- Time
- Post link
Everyone will do a 360.
The blue elephant in the room.
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 152
- Time
- Post link
Broom boy is Ric Olie’s grandson.
We won’t know for sure until he speaks.
- Time
- Post link
Mithrandir, those are excellent observations. And not only was TLJ constrained by TFA in unfortunate ways but TFA colors how TLJ is perceived. I think that is inevitable but it does make the the creator’s hand all the more visible and the similarities all the more glaring in TLJ. Like you, I can’t ignore that. There are the separate question of whether Johnson’s intent was always well executed and whether there weren’t some other better alternatives (albeit probably still not satisfying). I think those questions preoccupy most discussions and to many look like nitpicks or nostalgia but are actually referring back to more fundamental objections to the film.
There are also philosophical/ideological objections to TLJ as envisioned by Johnson, which you touched on previously. But that goes beyond whether the film is good or bad, as you noted. Objecting to the particular views expressed through TLJ they won’t be convincing to anyone who doesn’t already share the same point of view - and most people don’t really care!
- Time
- Post link
As soon as the gliders start their attack, the planet isn’t entirely white anymore, the red dust makes it look completely different from Hoth, so your problem is basically that there are AT-ATs in the movie.
Sounds like denial to me…
One of the Rebel soldiers as he lines up in the trench, literally picks up some of the white stuff in front of the camera and says “it’s salt”. This is a wink at the audience from RJ that he knows what we are thinking and he acknowledges that he is essentially retreading the battle of Hoth to an extent. The landscape is white (salt instead of snow and ice), there’s a Rebel base built into cliff face tunnels (instead of tunnels into the ice and mountain side), it’s protected by a massive armoured door (instead of an energy shield) which the FO / Empire renewed have to destroy in order to enter the base. All the Rebel troops jump into trenches and even the way it shows them lining up to lean against the trench wall and sighting their weapons down range is reminiscent of watching the Rebel troops do the very same in TESB. You’ve then got the AT-ATs walking towards the base, taking the place of the “chicken walker” AT-STs in this film next to the bigger “gorilla walkers” and a squadron of Rebel ‘ground speeders/gliders’(?) heading out to meet them but prove ineffective (instead of a squadron of air speeders that are at least of some effective use).
It is through and through an alternate and revamped battle of Hoth but just at the end of the movie instead of the beginning. I could tell this just from the trailer as well, I didn’t need to see the movie to know they were borrowing heavily from TESB in this scene.
So the gliders throw up red dust, changing the landscape from white to a mix of red and white - this doesn’t change all the other factors or that it was all white beforehand. If the snow on Hoth wasn’t 10s of metres thick, say instead that it was only a light covering and the air speeders passing overhead blew parts of it away and the walkers churned it up, you’d instead have a landscape mix of brown dirt and white much like the red and white in TLJ but this doesn’t change the other fact that there are so many other similarities that they are hard to miss or ignore.
See, RJ actually wants you to think he is recreating Hoth so that he can pull some more rugs and subvert more expectations that he helps lead the audience down himself until he suddenly changes direction and goes “ah ha! But it’s not Hoth, see it’s salt and it’s red underneath, it’s a big steel door instead of an energy shield, these are gliders not air speeders, etc…”
.Val
- Time
- Post link
Well, how else would a ground assault look like? Walkers have been established as an effective force, if they came up with somehting new, people would ask “where are the walkers?”. Also, trenches are a very common defense against ground attacks and if there wasn’t a rebel base, what else would be the target of a ground attack? And the planet is nothing like Hoth.
I also must have missed the scene in Empire, where the Empire blasts a huge door away, or the TIE fighters joinging the ground attack or where Han flies directly at the enemy force to sacrifize himself, or Luke facing Vader to buy his friends some time.
Umm, just have terrain that doesn’t suit walkers such as in R1 where Cassian is trying to assassinate Jyn’s father?
The TIE fighters being there and Millenium Falcon dropping in out of no where (with accompanying “WOOO!” except it’s not Han saying it this time) to save the lone ship flying in a straight line (like in a trench) as the last hope in destroying “old Death Star tech” just before it fires on the Rebel base, is an element taken straight out of ANH and mixed into the recycled TESB battle of Hoth. Having just written that out, I’ve just realised it is literally the final trench run by Luke from ANH inserted in the battle of Hoth v2 except that it’s a Death Star cannon instead of the Death Star itself and Finn never reaches it in time to destroy it before it fires because of Rose. There’s two subversions right there for you once you realise it’s the Death Star trench run v2 (or should I say v4 since it’s kinda repeated in ROTJ and again in TFA against the Star Killer Base).
TLJ is literally riddled with recycled OT scenes and themes among other elements.
.Val
- Time
- Post link
Mithrandir, those are excellent observations. And not only was TLJ constrained by TFA in unfortunate ways but TFA colors how TLJ is perceived. I think that is inevitable but it does make the the creator’s hand all the more visible and the similarities all the more glaring in TLJ. Like you, I can’t ignore that. There are the separate question of whether Johnson’s intent was always well executed and whether there weren’t some other better alternatives (albeit probably still not satisfying). I think those questions preoccupy most discussions and to many look like nitpicks or nostalgia but are actually referring back to more fundamental objections to the film.
