redeemed at the end of ROTJ and was once again a Jedi. So I guess he rose from the dead since he had died physically and spiritually in ROTS. Maybe they should put both ghosts shown, because now he's two people (actually 3, pre sith jedi, sith lord, post sith jedi)

Im sorry that me enjoying the Star Wars movies as I like to, and being a fan the way i want to (be that liking all the movies as is, liking them but having gripes with them) apparently doesnt make me a STAR WARS fan. Do you like every book with the Star Wars name on it? Do you love the Holiday Special. Do you think all the officially licensed Star Wars merchandise is great? if not i guess you're not a STAR WARS fan because you dont like everything Star Wars, your just a Star Wars movie fan.

And yes, changing the movies, without at least making the original versions available (Heck, Lucas says those versions no longer exists which is even worse) is a slap in the face to anyone who fell in love with the OT. It lucas telling you what you fell in love with was incomplete, and that it wasnt good enough. There is no need to update the movies for newer generations. If the movie is truely a classic it will stand that test of time without being updated.

-Darth Simon

ps. Gaffer, I noticed
Why Anakin really turned to the dark side:
"Anakin, You're father I am" - Yoda
"No. No. That's not true! That's impossible!" - Anakin

0100111001101001011011100110101001100001

*touchy people disclaimer*
some or all of the above comments are partially exaggerated to convey a point, none of the comments are meant as personal attacks on anyone mentioned or reference in the above post
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(John Williams is the best music composer next to Howard Shore)


Sir, you are full of balony. John Williams is the man. Forget Howard!

Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side

Emperor Jar-Jar
“Back when we made Star Wars, we just couldn’t make Palpatine as evil as we intended. Now, thanks to the miracles of technology, it is finally possible. Finally, I’ve created the movies that I originally imagined.” -George Lucas on the 2007 Extra Extra Special HD-DVD Edition

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Once again, I'm with Darth Simon. Heh, and I'm glad someone noticed!

And to top off what he said about scenes being cut from films, sometimes the most creative ideas come from not being able to do everything a director wants to do. I am a huge Back to the Future fan as well (which will, thankfully, never have a director's cut/special edition), and that movie originally ended with Doc and Marty having to go to a nuclear test site in Nevada to have a nuclear bomb power the time machine to get back to 1985. But budget forced them to shoot that scene on the back lot. After much thinking, Zemeckis and Gale finally came up with the now-legendary clock tower/lightning bolt sequence that they admit was much better than what the nuclear test site idea could have been. But I have a feeling that if George had made that movie, after he had become successful, he would have gone back in and redone it that way because he didn't have the time, money, or technology to make it that way back then. Digital technology and complete control over movies is good for directors because it allows their imagination to come through unaltered. But at the same time, it's sad because it doesn't allow them to come up with creative solutions to problems anymore, which may turn out better than if they hadn't had any inhibitions.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Originally posted by: Tony
..wouldnt you like Episodes 3, 4, and 5 to fit in perfectly?

Those movies were made decades before the new ones. It's impossible for them not to fit in perfectly - they were first. It should be up to the writer to make the new ones "fit in". And spare me the whole "it was all written in 1975 as a complete story" diatribe. Those of us that were there, know better.

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Originally posted by: Tony
STAR WARS will always be STAR WARS as long as the story does not change.

That's already happened. Significantly.
Nothing was left to chance - there's no unseen characters, there's no luck, there's no twist of fate for anyone, no fortunate or unfortunate turn of events, no characters met along the way - no unrelated characters or events. He's taken a giant, space story from our deepest and wildest imaginations and repackaged it for the current generation of short-attention-span children and 20-somethings that are no longer able to use their imaginations to enrich a story in their minds or do any thinking on their own. They have to have every answer given to them - every detail spelled out for them. He's made the story very small and narrow, every detail neatly sewn up.

He's taken a great outer space science fiction story and turned it into a kids bedtime story where everyone lives happily ever after. It's The Wizard Of Oz for today's generation….


DOROTHY
But you couldn't have been, could you?

