logo Sign In

Original trilogy

Author
Date
Author
Time
Post link
I originally posted this in the general disscussion forum, but they told me to move here, so here it is:

I'm sure there has been a thread like this before, but why do you guys care so much about lucas releasing the original trilogy? The changes he made were good and bad, but overal, they don't effect the movie that much. The movies are still good with the changes. George Lucas is a creative director. He is a perfectionist, but if he wasn't the star wars movies necer would have been good tin the first place. If you can't enjoy the movies with the changes he made, then you're just in a bad mind set

That said, no offense to anyone.

May the force be with you.
If you don't like all the star wars movies, you're not a true star wars fan.
Author
Time
Post link
But the changes do make a difference:

- Han Shot First-
Originally, Han was projected as being kind of evil, shooting Greedo in cold-blood. Through the movie, he changes until he a hero for the Alliance. Its an important character transformation.

Now, with Greedo shooting first, its just self-defense.

-Jabba-
Some of the lines were corny and the melding of digital Jabba into the scene, even with the DVD, just does NOT look right.
Plus, in ROTJ, Jabba doesn't seem very forgiving. Why introduce him as being that way?

-Luke's scream in ESB-
Even Lucas knows he screwed up on this, because he changed it back for the DVDs.

-Visual Changes-
Changes where the story doesn't really change, its just updated graphics, I have no problem with (heading into Mos Eisley, the trip to the Death Star, etc.).
BUT that doesn't mean I would like to see the originals at some point. There is a certain nostalgia about having the old films available to us.
Author
Time
Post link
two posts down there is another thread that is basically the same thing (as there are many others besides that one) here is a link to it http://www.originaltrilogy.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=4&threadid=2118 it addresses (i believe) all the questions you posed. Since i responded there im not gonna repost my thoughts on that here mainly cause it would take too long and im lazy. I will further expand upon any if you so desire after reading them.

-Darth Simon
Why Anakin really turned to the dark side:
"Anakin, You're father I am" - Yoda
"No. No. That's not true! That's impossible!" - Anakin

0100111001101001011011100110101001100001

*touchy people disclaimer*
some or all of the above comments are partially exaggerated to convey a point, none of the comments are meant as personal attacks on anyone mentioned or reference in the above post
Author
Time
Post link
How can Lucas make Greedo shoot first with out reshooting it anyway?
If you don't like all the star wars movies, you're not a true star wars fan.
Author
Time
Post link
Ridiculous editing. Check out the SEs for yourself. The only new thing he shot for ANH was Boba Fett to slap into the Jabba scene for no reason whatsoever.

I used to be very active on this forum. I’m not really anymore. Sometimes, people still want to get in touch with me about something, and that is great! If that describes you, please email me at [my username]ATgmailDOTcom.

Hi everybody. You’re all awesome. Keep up the good work.

Author
Time
Post link
Quote
Originally posted by: vada hada
How can Lucas make Greedo shoot first with out reshooting it anyway?


the magic of cgi

though that post begs the question...have you seen the OOT or have you only seen lucas' Special Editions?

-Darth Simon
Why Anakin really turned to the dark side:
"Anakin, You're father I am" - Yoda
"No. No. That's not true! That's impossible!" - Anakin

0100111001101001011011100110101001100001

*touchy people disclaimer*
some or all of the above comments are partially exaggerated to convey a point, none of the comments are meant as personal attacks on anyone mentioned or reference in the above post
Author
Time
Post link
I've seen a new hope, as the original and the special adition. I just think that the movies are still good with the changes. I don't really care about the Greedo thing, but why did Lucas change it anyway?
If you don't like all the star wars movies, you're not a true star wars fan.
Author
Time
Post link
I dunno why he changed it, I believe it was because he wanted to make Han not appear to be a cold blooded murder. though if i told someone they could take my ship over my dead body and they said that they were looking forward to that for a long time i sure as hell would take that as a threat on my life and that their intention was to kill me (especially if they are pointing a gun at me) so i would probably blast them under the table just as Han did.

So all he really did was take away part of Han's character, instead of being a rogue and having one up on Greedo he only fired in response to Greedo being an unbelievably terrible shot. (keep in mind, Han didnt have the ability to aim as precisly as greedo because Han's gun was under the table)

so its just things like that, yeah, the movies are still good, but they arent as good as the Originals. Even the changes that dont change the plot still slow down the flow of the movie. If he's such a perfectionist why doesnt he realize that while not perfect maybe, the OOT was pretty darn close, and was closer than the SE's are. His changes are only dealing with the perfection of the visual representation of the special effects, not with the story as a whole. If he was such a perfectionist then if he didnt think the movies were perfect he should never had released them. What about Lucas' mind set, he couldnt enjoy the movies as they were, as millions of people had done for 20 years before he made changes. I think he hides behind being called a perfectionist as a way to justify the changes he makes to a movie that was perfectly fine.