There are also philosophical/ideological objections to TLJ as envisioned by Johnson, which you touched on previously. But that goes beyond whether the film is good or bad, as you noted. Objecting to the particular views expressed through TLJ they won’t be convincing to anyone who doesn’t already share the same point of view - and most people don’t really care!
The fact that there are now new spiritual discussions to have about Luke’s journey at all is the most interesting part of all this. For all the cringe BB8 slapstick moments there’s this whole other side to the story that I really enjoyed.
- Time
- (Edited)
- Post link
the lone ship flying in a straight line (like in a trench)
Hahaha, I’m almost willing to concede that you have a point (I don’t really care about this kind of stuff, I like TFA and it’s much more obvious about it) but this is ridiculous.
- Time
- Post link
Well, how else would a ground assault look like? Walkers have been established as an effective force, if they came up with somehting new, people would ask “where are the walkers?”. Also, trenches are a very common defense against ground attacks and if there wasn’t a rebel base, what else would be the target of a ground attack? And the planet is nothing like Hoth.
I also must have missed the scene in Empire, where the Empire blasts a huge door away, or the TIE fighters joinging the ground attack or where Han flies directly at the enemy force to sacrifize himself, or Luke facing Vader to buy his friends some time.
Umm, just have terrain that doesn’t suit walkers such as in R1 where Cassian is trying to assassinate Jyn’s father?
The TIE fighters being there and Millenium Falcon dropping in out of no where (with accompanying “WOOO!” except it’s not Han saying it this time) to save the lone ship flying in a straight line (like in a trench) as the last hope in destroying “old Death Star tech” just before it fires on the Rebel base, is an element taken straight out of ANH and mixed into the recycled TESB battle of Hoth. Having just written that out, I’ve just realised it is literally the final trench run by Luke from ANH inserted in the battle of Hoth v2 except that it’s a Death Star cannon instead of the Death Star itself and Finn never reaches it in time to destroy it before it fires because of Rose. There’s two subversions right there for you once you realise it’s the Death Star trench run v2 (or should I say v4 since it’s kinda repeated in ROTJ and again in TFA against the Star Killer Base).
TLJ is literally riddled with recycled OT scenes and themes among other elements.
This is really stretching here.
- Time
- Post link
Well, how else would a ground assault look like? Walkers have been established as an effective force, if they came up with somehting new, people would ask “where are the walkers?”. Also, trenches are a very common defense against ground attacks and if there wasn’t a rebel base, what else would be the target of a ground attack? And the planet is nothing like Hoth.
I also must have missed the scene in Empire, where the Empire blasts a huge door away, or the TIE fighters joinging the ground attack or where Han flies directly at the enemy force to sacrifize himself, or Luke facing Vader to buy his friends some time.
Umm, just have terrain that doesn’t suit walkers such as in R1 where Cassian is trying to assassinate Jyn’s father?
The TIE fighters being there and Millenium Falcon dropping in out of no where (with accompanying “WOOO!” except it’s not Han saying it this time) to save the lone ship flying in a straight line (like in a trench) as the last hope in destroying “old Death Star tech” just before it fires on the Rebel base, is an element taken straight out of ANH and mixed into the recycled TESB battle of Hoth. Having just written that out, I’ve just realised it is literally the final trench run by Luke from ANH inserted in the battle of Hoth v2 except that it’s a Death Star cannon instead of the Death Star itself and Finn never reaches it in time to destroy it before it fires because of Rose. There’s two subversions right there for you once you realise it’s the Death Star trench run v2 (or should I say v4 since it’s kinda repeated in ROTJ and again in TFA against the Star Killer Base).
TLJ is literally riddled with recycled OT scenes and themes among other elements.
.Val
I don’t thing many would deny that it does recycle things. Lucas recycled plenty for the PT. He recycles plenty within the OT. That is kind of what Star Wars does. But it is the differences that give us the unique stories. As you pointed out yourself, the elements are mixed and matched to make something different. I think everyone guessed the battle on crait would feel like Hoth in some ways from the trailers. But it isn’t like Hoth in the story, not by any stretch of the imagination. The one thing I noticed when I first saw the movie was how much of the scene in Snokes red throne room was reminiscent of the throne room scene in ROTJ. It was the same with the several encounters in the PT with Count Dooku. And no two of them are alike. The contrast of the familiar and the new is what makes this movie feel like Star Wars while not being a rehash of any one other story. TFA had too many plot points in common with ANH. Not enough for me to call it a rehash, but enough for many. This is a very different story from TESB. There are some similarities. It is the middle act, things go terribly wrong, but the heroes come out the other side to fight another day. There is Jedi training. But that is were it ends. The plots and details don’t follow any previous plot and gave us something different. Now whether that created a story you like… that is a personal preference. But it did create a unique story with character development and revelations that put the characters in a different place at the end.
