The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 175

darthrush said:

Michael Ward said:

yhwx said:

Question: What is Rey’s ultimate end goal in all of this?

To be part of a family?

That’s a simple way of putting it. I would say trying to discover what she should do with her newfound powers. To feel wanted and have a place is a more inert desire rather than her outward goal.

That too. I think that motivation emerged in this movie, but the family thing really dominates her arc through the first to films.

• When we meet her she’s been scratching tally marks on the wall of her room for years counting the days until her parents come back.
• Being abandoned is one of the things she see when she finds the lightsaber
• In TFA Kyloe says she sees Han has a father after he reads her mind.
• She hopes to find out who her parents are in the cave
• When she is Kylo’s prisoner and he’s taking her to Snoke, they still find it important enough to talk about her parents
• In TLJ Kylo mentions she looks for a father figure first in Han and the in Luke
• After killing Snoke and his guards the subject of her parents comes up again
• Even her relationship with Kylo seems fraternal. When she sees him with his shirt off, there’s not even the slightest hint of sexual interest. She is in fact annoyed by the sight of him shirtless. She has a strong desire to save him from the dark side as if she loves him but shows absolutely no passion or attraction for him. She regards him exactly like you would expect one to regard a brother.
  So to me, the one thing that comes up over and over again his her need to belong to a family.

adywan said:

Valheru_84 said:

All this Yoda calling lighting justification talk sounds to me like mental gymnastics 101. Yoda somehow via the force either creating, influencing, directing, etc. the lightning in TLJ just doesn’t sit right with me whatever the reasoning. Pre-ST force ghosts could not affect the physical world. Suddenly in the ST they can directly influence the force back in the real world.

Sorry but I don’t buy it anymore than I bought the ugly Yoda puppet. I also didn’t buy “crazy yoda” as he wasn’t crazy or unhinged in the OT, just a little eccentric and put on a crazy act to either test Luke in TESB or make himself seem harmless while checking out who this stranger was that just crash landed in his backyard.

Val

Yoda was joking around even when he was dying in ROTJ. He always had a jovial side. Something the PT completely got rid of with grumpy frowning Yoda. TLJ Yoda was the same Yoda we see in the OT.

And OT Force ghosts could interact physically with the real world, so why can’t they also use the force? Or is it just because it’s been introduced in the ST that’s the problem?

I don’t recall any physical interaction in the OT (apart from Obi Wan’s ludicrous ‘sitting on log’ scene which doesn’t really count IMO). The issue is the fact that ghost-Obi Wan made it plain he could not assist Luke in fighting Vader. This means either a) force-ghosts can’t interact or b) force-ghosts are jerks.

The problem with Yoda’s lightning powers is that it opens a can of worms where none needed to be. If RJ just went with what the OT had more or less established, we wouldn’t have to start inventing ways to make it all fit. Yoda could’ve just dispensed great advice - which is what FGs do - and Luke could’ve burned the tree down. It’s not a huge deal, but it does make one start to wonder why these ghostly guys didn’t intervene earlier. Why is it all hands on deck for a tree-burning but no help during the ‘Palpatine blasts Luke’ moment in ROTJ (for example)?

SilverWook said:

Shopping Maul said:

adywan said:

Valheru_84 said:

All this Yoda calling lighting justification talk sounds to me like mental gymnastics 101. Yoda somehow via the force either creating, influencing, directing, etc. the lightning in TLJ just doesn’t sit right with me whatever the reasoning. Pre-ST force ghosts could not affect the physical world. Suddenly in the ST they can directly influence the force back in the real world.

Sorry but I don’t buy it anymore than I bought the ugly Yoda puppet. I also didn’t buy “crazy yoda” as he wasn’t crazy or unhinged in the OT, just a little eccentric and put on a crazy act to either test Luke in TESB or make himself seem harmless while checking out who this stranger was that just crash landed in his backyard.

Val

Yoda was joking around even when he was dying in ROTJ. He always had a jovial side. Something the PT completely got rid of with grumpy frowning Yoda. TLJ Yoda was the same Yoda we see in the OT.

And OT Force ghosts could interact physically with the real world, so why can’t they also use the force? Or is it just because it’s been introduced in the ST that’s the problem?

