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Jeb Bush was pretty principled and reasonable as I recall. He just wasn’t edgy enough for all those primary voters.
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And I’ve personally heard Republicans I know complain at length about Obama greatly increasing the National Debt. But how on Earth did anyone think Trump would solve that? Does no one care about the increasing trillions in debt we owe, in favor of obsessing over some stupid wall?
chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.
Jeb Bush was pretty principled and reasonable as I recall. He just wasn’t edgy enough for all those primary voters.
Some assorted thoughts:
- For god’s sake, in writing, just spell out the swear word. You’re not fooling anybody by it. The only reason I do it is because of the forum rules.
I try to avoid swearing to be a good representative of my faith, especially on this forum. The f-word is especially off limits to me, and therefore I edit it out of many posts I am quoting.
I hate when people try to tiptoe around the word “racist” by using euphemisms like “racially charged” or “some people maybe think this is racist.” Just say the word. The media’s definitely guilty of this.
Our view of what’s racist and what’s not racist is kind of messed up. Most people think you have to be some outright segregationist to be a racist. No, there’s more to it than that. And we’re heavily biased towards racist word than racist actions. See: the reaction to the shithole comment and the reaction to actually racist policies.
This is true. I personally feel I have come to a greater truth on this topic than most, because I believe that we are nearly all racist to some extent. I believe that we pardon some racism because of who it came from or how it was framed, but I believe it is always wrong. However, I try to be slow to judge others for it because a) it is so universal; and b) most people try to stifle it to some extent, and I give them credit for trying. What I find to be the biggest danger is that there are those who refuse to acknowledge their own tendencies, especially when they are quick to judge others. Racism is one of the most pervasive evils of this world, but it is also one of the most natural. Studies have shown that we tend to have racial biases even in the earliest stages of development. It takes active effort to overcome these inherent challenges. Don’t be so hasty to point the finger, especially when most of Hillary’s deplorables are simply good but ignorant people.
- darth_ender, the thing about “slightly different wording” is nonsense, but you do have a point about the additional sentence.
No, your wording is not nonsense. Let’s say I did decide to vote for Trump even though I despise him. I wouldn’t have done so because I am fine with his racism. I might oppose his racism, but still be okay with it when compared to what I opposed in Hillary. There is the nuance in your two sentences. Thank you for acknowledging that the additional sentence seals the deal.
- The most powerful tool you have in a democracy is your vote. Therefore, you shouldn’t waste it on a bigot just because you like their tax plan. Sometimes you won’t really like either candidate, but, sometimes you just have to learn to grow up and just do the right thing.
I disagree here. My vote is one of many tools, and unfortunately it is a weaker one. More powerful actions would be those that influence policy, such as trying to influence large groups of others’ votes, lobbying for change with politicians themselves, etc.
I wish that the GOP constituents had realized that Trump was not the right thing. He is a terrible human. Unfortunately, party loyalty and a terrible Democratic candidate (though not nearly as terrible as Trump) blinded the majority of Republicans.
Winston Churchill was a raving anti-Semite,
I didn’t know that.
Thomas Jefferson owned and raped his wife’s half-sister.
I didn’t know that his wife had a half-sister that I assume was black(you say he owned her). I also didn’t know he raped anyone. Are you referring to Sally Hemings, I know about her but I didn’t realize she was Jefferson’s wife’s half sister or that Jefferson had raped her.
But people supported their causes and history still treats these people kindly because we still do.
I think the problem people on the Left have with Trump is that we thought society moved on a little bit further on racial issues than we really had, so we thought these historical examples didn’t apply to the present. Turns out, not so much.
There are slight differences, though. Trump made racism the centerpiece of his political campaign, and had no other coherent policy positions other than racism, so supporting him to advance a policy position that wasn’t inherently racist was an act of faith, rather than weighing the relative values of concrete ideals.
And I’ve personally heard Republicans I know complain at length about Obama greatly increasing the National Debt. But how on Earth did anyone think Trump would solve that? Does no one care about the increasing trillions in debt we owe, in favor of obsessing over some stupid wall?
You know the saying. People only mentioned the deficit when they are trying to complain about the other party.
When Chris Christie is among the most reasonable, principled voices in the room…
I liked Kasich.
chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.
But no, it must be “either you’re racist or you’re fine with a racist.”
That is not what I said. But Republicans were not forced to support Trump. They could have gone third party. They could have wrote someone in.
I was responding more to yhwx via your comment.
But I think I’ll try that third party trick next time. Maybe it’ll work 😉
But no, it must be “either you’re racist or you’re fine with a racist.”
If you voted for him, then yes, racism wasn’t a big enough factor for you to stop voting for him. Thus, you’re fine with voting for a racist. Sorry.