AUNT EM
Oh, we dream lots of silly things when we --

DOROTHY
No, Aunt Em -- this was a real, truly live
place. And I remember that some of it
wasn't very nice....

DOROTHY
...but most of it was beautiful. But just
the same, all I kept saying to everybody
was, I want to go home. And they sent me
home.

MLS -- Dorothy lying in bed -- Aunt Em sitting by her -- Professor at
window -- Uncle Henry -- Zeke -- Hunk and Hickory standing by -- they
laugh -- Toto jumps up on to bed -- Dorothy takes Toto in her arms --

DOROTHY
Doesn't anybody believe me?

UNCLE HENRY
Of course we believe you, Dorothy.

DOROTHY
Oh, but anyway, Toto, we're home!

MCU -- Dorothy holding Toto in her arms -- Camera shooting past Aunt Em at
right f.g. -- Dorothy looks around room -- speaks -- tears come to her
eyes -- Aunt Em rises -- puts her arm around Dorothy -

DOROTHY
Home! And this is my room -- and you're
all here! And I'm not going to leave here
ever, ever again, because I love you all!
And -- Oh, Auntie Em -- there's no place
like home!

FADE OUT:
Forum Moderator
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Originally posted by: Anchorhead
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Originally posted by: Tony
..wouldnt you like Episodes 3, 4, and 5 to fit in perfectly?

Those movies were made decades before the new ones. It's impossible for them not to fit in perfectly - they were first. It should be up to the writer to make the new ones "fit in". And spare me the whole "it was all written in 1975 as a complete story" diatribe. Those of us that were there, know better.

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Originally posted by: Tony
STAR WARS will always be STAR WARS as long as the story does not change.

That's already happened. Significantly.
Nothing was left to chance - there's no unseen characters, there's no luck, there's no twist of fate for anyone, no fortunate or unfortunate turn of events, no characters met along the way - no unrelated characters or events. He's taken a giant, space story from our deepest and wildest imaginations and repackaged it for the current generation of short-attention-span children and 20-somethings that are no longer able to use their imaginations to enrich a story in their minds or do any thinking on their own. They have to have every answer given to them - every detail spelled out for them. He's made the story very small and narrow, every detail neatly sewn up.

He's taken a great outer space science fiction story and turned it into a kids bedtime story where everyone lives happily ever after. It's The Wizard Of Oz for today's generation….


DOROTHY
But you couldn't have been, could you?

AUNT EM
Oh, we dream lots of silly things when we --

DOROTHY
No, Aunt Em -- this was a real, truly live
place. And I remember that some of it
wasn't very nice....

DOROTHY
...but most of it was beautiful. But just
the same, all I kept saying to everybody
was, I want to go home. And they sent me
home.

MLS -- Dorothy lying in bed -- Aunt Em sitting by her -- Professor at
window -- Uncle Henry -- Zeke -- Hunk and Hickory standing by -- they
laugh -- Toto jumps up on to bed -- Dorothy takes Toto in her arms --

DOROTHY
Doesn't anybody believe me?

UNCLE HENRY
Of course we believe you, Dorothy.

DOROTHY
Oh, but anyway, Toto, we're home!

MCU -- Dorothy holding Toto in her arms -- Camera shooting past Aunt Em at
right f.g. -- Dorothy looks around room -- speaks -- tears come to her
eyes -- Aunt Em rises -- puts her arm around Dorothy -

DOROTHY
Home! And this is my room -- and you're
all here! And I'm not going to leave here
ever, ever again, because I love you all!
And -- Oh, Auntie Em -- there's no place
like home!

FADE OUT:


Couldn't agree more with you. Watered down garbage movies and using the "children" as a crutch.
"Drink the Kool-Aid. Wear blinders. Cover your ears. Because that's the only way you can totally enjoy Revenge of the Sith -- the final and most futile attempt from skilled producer, clumsy director and tin-eared writer George Lucas to create a prequel trilogy to match the myth-making spirit of the original Star Wars saga he unleashed twenty-eight years ago. Fan boys, of course, have convinced themselves otherwise. So have several critics, if you go by early reviews."
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Originally posted by: ReverendBeastly
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Originally posted by: Tony
Shimraa it is good to see a STAR WARS Fan that still exist.