I don’t recall any physical interaction in the OT (apart from Obi Wan’s ludicrous ‘sitting on log’ scene which doesn’t really count IMO). The issue is the fact that ghost-Obi Wan made it plain he could not assist Luke in fighting Vader. This means either a) force-ghosts can’t interact or b) force-ghosts are jerks.

The problem with Yoda’s lightning powers is that it opens a can of worms where none needed to be. If RJ just went with what the OT had more or less established, we wouldn’t have to start inventing ways to make it all fit. Yoda could’ve just dispensed great advice - which is what FGs do - and Luke could’ve burned the tree down. It’s not a huge deal, but it does make one start to wonder why these ghostly guys didn’t intervene earlier. Why is it all hands on deck for a tree-burning but no help during the ‘Palpatine blasts Luke’ moment in ROTJ (for example)?

😛

Nobody is inventing anything, all the visual information is in the darn movie! Stormy weather plus island dripping in Force energy means Yoda could fry Porgs if he wanted to.

Sorry, I’m not sure which ‘darn movie’ you’re referring to. Is your ROTJ photo evidence of physical interaction? I’d say no. While the notion of the ghosts appearing to sit on logs and /or Ewok fences suggests an appearance of interaction in a vague sense (as opposed to just floating like Casper) it by no means suggests that old Anakin might reach over to Luke and adjust his tie. The inference in the OT is one of non-physical intervention - sagely advice, a few choruses of ‘trust your feelings’ and so forth. Once we go down the dark path of suggesting ghosts with physical attributes, we have to wonder why they don’t just show up willy nilly and throw random crockery at Snoke, or cover Kylo’s eyes peekaboo-style while he’s duelling Rey. I just think it would have been better to preserve the ghosts as they were and expand the lore in other ways.

Frank your Majesty said:

The lightning could have hit the tree even without Yoda doing anything, just by coincidence. Yoda slightly influencing the weather do do something that could have happened naturally seems very subtle and not too far fetched to me. Now, how do you imagine ghost Obi-Wan fighting against Vader or the Emperor? What could he possible do to defeat them?

Also, so far we only see force ghosts in calm and peaceful moments, not when people are busy fighting each other and not in the presence of a strong dark side user. Maybe Obi-Wan really wasn’t able to help Luke simply because Vader’s presence prevented him.

And finally, the main role of force ghosts is to guide others, not to solve problems for them. Yoda sets the tree on fire as a lesson for Luke, to set him straight, not because Yoda hates the Jedi books (they weren’t even in there and I think Yoda knew that). Similarly, what lesson would Obi-Wan teach Luke by killing Vader for him? Facing Vader is an important station on Luke’s spiritual journey and he needs to do it alone, otherwise it would be ruined. Isn’t that similar to LOTR, where Gandalf in theory is more powerful than Sauron and could easily kill him, but he rather helps the humans to overcome their struggles themselves?

I just think the ethics become a little dodgy when a ghost that has the capacity to intervene might consider letting a student die for the sake of a religious lesson. I think it makes more sense to assume that Obi Wan is stating that he can’t help, rather than won’t help. All he can do is give the best advice he can, but he can’t pitch in.
I mean everything you’re saying is plausible. I just wish we didn’t have to have these moments in SW movies where we kind of go “eh?” and then desperately write our own canon to get around these things (Leia as sister, Padme dying during childbirth, R2 having flying abilities etc etc). That entire Yoda/Luke scene could have achieved its aims without Yoda becoming Thor.

Frank your Majesty said:

I didn’t go “eh?” when I saw TLJ.

Fair enough. I mean we all have our own subjective sense of credulity when it comes to the SW universe. Things like the Jedi afterlife and Force ghosts were all written on the run anyway, so it’s really down to the viewer which moments become ‘eh?’ moments. Even as far back as Obi sitting himself down on the log in ROTJ I was going “eh?” - so I guess that illustrates my own conservatism in this area.

SilverWook said:

Shopping Maul said:

SilverWook said:

Shopping Maul said:

adywan said:

Valheru_84 said:

All this Yoda calling lighting justification talk sounds to me like mental gymnastics 101. Yoda somehow via the force either creating, influencing, directing, etc. the lightning in TLJ just doesn’t sit right with me whatever the reasoning. Pre-ST force ghosts could not affect the physical world. Suddenly in the ST they can directly influence the force back in the real world.

