The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 177

Mithrandir said:

DominicCobb said:

Mithrandir said:

chyron8472 said:

DominicCobb said:

darthrush said:

DominicCobb said:

darthrush said:

Collipso, I wanted to talk about the point you raised concerning the “quick, and easy path” in comparison to how the sequel trilogy handled such a topic when it came to light and dark sides of the force.

It really does present a big thematic issue for the ST, which is that Kylo Ren seems to be taking the most grueling and challenging path possible to where he gets. On the contrary it seems Rey has some pretty smooth riding. And this definitely is an issue for me. It doesn’t seem that Rey struggles much with the Dark Side unlike Luke in the OT.

But I did want to point out something I really did like about what Johnson did with the force in episode 8 and it’s how he redefined it to be more about opposing philosophizes between the light and dark rather than just a power that tempts you. Kylo simply wants to rule the galaxy as he sees fit just like Vader in ESB, and Rey feels that is not the right way to use her powers. This feels like a more realistic depiction of what the actual light and dark side would be.

I think you’re misinterpreting that Yoda quote and those characters’ journeys.

Care to elaborate more? I’m interested in all the takes on this.

First of all it must be said that we don’t know the full story behind Snoke turning Ben to the dark. But we see the power he possesses as Kylo Ren, which is far more than anything Rey does (freeze blaster bolts, people, reads their minds, etc.). If he wanted a quick and easy way besides Luke’s training regimen to unlock some crazy powers, the dark side gave him that way. Important to note too that the dark side uses pain as a fuel.

The thing is though that when Yoda said that he was referring to Luke’s situation, and though people compare Rey to Luke their journeys are actually completely different. Luke wanted to learn the force and become a Jedi like his father. To do that he had to face Vader. The quick and easy way to defeat Vader is by using anger and hate. Like almost does this, but resists. That’s the moment he truly becomes a Jedi, when he’s able to move beyond the temptation to the dark that consumed his father and cast his weapon aside.

Rey’s story is simply not analogous. The temptation to the dark for her is just not the same. She never says that she wants to become a Jedi and learn the force. The force has always been there for her (we see it in her reflexes even before she touches the saber, just like Anakin). What she desires is connection, and for someone to show her her place . It’s not about learning how to use the force, it’s about learning in what way to use it, to what end. When Luke goes into the cave, he sees his ultimate challenge, just like Rey. But for Rey, it’s not a literal physical challenge, it’s an emotional one. The quicker and easier path for her isn’t about achieving power in the force, it’s about finding someone to guide her. When Kylo offers his hand, that’s the quick and easy path. He’s saying “come with me, I can show you your place in this.” It’s right there for her, a teacher, but it’s also companionship. But instead she chooses the hard way - to say no and to forge her own path, scary as that may be.

I hope that makes sense.

I bookmarked this. Great stuff.

I’m definitely going to use it later in conversation with people I know irl.

The only thing I’d argue about DC’s analysis is that reading minds is not necessarily a dark side ability. Luke is shown to perform it on a sleeping Kylo when he “finds out” about the darkness in his mind.

First of all, I’m not 100% certain it is a dark side power (though it feels very creepy and invasive so probably), I was just saying that we see Kylo Ren has amassed great power in the force, and we assume from the dark side.

Second, that’s not really what Luke does, he sees Ben’s heart, which I imagine is a more opaque image, and then he has a vision of the future.

he seems to be doing the same movement Kylo does when he checks someone’s cell phone

I don’t know what that means.

chyron8472 said:

Mithrandir said:

DominicCobb said:

Mithrandir said:

chyron8472 said:

DominicCobb said:

darthrush said:

DominicCobb said:

darthrush said:

Collipso, I wanted to talk about the point you raised concerning the “quick, and easy path” in comparison to how the sequel trilogy handled such a topic when it came to light and dark sides of the force.

It really does present a big thematic issue for the ST, which is that Kylo Ren seems to be taking the most grueling and challenging path possible to where he gets. On the contrary it seems Rey has some pretty smooth riding. And this definitely is an issue for me. It doesn’t seem that Rey struggles much with the Dark Side unlike Luke in the OT.