That’s like saying, “If you voted for Hillary, than you share her views that half the country is deplorable.”
Of course, when you happily subject yourself to either/or fallacies, you might just feel that way, so…
hillary never said half the country was deplorables. she said half of those supporting trump were. (or something like that) and for the record. yes i did agree with her. wasn’t a smart thing to say in a political race though.
You’re right, she did say half of Trump’s supporters filled what she termed a “basket full of deplorables.” I concede that point.
However, there are a lot of people who don’t share my views on pretty serious topics. To consider everyone with whom I strongly disagreed a deplorable is pretty arrogant. My dad, for instance, is a Trumpt supporter. He is also mildly racist, in the sense that he does hold some archaic views. But he is not antagonistic, would never protest equal treatment, would never condone separation of the races, etc. He does not see Trump as such a guy, either. He believes Trump’s s***hole comment, for instance, was taken out of context and was not racist in intent or view.
Now, I think my dad is actually a really good human being. Yes, he’s older, holds older views, some of which could be termed racist. However, if you think my dad is a deplorable individual, then it reveals more about your arrogance and the arrogance of any liberals who feel they are somehow better people because they don’t recognize their own biases and bigotry.
I just want to make two things clear. It is a pretty arrogant thing to call others deplorable I am well aware of that. But there is also some degree to which there are deplorable people whether or not they want to have that label. When I say I agree with what Hillary said I think what I mean is that there are some people who are supporting Trump for all the bad reasons. Calling it a basket of deplorables is hyperbole from a frustrated liberal.
Secondly I in no way called everyone who voted for Trump deplorable and I would thank you to not assume that I’m calling your dad deplorable.
I was saying you in more of the general sense, not necessarily you specifically.
JEDIT: To be clearer, I was meaning that you as an individual could choose to include yourself in that camp, but I honestly didn’t really think you felt that way, and I was trying to phrase it in such a way that you was generalized rather than specific. Only if you felt it applied should you apply it to yourself.
Also, while I agree that there are a lot of people who supported Trump for awful reasons, I think that saying half of his supporters fall into that category is where the hyperbole got dangerous.
When Chris Christie is among the most reasonable, principled voices in the room…
I liked Kasich.
Seconded. He didn’t have much charisma, but I liked his views.
But no, it must be “either you’re racist or you’re fine with a racist.”
If you voted for him, then yes, racism wasn’t a big enough factor for you to stop voting for him. Thus, you’re fine with voting for a racist. Sorry.
That’s like saying, “If you voted for Hillary, than you share her views that half the country is deplorable.”
Sorry, you missed again. Firstly, that was something Clinton said once, while Trump’s racism has been confirmed by every second of his existence.
I am sorry, but Hillary has revealed her arrogance and contempt for conservatives more than once.
True, but nowhere the number of times that Trump has revealed his arrogance and contempt for anyone that disagrees with him(especially liberals and the media).
But it wasn’t just Trump vs. Hillary.
It was Trump vs. Cruz vs. Kasich vs. Rubio vs. Carson vs. Bush vs. Christie… et al.vs. Clinton vs. Sanders.
It still baffles me how Trump managed to rise to the top among all the other better Republican candidates.
it baffles me too
I didn’t know that his wife had a half-sister
Yes, Sally Hemings was originally the slave (and daughter via slave rape) of Jefferson’s father-in-law. She was then transferred to Jefferson.
The more you learn about Jefferson/Hemings, the more ick.
The Churchill bit makes a good trivia question. “Which WWII leader’s diary featured long diatribes about Jewish conspiracies?” Very few will guess Churchill, but there it is.
When Chris Christie is among the most reasonable, principled voices in the room…
I liked Kasich.
I’m from Ohio. He’s Christie without the charisma, which made him look good in that crowd 😉
But no, it must be “either you’re racist or you’re fine with a racist.”
If you voted for him, then yes, racism wasn’t a big enough factor for you to stop voting for him. Thus, you’re fine with voting for a racist. Sorry.
That’s like saying, “If you voted for Hillary, than you share her views that half the country is deplorable.”
Sorry, you missed again. Firstly, that was something Clinton said once, while Trump’s racism has been confirmed by every second of his existence.
I am sorry, but Hillary has revealed her arrogance and contempt for conservatives more than once.
True, but nowhere the number of times that Trump has revealed his arrogance and contempt for anyone that disagrees with him(especially liberals and the media).
Remember, I am not actually defending Trump. I almost voted for Hillary. In the end, I voted for McMullin.
Some assorted thoughts:
- For god’s sake, in writing, just spell out the swear word. You’re not fooling anybody by it. The only reason I do it is because of the forum rules.
If people want to censor their own posts and not spell out swear words, what is wrong with that? Also they may be doing it for the same reason you are: forum rules.
