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Post #1157157

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The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
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Date created
11-Jan-2018, 9:57 PM

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

ExNihilo said:

DominicCobb said:

Even if Finn makes it, in a melted skimmer I can’t see how that’d do much.

And I meant there are other ways to blow open that big ass door, I’m sure.

It looked like just peripheries like the guns. Fuselage was intact just prior to Rose’s interception.
They are practically at the mouth of the cannon. I have trouble buying he wasn’t going to make it or he wasn’t going to do much damage.

I guess this really does come down to individual perception. I just didn’t see it the same way you did.

Well obviously the reaction says they could have made this clearer, as many people have misinterpreted the scene. I took it, when Poe called it off as a “suicide mission,” that it wasn’t worth it, and that’s all I needed to know and the rest could easily be assumed without being stated outright.

I don’t see what the contradiction is. Poe said it was a suicide mission…and it would have been. Says nothing about whether Finn could have accomplished the mission. That it could have been the like the Dreadnaught victory is what made Poe’s arc complete.

Whether Finn could have taken out the ram is not the point. Poe called off the mission because it wasn’t worth it, either way. That’s the point.

The back-and-forth concerned whether Finn could have made it. The point you’ve moved onto is a different point, one that basically negates your previous insistence that Finn wasn’t going to make it. I think you’re wrong on the previous point and right on this one.

I’m not sure I understand how that negates the previous point, or how I’ve even moved on from it. They are related points.

Whether Finn would have made it is a part of the larger conversation of “is Poe a coward?” and “did Rose doom the Resistance?” But what’s actually important is that Poe determined it wasn’t worth it. From there the assumptions fall into place - to me, it looked like Finn wasn’t going to make it and even if he did, it wouldn’t have done anything. On the other side, even if Finn did make it and he did blow up the ram, then it still wouldn’t have been worth it because the First Order would just break in another way.

Whichever is actually the case doesn’t change the answers to “is Poe a coward?” and “did Rose doom the Resistance?”, the answer to both of which is of course no.

The relation between the two points can be explored. The previous dialogue did not concern Poe’s arc. You’ve injected that into it now, which is totally fine, but it’s helpful when we can be clear to avoid misunderstandings.

So let’s consider the relation between (1) Finn flying into the weapon and (2) Poe calling off the mission.

If Finn flew into the weapon, that doesn’t negate Poe’s arc. It arguably makes it stronger, with Poe not only calling off the mission but feeling the sting of loss when a commander is disobeyed. If Finn is successful, then all the better when Poe says it wasn’t worth it.

Or we can imagine that it is Poe who rams Finn. Poe acknowledges that Finn could have made it but “that’s how we’re gonna win. Not fighting what we hate, saving what we love.” Followed, of course, by a kiss.

I never said Finn flying into the weapon would negate Poe’s arc. But the two things are connected. Poe understands suicide missions aren’t worth it. Finn doesn’t yet. Rose saving Finn is teaching him that lesson (“that’s how we’re gonna win…”).

I guess I’m not even sure what you’re trying to say.

The discussion was whether Finn could and should have destroyed the weapon. Then you backed into an argument on Poe’s arc. I said that I didn’t see any contradiction with what others were saying on the topic of Finn’s attempted sacrifice.

I said that your previous insistence that Finn was destined to fail was negated. Because Poe completed his arc no matter what Finn did.

Now you add another layer, seeming to suggest that there is a thematic parallel, and not that the two scenes are somehow dependent on each other, which is what I thought you were saying. Which is a pretty good argument; but you backed into it.

And I think my suggestions offer good alternative themes and lessons.

Back to the original discussion, Finn could totally have destroyed the battering ram, giving the rebels a chance to escape.

I still feel like we’re on different pages here.

I don’t see how you can talk about Finn destroying the ram or not without talking about Poe and his arc. When Poe calls off the attack, it’s because he’s wiser now and doesn’t think it’s worth it. From there you can assume that either means a) crashing into the ram won’t destroy it, or b) even if the ram is destroyed it’s not worth the loss of the rest of the skimmer pilots.

You offer alternative ways the scene could have gone, but that’s a different discussion entirely (to which I would argue different things, like this is the second movie in the trilogy and Finn has more to grow beyond sacrificing himself for a cause, and that it makes more sense narratively to have Rose save him than Poe).

You said, “When Finn gets into kamikaze mode, we see the ram start to tear his skimmer apart. It’s clear he won’t even make it, let alone blow the whole thing up.”

It’s not at all clear. We are supposed to believe it is possible. That’s what makes it heroic. I think Finn should already have disintegrated given what the laser was doing to the door. But the movie had other ideas and allowed him to get closer and closer with little damage. Also, Finn seems to have a good handle on Imperial weaponry and technology. So it was at least possible - whatever thoughts Poe was having. And it was the idea that Finn could have destroyed it that made Rose’s action meaningful too. Otherwise she would have just been stopping him from being foolish, not because love.

Yeah, I did say that, and that’s how it looks to me (at least that’s how it looked when I saw it yesterday), but I get it’s maybe not “clear” (bad word choice) and open to interpretation. The thought that he might not even make didn’t even occur to me until this past viewing, because on my other viewings I didn’t even need that interpretation. Whether he makes it or not is not what matters in that scene, it’s completely beside the point. I keep saying it, and honestly if I have to say it again I think I’ll bow out of this discussion because we’re really going in circles now, but even if Finn destroyed the ram the point is that his sacrifice wouldn’t be worth it.

For reference, here’s my thoughts on the matter from a few weeks ago:

DominicCobb said:

darthrush said:

DominicCobb said:

To me it seemed like Finn was either going to get hit before he made it, or crashing into the weapon wasn’t going to accomplish much. Basically, it seemed like he was making a sacrifice for the sake of it.

I think they made it clear that it was between him destroying the weapon and himself, or saving himself and the weapon. Rose clearly says that basically with the line of “more important to save those who we love, than defeat those who we hate”

Yeah but that line is the whole point. Attacking the weapon is a fruitless maneuver designed to hurt them (like with the Dreadnaught at the start of the film). The Resistance was in a dire situation there even if the weapon was blown. The more important thing to do was to go back to the base and figure out most importantly how to save everyone they could, however they could.

Finn thinks it is possible and that he’s being a hero. But this movie is all about what defines heroism is not these kind of big grand statements, at least not like this (you have to be careful when you make your sacrifices, not jumping at the first opportunity you get once you’ve pledged yourself officially to the cause. Rose didn’t stop him from being “foolish,” she saved him from dying.