-Darth Simon
Why Anakin really turned to the dark side:
"Anakin, You're father I am" - Yoda
"No. No. That's not true! That's impossible!" - Anakin

0100111001101001011011100110101001100001

*touchy people disclaimer*
some or all of the above comments are partially exaggerated to convey a point, none of the comments are meant as personal attacks on anyone mentioned or reference in the above post
Author
Time
Post link
Darth Simon:

I think your first paragraph contradicts your second. It was self-defense under either version given the preceding conversation - which is what makes the whole character arc argument nonsense. I think the change is corny and unecessary if I focus on it, but the cheesy thinkg about it is the fact that Lucas felt he needed to make the change in first place, not what it really does to the film itself. And I just don't get the mantra that it fundamentally changes Han's character. There is nothing wrong with what he did in either version and I'm sure he would have done the same if the episode happened after the end of the third movie.

Also I don't think most people even notice the change if they don't know about it (I certainly didn't notice it when I saw the SE in theater). I didn't say, wow Han is a completely different guy in this version of the film. So the very fact that you have to be a pretty detail oriented fan to even notice it confirms to me that it really doesn't change Han's character at all. The whole debate turns on a rather obsessive point about logical consistency--and not the actual impression you get when watching the film without all the fan baggage. A bit ironic given that the SW films are not exactly the paragon of logical consistency.

In any case I agree with the initial point that these are perfectly fine in SE. It's nice to have the original versions so that what I saw as a kid is preserved, and some of the changes are annoying (although I would put the dance number in ROTJ some of the less subtle CGI stuff way up higher on the list than who shoots first), but the changes don't fundamentally affect the experience of the film for those who are not invested in this whole debate.
Author
Time
Post link
I think it was ridicioulas to have Greedo shoot first.
"A Jedi can feel the force flow through him".
Author
Time
Post link
Agreed. But my point is that that is a distinct issue from how much it really matters in the great scheme of things. . . . Especially with global warming and everything going on in the Middle East.

By the way, I’ve edited my initial post and the original version technically doesn’t exist anymore. So I’m requiring folks to respond to the special edition of my post which (for now) is my definitive vision of what I want to say.
Author
Time
Post link
Out of curiousity, does this forum outright delete old threads or are they just no longer visable under defualt settings. It would be easier just to dig up an old thread. I've made this arguement way too many times now.

Vada hada, I must thank you for your politeness in asking this question. Usually it comes up under less gracious terms. Though I don't exactly agree with your sig, as I don't believe in the concept of the "true fan". It gives the impression that there are "false fans", which is something of an oxymoron.


Made for IE Forum's Episode III theme month - May 2005.

Author
Time
Post link
I have no idea what happens anymore. It used to be the case that old threads would just disappear under default settings and that you could change your timeframe settings so you could find old ones. However, I've gone back recently to find some threads that are only a week or so beyond the default view and they're completely gone. Yet some threads that are older than that are still there. I'm not sure what's going on. I think that's why people are starting what appear to be duplicate threads. Sometimes it's easier to just start a new one than wonder if the old one is still there or completely dead.

"Sometimes... dead is better."
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia'."
--Vizzini (Wallace Shawn), The Princess Bride
-------------------------
Kevin A
Webmaster/Primary Cynic
kapgar.typepad.com
kapgar.com
Author
Time
Post link
Darth Balkan:

I am well aware that my two paragraphs somewhat contradict each other. But at the same time i still feel that it changes hans character. Yes it was technically self defense in either case, but the fact that Lucas had to change it is like see, Greedo was actually threatining Han's life, it wasnt just all talk. which it well could have been. You basically have 3 versions of the scene, the OT, the SE, and the DVD version

OT - Han is 'threatened' by a bounty hunter, he's a rogue, he's used to dealing with these types of situations. He actually has the the upper hand and makes his move before Greedo even knows whats up. You can even argue that he reacted with more force than was necessary in the situation giving him that 'bad guy' character that is usually argued because he didnt know if Greedo really planned on killing him.

SE - Similar, we see that Han is already preparing for the worse, but now he's only responding to almost getting his head blown off and being damn lucky that he didnt. He Not only did he really not have the upper hand in the situation, he almost got killed by a pathetic bounty hunter that couldnt hit a target 3 feet in front of him. Now Han is just some guy that deals with unsavory people, but no one that is a real threat.

DVD - Again, Han is getting prepared to 'defend' himself, but he's still not fully in control of the situation, he's not as quick as he once was, now Greedo not only has time to get a shot off, he's almost as quick as Han. This may seem just as good as the OT version as first but remember Han is technically on the defensive, so he needs to prempt the strike in order to protect himself, not a response like it was in the SE. Greedo is probably more pathetic cause he should have been more ready to shot Han, not a rushed shot at the same time his prey fires at him, if it was Fett (or any other decent bounty hunter), you think Han would have even been able to draw his weapon let alone fire it. And again Han lucks out that his shot hit (though this can be seen as he's just more skilled and a better shot because he was able to hit is target under such a quick shot) but he still just barely gets his head blown off.

I like the OT Han personally, you get the impression that this has happened before, its not the first time he's been held at gunpoint and he's not worried because he's got it all under control. why else would he start taking out his blaster under the table before Greedo actually threatened his life. plus in the new versions he still preps his blaster, but now even with that prep he's not quick enough to off Greedo before Greedo gets a shot off.

