The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 205

Mrebo said:

The expectations thing is too often overstated. Of course there were expectations. Who here doesn’t have expectations about Star Wars? If someone didn’t like the movie, saying expectations were not met, well, that should go without saying. Same for those who like the movie, expectations were met. That doesn’t mean the expectations on either side were very specific.

Ah, but expectation are a big thing. It colors peoples views. When a favorite novel is made into a movie, many expect the story they saw in their heads and don’t like it when it comes out different. Expectations are huge. I guess I learned a long time ago to expectations to a minimum. I’ve read a lot of series and it is always best to take each new installment with an open mind and accept what the author has setup for the new story. That’s how I face Star Wars. Each new movie is a new story that will take us in new directions. Expecting something from it besides being true to the Star Wars universe (which to me is very tied to the hero’s journey, golden age science fiction, and samurai cinema) gives the story tellers no room to maneuver. I think that is why the Prequels were received so badly (no, they aren’t as good and ATOC had the lowest points of any Star Wars story, but they were the story GL wanted to tell). I think GL make a lot of mistakes on those, but I don’t think they are as bad as some make them out to be. The same way I found TFA very disappointing. It met the expectations of many, but I found it to be full of lazy storytelling and that he failed to give a solid conclusion to the story. In that way I find it to be the worst of the Star Wars movies. I cringe at C-3PO in the droid factory every time I see AOTC, but that pales in comparison to Finn and Han seeing the beam that destroys the Hosnian system.

Now, I am not impervious to expectations. I have a few for anything, but it is mostly that it stays within a bubble of what has come before in terms of feel and story telling. Star Trek has violated that over the last decade. And when I compare the complaints that Star Wars fans level at the PT or ST to what Star Trek fans are being asked to swallow, it is kind of funny. All the Star Wars movies look and feel like the same universe. The new Star Trek films didn’t even try and setup an alternate timeline and decided that because some effects called for a bigger ship that the so called JJ-prise should be the biggest Enterprise ever (bigger than the two ships Picard captains). And it gets worse. CBS decided that Star Trek Discovery is back to the prime timeline. Except they drastically changed the Klingons, the technology, the uniforms, went against several things that are said to have explicitly never happened, and just dropped the ball on any kind of research what-so-ever. Now, that would be fine for a reboot, but… Well, I’ll just say that in comparison, complains about TLJ are very nitpicking to me. My expectation for Star Trek is that they follow the established timeline and canon and that they keep to the mix of Roddenberry’s vision (a Utopian future where the human race had evolved and handles situations based on higher ideals) with the space action adventure that NBC wanted. Star Trek Discovery violates canon and ignores Roddenberry’s vision to so me that isn’t Star Trek. TLJ is Star Wars. At least to me. At least JJ and Rian are fans and are following canon and making something that looks and feels right, even if the story doesn’t go where you like.

I hope that makes clear where I’m coming from in this discussion.

Collipso said:

Isn’t that a TFA issue? Several of the inconsistencies and “plot holes” listed here apply to TFA too.

To an extend, but at least in TFA there was still a New Republic, and the barren conditions of the FO’s home base made it seem like they were a well supported fringe government, run by extremists. Given what happened in TFA, I would have expected both the New Republic and the FO to be severely weakened. This should have given rise to a totally different dynamic in the conflict, with two nations fighting a war of attrition with limited resources. However, it was not to be. The New Republic was destroyed, and the FO seemingly unstoppable without explanation.

chyron8472 said:

If we’re still picking apart the physics of Star Wars, why has no one pointed out just how long it would take for matter from a star to reach a habitable planet (ie. Starkiller Base) that’s as far from it as we are from the Sun (we are 8.3 light minutes away)? Matter is not going to traverse the distance at the speed of light, and the appearance of the stream suggests it does not enter hyperspace.

no one in star wars learned physics, so they aren’t constrained by it.