Fans Own The Trilogy you are not a fan.

You are an Episodes 4 - 6 Fan Boy.


This is a pretty ridiculous statement. You don't have to like all of the works in a volume to be a fan. Take, for example, the Beatles. I'm just not that fond of Let It Be. Just doesn't really do anything for me. I love Please Please Me, Meet the Beatles, Rubber Soul, Sgt Pepper and all the rest, but just not really Let It Be. That mean's I'm not a Beatles fan? Hell no it doesn't, it just means that of all of their output, I would prefer to listen to Let It Be the least.

That being said, I would like to point out that I am a fan of the entire Star Wars series, both the old and the new, albeit two of the new ones hold the bottom two spots on my list. I merely had to point out how nonsensical your statement regarding "fandom" is.


yeah but if you depise half of them because they are not like the other half well i wouldnt call you a fan either. i would say that you were a fan of the OT not of starwars. there is a difference between dislikeing one or 2 film and hating half of them.
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Well, at least I know I can call myself a fan by my own definition and sleep soundly at night! ^_~

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Well Shim it all depends on your definition.

The American Heritage Dictionary defines 'fan' as:
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NOUN: An ardent devotee; an enthusiast.

ETYMOLOGY: Short for fanatic


and 'Fanatic' as:
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NOUN: A person marked or motivated by an extreme, unreasoning enthusiasm, as for a cause.

ETYMOLOGY:
Latin fanaticus, inspired by orgiastic rites, pertaining to a temple, from fanum, temple.


So yes, if you consider a Star Wars 'fan' to be "a person marked or motivated by an extreme, unreasoning enthusiasm" then I will proudly say that I am NOT a fan- nor would I want to be.

On the other hand, to say (or imply) that one cannot enjoy *parts* of a body of work without blindly appreciating the entirety of the work is, IMHO, ludricrous.

Also, as you said
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there is a difference between dislikeing one or 2 film and hating half of them.

I would have to point out that yes there IS a difference. A ONE or TWO FILM difference. And that is NOT being a 'fan' per Mr. Tony's definition. Vis a vis if you dislike even ONE of the films, then you too aren't a fan. You're one of us...
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Originally posted by: Tony
I will be honest with you all. My favorite Star Wars films go in this order.

1. Revenge Of The Sith
2. Empire Strikes Back
3. The Phantom Menace
4. Attack of The Clones
5. Return Of The Jedi
6. A New Hope





Oh Good God. *shakes head in disbelief*
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Originally posted by: Warbler
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Originally posted by: Tony
I will be honest with you all. My favorite Star Wars films go in this order.

1. Revenge Of The Sith
2. Empire Strikes Back
3. The Phantom Menace
4. Attack of The Clones
5. Return Of The Jedi
6. A New Hope





Oh Good God. *shakes head in disbelief*



LOL! Was waiting for Warbler's comment on that ranking.
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Originally posted by: greencapt
Well Shim it all depends on your definition.

The American Heritage Dictionary defines 'fan' as:
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NOUN: An ardent devotee; an enthusiast.

ETYMOLOGY: Short for fanatic




While those definitions reflect the popular consensus of the word's origins, the first known use of the word "fan" was as a short-form of "fancier" and "fancy." As in, "I fancy those R2D2 underoos." The short form was used to decribe pet fanciers. re: "I like Star Wars, so I'm a Star Wars FANcier."


To address the topic: as far as I'm concerned there's the Prequel Movies ... and then there's Star Wars. No need to call it the original trilogy ... those films are Star Wars. The prequels are their own thing ... an awful thing that I hope I can forget soon.


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Originally posted by: Anakin's Mannequin
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Originally posted by: Warbler
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Originally posted by: Tony
I will be honest with you all. My favorite Star Wars films go in this order.