But I did want to point out something I really did like about what Johnson did with the force in episode 8 and it’s how he redefined it to be more about opposing philosophizes between the light and dark rather than just a power that tempts you. Kylo simply wants to rule the galaxy as he sees fit just like Vader in ESB, and Rey feels that is not the right way to use her powers. This feels like a more realistic depiction of what the actual light and dark side would be.

I think you’re misinterpreting that Yoda quote and those characters’ journeys.

Care to elaborate more? I’m interested in all the takes on this.

First of all it must be said that we don’t know the full story behind Snoke turning Ben to the dark. But we see the power he possesses as Kylo Ren, which is far more than anything Rey does (freeze blaster bolts, people, reads their minds, etc.). If he wanted a quick and easy way besides Luke’s training regimen to unlock some crazy powers, the dark side gave him that way. Important to note too that the dark side uses pain as a fuel.

The thing is though that when Yoda said that he was referring to Luke’s situation, and though people compare Rey to Luke their journeys are actually completely different. Luke wanted to learn the force and become a Jedi like his father. To do that he had to face Vader. The quick and easy way to defeat Vader is by using anger and hate. Like almost does this, but resists. That’s the moment he truly becomes a Jedi, when he’s able to move beyond the temptation to the dark that consumed his father and cast his weapon aside.

Rey’s story is simply not analogous. The temptation to the dark for her is just not the same. She never says that she wants to become a Jedi and learn the force. The force has always been there for her (we see it in her reflexes even before she touches the saber, just like Anakin). What she desires is connection, and for someone to show her her place . It’s not about learning how to use the force, it’s about learning in what way to use it, to what end. When Luke goes into the cave, he sees his ultimate challenge, just like Rey. But for Rey, it’s not a literal physical challenge, it’s an emotional one. The quicker and easier path for her isn’t about achieving power in the force, it’s about finding someone to guide her. When Kylo offers his hand, that’s the quick and easy path. He’s saying “come with me, I can show you your place in this.” It’s right there for her, a teacher, but it’s also companionship. But instead she chooses the hard way - to say no and to forge her own path, scary as that may be.

I hope that makes sense.

I bookmarked this. Great stuff.

I’m definitely going to use it later in conversation with people I know irl.

The only thing I’d argue about DC’s analysis is that reading minds is not necessarily a dark side ability. Luke is shown to perform it on a sleeping Kylo when he “finds out” about the darkness in his mind.

First of all, I’m not 100% certain it is a dark side power (though it feels very creepy and invasive so probably), I was just saying that we see Kylo Ren has amassed great power in the force, and we assume from the dark side.

Second, that’s not really what Luke does, he sees Ben’s heart, which I imagine is a more opaque image, and then he has a vision of the future.

he seems to be doing the same movement Kylo does when he checks someone’s cell phone

I don’t know what that means.

Search your cellphone, chyron8472, you know it to be true.

Regarding the shot of Rey with the books: I didn’t even notice that when I first watched the movie; I had to have that told to me. Maybe I’m just a dummy, though.

I didn’t see it on first viewing. My wife did and she told me. So the second time, I knew it was coming and yet I still missed seeing it when it happened.

SilverWook said:

The shots don’t exactly call attention to themselves. It’s almost an easter egg.

Which is why if it is actually integral to someone’s story then it should have actually been featured more prominently than a small easter egg. I just feel it causes unnecessary confusion. But that’s just me.

I didn’t even realize Luke wasn’t there until we saw him on Ach-To in my first viewing. You’re able to be fooled by that scene because you’re invested in his character in that moment. Very nicely done.

He was using Just for Jedi there, obviously.

They do try to say that this Force projction thing can kill you, but I’ve heard that a lot of people didn’t pick up on this, so that may explain why Collipso felt no tension.

Michael Ward said:

Collipso said:

Well I wasn’t fooled by fake Luke not even for a second, but didn’t know how he was doing what he was doing until revealed.