Sorry but I don’t buy it anymore than I bought the ugly Yoda puppet. I also didn’t buy “crazy yoda” as he wasn’t crazy or unhinged in the OT, just a little eccentric and put on a crazy act to either test Luke in TESB or make himself seem harmless while checking out who this stranger was that just crash landed in his backyard.

Val

Yoda was joking around even when he was dying in ROTJ. He always had a jovial side. Something the PT completely got rid of with grumpy frowning Yoda. TLJ Yoda was the same Yoda we see in the OT.

And OT Force ghosts could interact physically with the real world, so why can’t they also use the force? Or is it just because it’s been introduced in the ST that’s the problem?

I don’t recall any physical interaction in the OT (apart from Obi Wan’s ludicrous ‘sitting on log’ scene which doesn’t really count IMO). The issue is the fact that ghost-Obi Wan made it plain he could not assist Luke in fighting Vader. This means either a) force-ghosts can’t interact or b) force-ghosts are jerks.

The problem with Yoda’s lightning powers is that it opens a can of worms where none needed to be. If RJ just went with what the OT had more or less established, we wouldn’t have to start inventing ways to make it all fit. Yoda could’ve just dispensed great advice - which is what FGs do - and Luke could’ve burned the tree down. It’s not a huge deal, but it does make one start to wonder why these ghostly guys didn’t intervene earlier. Why is it all hands on deck for a tree-burning but no help during the ‘Palpatine blasts Luke’ moment in ROTJ (for example)?

😛

Nobody is inventing anything, all the visual information is in the darn movie! Stormy weather plus island dripping in Force energy means Yoda could fry Porgs if he wanted to.

Sorry, I’m not sure which ‘darn movie’ you’re referring to. Is your ROTJ photo evidence of physical interaction? I’d say no. While the notion of the ghosts appearing to sit on logs and /or Ewok fences suggests an appearance of interaction in a vague sense (as opposed to just floating like Casper) it by no means suggests that old Anakin might reach over to Luke and adjust his tie. The inference in the OT is one of non-physical intervention - sagely advice, a few choruses of ‘trust your feelings’ and so forth. Once we go down the dark path of suggesting ghosts with physical attributes, we have to wonder why they don’t just show up willy nilly and throw random crockery at Snoke, or cover Kylo’s eyes peekaboo-style while he’s duelling Rey. I just think it would have been better to preserve the ghosts as they were and expand the lore in other ways.

The most recent movie.
Worth considering we’ve never seen a Force ghost appear in an artificial place like the Death Star or Cloud City, only in a natural setting. Ben probably can’t appear and interfere with the Bespin duel if he wanted to.

Manipulating the energies in an approaching storm and throwing crockery are two wholly different things.

Why Ben didn’t just appear in the Wampa cave and yell Boo! we may never know. 😛

I quite like the ‘natural’ settings’ thesis, but I think I’d still rather they merely kept force ghosts in a strictly advisory role.
Actually, you’ll probably remember that in the Marvel TESB adaptation Obi Wan’s voice appeared in the Wampa cave and said “Luke, you must think the sabre into your hand…”. Non-canon now of course, but still…

SilverWook said:

Forgot that little detail. (Yet I remember Creepy Tiny Purple Concept Art Yoda that was in early press runs.) Given the comics were done without the advantage of having seen the films that may have been an abandoned script idea.
I also seem to recall Vader hearing Luke’s call to Ben for help before he requests his shuttle.

Yes, that’s right! Wow, I had that original version (with purple Yoda). Wish I hadn’t given it up…

“A question for Rian Johnson. In Episode 8 The Last Jedi, Yoda’s force ghost makes lightning strike from a storm cloud. I mean, what are we to believe, that this is some sort of MAGIC force ghost? Boy, I really hope someone got fired for that…”

darthrush said:

SilverWook said:

So you’d torch the sacred texts without hesitation?

That’s the whole point of the scene. The books don’t matter, “Time to look past a pile of old books” Yoda says. He reminds Luke that the inert desire for every person to do good and use their powers to save others and to learn from failure is all that truly matters. Not the old dogmatic teachings of the jedi. And that is precisely the first thing I’ll be cutting out of the film is the books at the end on the falcon.

And no offense, but this is one of the reasons I probably won’t be watching any TLJ edits. Everyone wants to cut out things I thought were great.

Alongside that, I think the idea of having Luke burn down the tree is terrible.

FYI, there’s a great interview with Rian on the most recent episode of the Empire film podcast.