“we are only limited by our minds”

chyron8472 said:

Not to mention the amount of time it would take to move that amount of matter (from the star to SKB), given that our own sun is about 333,000 as massive as Earth is. I’m not saying SKB is as big as Earth, but that a star has such an incomprehensibly large about of mass that it would take forever to move it all 8 light-minutes away even at relativistic speeds.

that’s what ludicrous speed is for

Sir Ridley said:

That’s how real space works, but Star Wars space is special.

Exactly.

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

So I just watched The Dark Knight and The Dark Knight Rises back to back, and I think that if TLJ treated Luke the same way TDKR treats Batman, TLJ Luke would be much more acceptable to me.

For example, at the end of both TLJ and TDKR, the older hero passes on the torch to the pupil, but while in TDKR Batman wins the war and finally provides peace a second time, Luke… just passes on the torch and says “hey boyos, now that I’ve given you guys hope please clean it up!!”

No.

I actually really liked the idea. Too bad you didn’t. Care to explain?

By the way, I know it’s extremely different because Batman is the protagonist of TDKR while Luke isn’t the protagonist of TLJ, but I think that approach was still viable if they wanted to.

The other big obvious difference is that we’re talking about a part 3 vs. a part 2.

Most importantly, though, Batman doesn’t “win the war” and “finally provide peace.” He just defeated this specific threat (with the help of others). There’s no suggestion whatsoever that there will be peace in Gotham from here on out. In fact, it’s made quite clear there won’t be, otherwise what’s the point of him passing the torch to JGL?

NeverarGreat said:

Matt.F said:

NeverarGreat said:

chyron8472 said:

Mrebo said:

tere are good explanations for most of them anyway.

There are explanations now that we’ve had ages to ponder them. Conversely, the novelization for TLJ isn’t even out yet.

The TFA novel straight up explains how the Starkiller beam could destroy a planet on the other side of the galaxy from where the base itself is located. It just depends on it you want to accept that explanation.

That is to say, you like the movie or you don’t, and that’s your choice. But holding ST and OT up to different yard sticks isn’t exactly fair.

We shouldn’t need novelizations to justify the events of a movie.

But as for different yardsticks, the Death Star was a moon sized space station with essentially a big version of a blaster that could blow up rocky planets. It required the resources of a galaxy-spanning empire to build.

Starkiller Base is a piece of construction many times larger than the Death Star, with a primary weapon requiring seemingly universe-breaking technology that has never been previously hinted at or explained, built by an organization that by all indications is a fraction the size of the Empire.

These are not two yardsticks.

Iteration is your answer.

The German Empire was defeated in WWI, the Nazi’s “rose from the ashes” and 20 years later the Third Reich invaded Poland and WWII began.

The engineering iteration upon the previous weapons, saw the war machine now employ cannon that could span the English channel, unmanned V2 bombs, U boats, and any number of other more advanced hardware (including ultimately nuclear weapons).

Pretty obvious that the First Order is based upon the hardware of the Empire (TIE Fighters, Star Destroyers, Stormtrooper armour, Starkiller Base, etc), and so iteration is your answer to why they are more advanced.

But that still doesn’t answer the question of why they were able to build a far more ambitious project with far less resources. If we saw that they used a robotic workforce and had a lot of automation for their fleet it would make sense, but we get no indication that it’s different from the Empire in this regard. Hux even says that it’s a machine ‘that you have built’. Yet another missed opportunity if you ask me.

Why do we need to see the First Order’s means of production? The only time we saw that before in Star Wars was in one of its most infamous scenes (“Shut me down, machines making machines”). We have no idea how they or the Empire did it so why should it matter?

By the way, we have no indication that the Starkiller base ever moves. Why would it travel through hyperspace if its beam can instead?

Here’s the other thing about the base, just because it got destroyed doesn’t mean that the First Order is done. In TLJ we see their fleet, why would any of those star destroyers be on the base? Of course they wouldn’t have been destroyed. And we know that Snoke isn’t there, so the information that he has his base of operations on a mega star destroyer isn’t a terrible surprise.