What was he doing again? Was it stalling the First Order so that the 5% of the rebels who Poe hadn’t already gotten killed could sneak out the back even though Luke had no way of knowing that there was a way out the back, and in fact there wasn’t until Rey conveniently created one with the force when she just happened to show up in Falcon which was doubly fortunate since without the Falcon they’d all just be standing around out back waiting to be found an executed?

This was Luke’s plan? Buy the rebels 5 more minutes in hopes that the salvation that’s eluded them the whole movie will show up (now that most them are dead anyway), and of course it does because movie.

I was a moment of madness but it worked out in the end.

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

Well I wasn’t fooled by fake Luke not even for a second, but didn’t know how he was doing what he was doing until revealed. Not only the footprints, but the haircut, hair color and lightsaber totally gave it away for me. That took tension away, which made it all a bit disappointing.

What tension? That he wouldn’t die? Wouldn’t the tension of that be cut anyway when the walkers don’t leave a scratch?

Not to mention, of course, that he does die.

Presumably tension would remain in the showdown with Kylo.

But I imagine most people were fooled, as I was, although confused about Luke’s different look.

yhwx said:

I didn’t even realize Luke wasn’t there until we saw him on Ach-To in my first viewing. You’re able to be fooled by that scene because you’re invested in his character in that moment. Very nicely done.

Ditto. I noticed he looked odd, but I never figured out it was a projection until the saber goes right through him. The first shot of him levitating was incredibly powerful.

Michael Ward said:

Collipso said:

Well I wasn’t fooled by fake Luke not even for a second, but didn’t know how he was doing what he was doing until revealed.

What was he doing again? Was it stalling the First Order so that the 5% of the rebels who Poe hadn’t already gotten killed could sneak out the back even though Luke had no way of knowing that there was a way out the back, and in fact there wasn’t until Rey conveniently created one with the force when she just happened to show up in Falcon which was doubly fortunate since without the Falcon they’d all just be standing around out back waiting to be found an executed?

This was Luke’s plan? Buy the rebels 5 more minutes in hopes that the salvation that’s eluded them the whole movie will show up (now that most them are dead anyway), and of course it does because movie.

Collipso was referring to Luke doing his Force projection, but to answer your complaints, of course coincidental and unlikely things happen in movies. Otherwise it wouldn’t be interesting. All of what you mentioned is totally believeable. It wasn’t a coincidince that Rey showed up where they were. They were searching for lifeforms on the Falcon. Rey didn’t magically create an opening; the opening was already there, she just cleared the rcks from it. And what’s the problem with them having the Falcon? That’s like saying that Luke is so lucky that he had his lightsaber in Empire or else he would be totaly defenseless against Vader. Your complaints make no sense.

Michael Ward said:

yhwx said:

I didn’t even realize Luke wasn’t there until we saw him on Ach-To in my first viewing. You’re able to be fooled by that scene because you’re invested in his character in that moment. Very nicely done.

I guess. I’d agree completely if they hadn’t cheated with the dice.

Cheating? Force projection is a totally new thing. We don’t know what the rules are yet. Can’t really call it cheating.

SilverWook said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

Well I wasn’t fooled by fake Luke not even for a second, but didn’t know how he was doing what he was doing until revealed. Not only the footprints, but the haircut, hair color and lightsaber totally gave it away for me. That took tension away, which made it all a bit disappointing.

What tension? That he wouldn’t die? Wouldn’t the tension of that be cut anyway when the walkers don’t leave a scratch?

Not to mention, of course, that he does die.

Presumably tension would remain in the showdown with Kylo.

But I imagine most people were fooled, as I was, although confused about Luke’s different look.

I wasn’t fooled at all, but I was on the edge of my seat wondering what is Luke doing? and what is going to happen?.

The movie isn’t trying to fool anyone. All the evidence that something is up with Luke is on the screen. You either notice it or not. All I caught on to first time was the hair color.

Yep, I caught that too.