So sorry if my previous post was unclear. Basically, imo, the reason it seems Lucas changed the scene is so its clear that Han was acting in self defense. But by doing so it changes Han's character because we dont get that confidence in Han's ability as a smuggler who deals with shady people and backstabbing on a daily basis. Hopefully this clears things up.

-Darth Simon
Why Anakin really turned to the dark side:
"Anakin, You're father I am" - Yoda
"No. No. That's not true! That's impossible!" - Anakin

0100111001101001011011100110101001100001

*touchy people disclaimer*
some or all of the above comments are partially exaggerated to convey a point, none of the comments are meant as personal attacks on anyone mentioned or reference in the above post
Author
Time
Post link
Hmmm... I may have to fool around with the settings then. there has to be an old thread I can just copy my arguments from. Maybe I sdaved one on my HDD. I tend to do that for the really long posts.


Made for IE Forum's Episode III theme month - May 2005.

Author
Time
Post link
Darth Simon:

Fair enough. The OT version is ambiguous, and Greedo's dialogue is unclear as to whether Greedo's about to kill him right then and there or let him plead his case before Jabba. I think that if the OT from the beginning had presented the scene along the lines of the SE or 2004 versions, then everybody would have enjoyed the film just the same without much impact upon how we look at Han. But at the same time, it's absolutely RIDICULOUS that GL felt he needed to change that scene once he already had it with Han shooting first. The fact of the change speaks volumes because it shows that GL himself felt the orginal was too rough and he wanted to whitewash it, make it kid friendly or whatever. And once you know that, it just becomes highly annoying and kind of insulting that we are being infantilized. So in my view, to understand this whole debate, you really have to think about it in terms of what the change symbolizes, and not simply whether, if we were all seeing the film for the first time, we would be bothered by the fact that Greedo shot first or simultaneously. Do you agree?

All of that said, I think it would be interesting to know what people said about this scene before the change was made. In the pre-SE era, did people talk about how badass Han was to shoot Greedo in cold blood? Or did that only become a focus after the change was made? When I used to watch the film as a kid, I always thought that Han was acting in self-defense (even if I didn't put it in those words!), but maybe not everyone did.

Darth Balkan
Author
Time
Post link
Darth Balkan,

Yes, i would agree with that. I too always thought it was self defense. The three takes i gave on the scenerio are basically how i see it affecting Han's character, and the first one is how i felt (to the best of my knowledge) before the SE's. As you can see in my descriptions Han's character is still mostly the same, but there is enough change present that if you know about it then its bothersome. Like you said, its RIDICULOUS that Lucas felt the need to change anything with that scene.

-Darth Simon
Why Anakin really turned to the dark side:
"Anakin, You're father I am" - Yoda
"No. No. That's not true! That's impossible!" - Anakin

0100111001101001011011100110101001100001

*touchy people disclaimer*
some or all of the above comments are partially exaggerated to convey a point, none of the comments are meant as personal attacks on anyone mentioned or reference in the above post
Author
Time
Post link
I think the most annoying thing about this change is the fact, that Han still looks like a puppet in the changed scene.
Author
Time
Post link
Han shoots first, nuff said.
"A Jedi can feel the force flow through him".
Author
Time
Post link
Wait-here's something that people keep saying that confuses me.

By saying, "Han shoots first," you're implying that someone else shoots after that. Greedo didn't shoot back, did he?

Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side

Emperor Jar-Jar
“Back when we made Star Wars, we just couldn’t make Palpatine as evil as we intended. Now, thanks to the miracles of technology, it is finally possible. Finally, I’ve created the movies that I originally imagined.” -George Lucas on the 2007 Extra Extra Special HD-DVD Edition

Author
Time
Post link
I'm saying that he should have shot first not Greedo.
"A Jedi can feel the force flow through him".
Author
Time
Post link
Quote
Originally posted by: Trooperman
By saying, "Han shoots first," you're implying that someone else shoots after that. Greedo didn't shoot back, did he?


Nope, a dead person can't shoot blasters
Author
Time
Post link
Quote
Originally posted by: vada hada
If you don't like all the star wars movies, you're not a true star wars fan.


I noticed you have a Led Zeppelin avatar... How would you feel if all the Zeppelin recordings originally existed only on cassette tape, and when the band finally got around to releasing their albums on CD instead of just remastering and improving the original sound they added new music/sounds and changed the atmosphere and feel of several tracks? If Robert Plant thought the "retouched" version of Stairway needed 5 seconds of loud, distracting cowbell in the middle of the song which version would you prefer to listen to?

I love the original Star Wars, but I'm not a fan of the changes made to the Special Editions... overall the changes are distracting and unnecessary.

Sorry for bumping an old thread, the Special Editions suck my taint.



Harrison Ford Has Pretty Much Given Up on His Son. Here's Why

Author
Time
Post link
"By saying, "Han shoots first," you're implying that someone else shoots after that. "

Uhm, no...we are comparing the original scene to the new scene, where Greedo shoots first. There's no need to intentionally miscontrue this.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>