And the thing about the FO in general, is yeah, we don’t have any idea how they became so powerful - in the movies at least. I don’t see that as a problem, it’s not a plot hole, you might wish that they had explained it but it’s not something that’s unexplainable. And there is something of an explanation in the new canon content. As to whether the FO is a “fringe” group, well that depends on your definition of fringe. I don’t think there was any question in TFA that the FO was powerful and resourceful. TLJ doesn’t betray their galactic standing.

DominicCobb said:

By the way, we have no indication that the Starkiller base ever moves. Why would it travel through hyperspace if its beam can instead?

Here’s the other thing about the base, just because it got destroyed doesn’t mean that the First Order is done. In TLJ we see their fleet, why would any of those star destroyers be on the base? Of course they wouldn’t have been destroyed. And we know that Snoke isn’t there, so the information that he has his base of operations on a mega star destroyer isn’t a terrible surprise.

And the thing about the FO in general, is yeah, we don’t have any idea how they became so powerful - in the movies at least. I don’t see that as a problem, it’s not a plot hole, you might wish that they had explained it but it’s not something that’s unexplainable. And there is something of an explanation in the new canon content. As to whether the FO is a “fringe” group, well that depends on your definition of fringe. I don’t think there was any question in TFA that the FO was powerful and resourceful. TLJ doesn’t betray their galactic standing.

not disagreeing with your post, but i do think we know that SKB moves. it has to find new host stars…

dahmage said:

DominicCobb said:

By the way, we have no indication that the Starkiller base ever moves. Why would it travel through hyperspace if its beam can instead?

Here’s the other thing about the base, just because it got destroyed doesn’t mean that the First Order is done. In TLJ we see their fleet, why would any of those star destroyers be on the base? Of course they wouldn’t have been destroyed. And we know that Snoke isn’t there, so the information that he has his base of operations on a mega star destroyer isn’t a terrible surprise.

And the thing about the FO in general, is yeah, we don’t have any idea how they became so powerful - in the movies at least. I don’t see that as a problem, it’s not a plot hole, you might wish that they had explained it but it’s not something that’s unexplainable. And there is something of an explanation in the new canon content. As to whether the FO is a “fringe” group, well that depends on your definition of fringe. I don’t think there was any question in TFA that the FO was powerful and resourceful. TLJ doesn’t betray their galactic standing.

not disagreeing with your post, but i do think we know that SKB moves. it has to find new host stars…

This is something that still confuses me to this day.

dahmage said:

DominicCobb said:

By the way, we have no indication that the Starkiller base ever moves. Why would it travel through hyperspace if its beam can instead?

Here’s the other thing about the base, just because it got destroyed doesn’t mean that the First Order is done. In TLJ we see their fleet, why would any of those star destroyers be on the base? Of course they wouldn’t have been destroyed. And we know that Snoke isn’t there, so the information that he has his base of operations on a mega star destroyer isn’t a terrible surprise.

And the thing about the FO in general, is yeah, we don’t have any idea how they became so powerful - in the movies at least. I don’t see that as a problem, it’s not a plot hole, you might wish that they had explained it but it’s not something that’s unexplainable. And there is something of an explanation in the new canon content. As to whether the FO is a “fringe” group, well that depends on your definition of fringe. I don’t think there was any question in TFA that the FO was powerful and resourceful. TLJ doesn’t betray their galactic standing.

not disagreeing with your post, but i do think we know that SKB moves. it has to find new host stars…

If it can destroy planets through hyperspace, why can’t it eat stars through hyperspace?

yotsuya said:

dahmage said:

DominicCobb said:

By the way, we have no indication that the Starkiller base ever moves. Why would it travel through hyperspace if its beam can instead?

Here’s the other thing about the base, just because it got destroyed doesn’t mean that the First Order is done. In TLJ we see their fleet, why would any of those star destroyers be on the base? Of course they wouldn’t have been destroyed. And we know that Snoke isn’t there, so the information that he has his base of operations on a mega star destroyer isn’t a terrible surprise.