1. Revenge Of The Sith
2. Empire Strikes Back
3. The Phantom Menace
4. Attack of The Clones
5. Return Of The Jedi
6. A New Hope





Oh Good God. *shakes head in disbelief*


LOL! Was waiting for Warbler's comment on that ranking.



*sigh* how could someone possibly rank the original, classic Star Wars, the one that started it all, last?!?


oh well atleast he didn't rate EPII the greatest movie of all time...
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Originally posted by: Tony
I am not here to provoke any type of flame war, just intelligent conversation. I notice that STAR WARS Fans use terms such as PT or OT to define the films.


No sh--.

I see a lot of people referring to the Lord of the Rings books as "The Lord of the Rings Trilogy." Oddly enough they don't include The Hobbit as part of it, even though the Hobbit is the direct predecessor to said series. Why isn't it called the "Hobbit" series? Why aren't those, The Silmarillion, and Unfinished Tales called "The Middle-Earth books?"

While we're at it, what's the difference between pre-Crisis DC Comics and post-Crisis DC comics? Why aren't they all just "DC Comics?"

Why differentiate between "Mega Man" and "Mega Man X?" Why not just call them all "Mega Man"? Why are people sometimes fans of one but not the other?

Hell, why even go that far? Why not just call Tolkien's books "Fantasy Novels?" or even just "books?" Why not call DC's comics just "comic books?" Why not call Mega Man games simply "Video Games?" It's not like there's any elements that distinguish these from any other books, comics, or video games, are there?

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Originally posted by: Tony
I am not here to provoke any type of flame war, just intelligent conversation. I notice that STAR WARS Fans use terms such as PT or OT to define the films.


No sh--.

I see a lot of people referring to the Lord of the Rings books as "The Lord of the Rings Trilogy." Oddly enough they don't include The Hobbit as part of it, even though the Hobbit is the direct predecessor to said series. Why isn't it called the "Hobbit" series? Why aren't those, The Silmarillion, and Unfinished Tales called "The Middle-Earth books?"

While we're at it, what's the difference between pre-Crisis DC Comics and post-Crisis DC comics? Why aren't they all just "DC Comics?"

Why differentiate between "Mega Man" and "Mega Man X?" Why not just call them all "Mega Man"? Why are people sometimes fans of one but not the other?

Hell, why even go that far? Why not just call Tolkien's books "Fantasy Novels?" or even just "books?" Why not call DC's comics just "comic books?" Why not call Mega Man games simply "Video Games?" It's not like there's any elements that distinguish these from any other books, comics, or video games, are there?

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Kershener would have made the PT better.
"A Jedi can feel the force flow through him".
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Well, yeah...

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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More than "yeah" Gaffer Tape.

He would have made it!!!
"A Jedi can feel the force flow through him".
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Yeah, he would have. It just seemed kinda obvious. One can always dream.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Originally posted by: JamesEightBitStar
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Originally posted by: Tony
I am not here to provoke any type of flame war, just intelligent conversation. I notice that STAR WARS Fans use terms such as PT or OT to define the films.


No sh--.

I see a lot of people referring to the Lord of the Rings books as "The Lord of the Rings Trilogy." Oddly enough they don't include The Hobbit as part of it, even though the Hobbit is the direct predecessor to said series. Why isn't it called the "Hobbit" series? Why aren't those, The Silmarillion, and Unfinished Tales called "The Middle-Earth books?"

While we're at it, what's the difference between pre-Crisis DC Comics and post-Crisis DC comics? Why aren't they all just "DC Comics?"

Why differentiate between "Mega Man" and "Mega Man X?" Why not just call them all "Mega Man"? Why are people sometimes fans of one but not the other?

Hell, why even go that far? Why not just call Tolkien's books "Fantasy Novels?" or even just "books?" Why not call DC's comics just "comic books?" Why not call Mega Man games simply "Video Games?" It's not like there's any elements that distinguish these from any other books, comics, or video games, are there?


cause those were direct names given to them by the authors, but i see your point and i not argueing with you.