- I hate when people try to tiptoe around the word “racist” by using euphemisms like “racially charged” or “some people maybe think this is racist.” Just say the word. The media’s definitely guilty of this.
Why shouldn’t I say that “some people maybe think this is racist” in situations where I think that is the case? I don’t understand you here.
- Our view of what’s racist and what’s not racist is kind of messed up. Most people think you have to be some outright segregationist to be a racist. No, there’s more to it than that. And we’re heavily biased towards racist word than racist actions. See: the reaction to the shithole comment and the reaction to actually racist policies.
people sometimes disagree on what is and what is not a racist policy.
- The most powerful tool you have in a democracy is your vote. Therefore, you shouldn’t waste it on a bigot just because you like their tax plan. Sometimes you won’t really like either candidate, but, sometimes you just have to learn to grow up and just do the right thing.
on this we agree. At the very least, you can vote third party or write-in if your candidate is a racist and you can bring yourself to voting for the other party.
-Blacks gaining the right to eat in any restaurant they want
Oh, you mean those laws that were limited to the Southern states and were first introduced by the Democrat Party, and even when Republicans later began to support those laws, it was still isolated to the South.
It irks me when people conflate the Democratic party of the late 20th - 21st century and the pre-realignment Democratic party that originally represented rural America and the South. In short, the Democratic party was socially conservative until Roosevelt, and even then it took until the civil rights movement for conservative southern Democrats to abandon the party for the Republican ticket.
Not to mention conflating the old Republican party with the present-day Republican party. The Republican party ended slavery? Yay! That Republican party no longer exists.
Now all Republicans are racists! It’s so simple to put them all in a box instead of using my head a bit! Yay!
The vast majority of Republicans supported a racist for the head of their party. If you do that, you’re either a racist or someone who’s fine with racism. At some point, there’s no difference.
Either/or fallacy. Nice.
Well many Republicans did support Trump, and I think he is a scumbag.
I think he’s a scumbag too, and for that reason, I left the party. But is it really down to exactly those two items? No, the reality of the situation is that many Republicans do not like him, but they felt he at least was better aligned with their views than Hillary on issues that were important to them, abortion being a fine example.
And many people are ignorant and do not believe that Trump really says or does the things he says and does. They believe that the media is actually portraying the president in a negative light simply to make him look bad. We were given a terrible choice in our last presidential election cycle, and some people falsely saw him as the lesser of two evils. When you have an electoral system that only gives two parties a reasonable chance of winning, it makes it difficult to choose someone who really stands for the same things you do.
But no, it must be “either you’re racist or you’re fine with a racist.”
It doesn’t take much tweaking to turn that statement true, however. Either you support him because he’s a racist or you support him because you believe the issues he’ll advance are important enough that his racism is an acceptable risk. Winston Churchill was a raving anti-Semite, Susan B Anthony was racist as shit, Thomas Jefferson owned and raped his wife’s half-sister. But people supported their causes and history still treats these people kindly because we still do.
I think the problem people on the Left have with Trump is that we thought society moved on a little bit further on racial issues than we really had, so we thought these historical examples didn’t apply to the present. Turns out, not so much.
There are slight differences, though. Trump made racism the centerpiece of his political campaign, and had no other coherent policy positions other than racism, so supporting him to advance a policy position that wasn’t inherently racist was an act of faith, rather than weighing the relative values of concrete ideals.
But you have to also understand how things are perceived. Gosh, I am not even trying to defend Trump; I can’t stand the man and I think he has permanently damaged conservative causes, as the prevailing opinion of this thread demonstrates.
Don’t worry; conservative views were already damaged for us before Trump ever came down that escalator.
My point to this is that, while Trump is clearly a racist, I believe the majority of his supporters have deluded themselves into believing he is not. This is not because they too are racists (or at least not tremendously so). This is more because of their confirmation bias that has led them to believe that Trump is being misinterpreted by the media and he just is a little too outspoken.
Delusional isn’t that much better either.
nonetheless there is a difference between voting for someone that you think is racist because you like racism and voting for someone that you have deluded yourself into thinking that he/she is not a racist.
Jeb Bush was pretty principled and reasonable as I recall. He just wasn’t edgy enough for all those primary voters.
I think the problem with Jeb Bush was his name. There was too much of a “been there, done that” thing surrounding him.
I will provide one last illustration of what I mean, and then I will stop for the day, merely taking the time to ponder how on earth a conversation about abortion led to this.