And the thing about the FO in general, is yeah, we don’t have any idea how they became so powerful - in the movies at least. I don’t see that as a problem, it’s not a plot hole, you might wish that they had explained it but it’s not something that’s unexplainable. And there is something of an explanation in the new canon content. As to whether the FO is a “fringe” group, well that depends on your definition of fringe. I don’t think there was any question in TFA that the FO was powerful and resourceful. TLJ doesn’t betray their galactic standing.

not disagreeing with your post, but i do think we know that SKB moves. it has to find new host stars…

If it can destroy planets through hyperspace, why can’t it eat stars through hyperspace?

same reason we have guns that can shoot over a mile, but we still have to be within a few inches of an object to vacuum clean it.

Also, isn’t there a line in the movie that basically says that they are in orbit around a new star?

Mrebo said:

Funny how we went from the DS obviously had to have hyperdrive to the DSK didn’t move. Goes to illustrate how different perceptions can be. Seemed obvious that DSK moved. And based on previous DS discussion zoomed through hyperspace?

SKB

I don’t think there’s any doubt that the DS went through hyperspace. It’s insane to think how it’d work if it didn’t. The SKB, on the other hand, gives you good reason to think it doesn’t move, as it’s weapon is specifically designed to attack remote systems. The confusing part is in which sun it drains from, but this is confusing no matter which way you crack it.

On the one hand, maybe it drains remote suns just like how it destroys remote planets. But in that case, why does it drain its own sun? On the other hand, maybe it does move around to new suns, but in that case why doesn’t it completely drain the first sun it orbits like it does the second (Hux’s speech is in daylight)? To me it doesn’t matter much either way.

Well if SKB eats a sun then right after the sun is eaten theoretically everyone should die.

Collipso said:

Well if SKB eats a sun then right after the sun is eaten theoretically everyone should die.

I feel like that the idea for the Starkiller weapon was originally conceived as “this laser destroys suns in remote systems, thus killing those planets too,” but this was probably changed as it’s a lot less straightforward.

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

So I just watched The Dark Knight and The Dark Knight Rises back to back, and I think that if TLJ treated Luke the same way TDKR treats Batman, TLJ Luke would be much more acceptable to me.

For example, at the end of both TLJ and TDKR, the older hero passes on the torch to the pupil, but while in TDKR Batman wins the war and finally provides peace a second time, Luke… just passes on the torch and says “hey boyos, now that I’ve given you guys hope please clean it up!!”

No.

I actually really liked the idea. Too bad you didn’t. Care to explain?

By the way, I know it’s extremely different because Batman is the protagonist of TDKR while Luke isn’t the protagonist of TLJ, but I think that approach was still viable if they wanted to.

The other big obvious difference is that we’re talking about a part 3 vs. a part 2.

Most importantly, though, Batman doesn’t “win the war” and “finally provide peace.” He just defeated this specific threat (with the help of others). There’s no suggestion whatsoever that there will be peace in Gotham from here on out. In fact, it’s made quite clear there won’t be, otherwise what’s the point of him passing the torch to JGL?

What I mean is, Luke could’ve done something more concrete as opposed to just giving hope. For him to have a great and ultimate concrete victory would not only give his death scene a lot more weight when it came (and I’m not saying to change that, it could stay just the same in the exact same spot in the film), but it could make the FO the guys on the run instead of the Resistance in IX, shaking things up a bit, and it would’ve been really cool too.

The comparison between TDKR and TLJ was drawn because I remembered Bruce coming out of the pit after failing miserably and winning a battle while sacrificing himself without sacrificing himself, as opposed to Luke doing the exact same thing except he doesn’t concretely win the battle. I guess that’s what I’m trying to say. Luke did everything Batman did, but he didn’t win. He still went out as a loser. Sure it was an amazing scene where he beat Kylo mentally in one of the most extraordinary and beautiful moments of the saga, and he might have philosophically won, but it’d be like if at the end of TDKR, even though Batman sacrificed himself and saved Gotham, Bane just came back and continued being the overwhelming powerful force that controls the city. So what Batman did technically didn’t affect anything, but it shook everyone’s spirit.

But yeah, I guess it’d impossible. Glad I’m not a screenwriter for Lucasfilm I suppose.