In Utah, Evan McMullin, an independent candidate, had a good shot of winning the Electoral vote there.
http://www.businessinsider.com/republicans-evan-mcmullin-utah-polls-2016-11
It was basically a three-way tie three days before the election, with all three hovering around 20-24%! Can you believe that? In the conservative bastion of Mormon Utah, going into the election, all three candidates had a fairly equal chance of winning. Utah has not voted for a Democratic president since 1964, and here is Hillary with a good chance of winning! Moreover, the last time a third-party candidate one a state was in 1968, and yet, McMullin stood a good chance of winning Utah as well! Why? I would speculate that it was because most Mormons do not actually like Trump. Many defected to the Democratic side because Hillary was the only other candidate they felt had a good chance of winning. Meanwhile, many others turned to McMullin, a fellow conservative Mormon as an acceptable, if not viable, candidate.
But in the end, Trump won with 45% of the vote. Yes, he didn’t get the majority, but he achieved the plurality. Why did the state flip definitively for him in the end? The answer is simple: he had a chance to win and support conservative causes most Utahns believed in, even if they did not like him or all of his views. Hillary still supported those liberal causes Mormons couldn’t get behind, while McMullin couldn’t win the larger race, even if he did take Utah. Conscientious of the closeness of the national race in our stupid two-party system, Utah threw their support behind Trump.
Does that mean that 45% of Utah is racist or fine with Trump’s racism? I believe the most likely answer is that, no, most are not racist, but rather they took a risk on whom they believed would best support the majority of their views. Sadly, I am confident it was the wrong answer.
My point: don’t be hasty to make accusations; human behavior is complex, and to define it simplistically with an either/or fallacy will only lead you (the general you—no one in specific) to come to your own biased and bigoted conclusions about others.
But no, it must be “either you’re racist or you’re fine with a racist.”
That is not what I said. But Republicans were not forced to support Trump. They could have gone third party. They could have wrote someone in.
I was responding more to yhwx via your comment.
But I think I’ll try that third party trick next time. Maybe it’ll work 😉
doubt it, but I would still do it instead of voting for the likes of Trump.
I didn’t know that his wife had a half-sister
Yes, Sally Hemings was originally the slave (and daughter via slave rape) of Jefferson’s father-in-law. She was then transferred to Jefferson.
The more you learn about Jefferson/Hemings, the more ick.
The Churchill bit makes a good trivia question. “Which WWII leader’s diary featured long diatribes about Jewish conspiracies?” Very few will guess Churchill, but there it is.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Hitler’s diary also contained such. You said WWII leader, and did not indicate a side.
But no, it must be “either you’re racist or you’re fine with a racist.”
If you voted for him, then yes, racism wasn’t a big enough factor for you to stop voting for him. Thus, you’re fine with voting for a racist. Sorry.
That’s like saying, “If you voted for Hillary, than you share her views that half the country is deplorable.”
Sorry, you missed again. Firstly, that was something Clinton said once, while Trump’s racism has been confirmed by every second of his existence.
I am sorry, but Hillary has revealed her arrogance and contempt for conservatives more than once.
True, but nowhere the number of times that Trump has revealed his arrogance and contempt for anyone that disagrees with him(especially liberals and the media).
Remember, I am not actually defending Trump. I almost voted for Hillary. In the end, I voted for McMullin.
I don’t recall him being on the ballot? Was he on the ballot in your state or did you write him in? Just curious.
I didn’t know that his wife had a half-sister
Yes, Sally Hemings was originally the slave (and daughter via slave rape) of Jefferson’s father-in-law. She was then transferred to Jefferson.
The more you learn about Jefferson/Hemings, the more ick.
The Churchill bit makes a good trivia question. “Which WWII leader’s diary featured long diatribes about Jewish conspiracies?” Very few will guess Churchill, but there it is.
They did enough good for me to forgive their antiquated bullshit.
The Person in Question
The US Constitution, Article 2, Section 3, Clause 1 said:
He shall from time to time give to the Congress Information of the State of the Union, and recommend to their Consideration such Measures as he shall judge necessary and expedient;
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2018/01/abolish-the-state-of-the-union-address.html
But no, it must be “either you’re racist or you’re fine with a racist.”
If you voted for him, then yes, racism wasn’t a big enough factor for you to stop voting for him. Thus, you’re fine with voting for a racist. Sorry.
That’s like saying, “If you voted for Hillary, than you share her views that half the country is deplorable.”
Sorry, you missed again. Firstly, that was something Clinton said once, while Trump’s racism has been confirmed by every second of his existence.
I am sorry, but Hillary has revealed her arrogance and contempt for conservatives more than once.
True, but nowhere the number of times that Trump has revealed his arrogance and contempt for anyone that disagrees with him(especially liberals and the media).
Remember, I am not actually defending Trump. I almost voted for Hillary. In the end, I voted for McMullin.
I don’t recall him being on the ballot? Was he on the ballot in your state or did you write him in? Just curious.
He made the ballot in a few states, including d_e’s if I remember correctly.