- Time
- Post link
Mithrandir, those are excellent observations. And not only was TLJ constrained by TFA in unfortunate ways but TFA colors how TLJ is perceived. I think that is inevitable but it does make the the creator’s hand all the more visible and the similarities all the more glaring in TLJ. Like you, I can’t ignore that. There are the separate question of whether Johnson’s intent was always well executed and whether there weren’t some other better alternatives (albeit probably still not satisfying). I think those questions preoccupy most discussions and to many look like nitpicks or nostalgia but are actually referring back to more fundamental objections to the film.
There are also philosophical/ideological objections to TLJ as envisioned by Johnson, which you touched on previously. But that goes beyond whether the film is good or bad, as you noted. Objecting to the particular views expressed through TLJ they won’t be convincing to anyone who doesn’t already share the same point of view - and most people don’t really care!
The fact that there are now new spiritual discussions to have about Luke’s journey at all is the most interesting part of all this. For all the cringe BB8 slapstick moments there’s this whole other side to the story that I really enjoyed.
You mean slapstick moments like when R2 got eaten by a swamp creature and spit out? Or when he reactivated the hyperdrive and rolled across the Falcon hold and fell into the access hatch? Or maybe when he plugged into a power outlet?
- Time
- Post link
No I don’t mind comic relief in general but when it veers into cartoon physics like the coins or the AT-ST gag it’s too much. Overall I’m a lot more forgiving of this sort of thing compared to those who genuinely disliked the film though.
- Time
- Post link
Mithrandir, those are excellent observations. And not only was TLJ constrained by TFA in unfortunate ways but TFA colors how TLJ is perceived. I think that is inevitable but it does make the the creator’s hand all the more visible and the similarities all the more glaring in TLJ. Like you, I can’t ignore that. There are the separate question of whether Johnson’s intent was always well executed and whether there weren’t some other better alternatives (albeit probably still not satisfying). I think those questions preoccupy most discussions and to many look like nitpicks or nostalgia but are actually referring back to more fundamental objections to the film.
There are also philosophical/ideological objections to TLJ as envisioned by Johnson, which you touched on previously. But that goes beyond whether the film is good or bad, as you noted. Objecting to the particular views expressed through TLJ they won’t be convincing to anyone who doesn’t already share the same point of view - and most people don’t really care!
The fact that there are now new spiritual discussions to have about Luke’s journey at all is the most interesting part of all this. For all the cringe BB8 slapstick moments there’s this whole other side to the story that I really enjoyed.
You mean slapstick moments like when R2 got eaten by a swamp creature and spit out? Or when he reactivated the hyperdrive and rolled across the Falcon hold and fell into the access hatch? Or maybe when he plugged into a power outlet?
I would say that those examples are much more tasteful than some of the BB-8 stuff.
- Time
- Post link
Mithrandir, those are excellent observations. And not only was TLJ constrained by TFA in unfortunate ways but TFA colors how TLJ is perceived. I think that is inevitable but it does make the the creator’s hand all the more visible and the similarities all the more glaring in TLJ. Like you, I can’t ignore that. There are the separate question of whether Johnson’s intent was always well executed and whether there weren’t some other better alternatives (albeit probably still not satisfying). I think those questions preoccupy most discussions and to many look like nitpicks or nostalgia but are actually referring back to more fundamental objections to the film.
There are also philosophical/ideological objections to TLJ as envisioned by Johnson, which you touched on previously. But that goes beyond whether the film is good or bad, as you noted. Objecting to the particular views expressed through TLJ they won’t be convincing to anyone who doesn’t already share the same point of view - and most people don’t really care!
The fact that there are now new spiritual discussions to have about Luke’s journey at all is the most interesting part of all this. For all the cringe BB8 slapstick moments there’s this whole other side to the story that I really enjoyed.
You mean slapstick moments like when R2 got eaten by a swamp creature and spit out? Or when he reactivated the hyperdrive and rolled across the Falcon hold and fell into the access hatch? Or maybe when he plugged into a power outlet?
I would say that those examples are much more tasteful than some of the BB-8 stuff.
I don’t see them as different at all. Just older and more familiar. Same type of humor.
- Time
- Post link
Mithrandir, those are excellent observations. And not only was TLJ constrained by TFA in unfortunate ways but TFA colors how TLJ is perceived. I think that is inevitable but it does make the the creator’s hand all the more visible and the similarities all the more glaring in TLJ. Like you, I can’t ignore that. There are the separate question of whether Johnson’s intent was always well executed and whether there weren’t some other better alternatives (albeit probably still not satisfying). I think those questions preoccupy most discussions and to many look like nitpicks or nostalgia but are actually referring back to more fundamental objections to the film.
There are also philosophical/ideological objections to TLJ as envisioned by Johnson, which you touched on previously. But that goes beyond whether the film is good or bad, as you noted. Objecting to the particular views expressed through TLJ they won’t be convincing to anyone who doesn’t already share the same point of view - and most people don’t really care!
The fact that there are now new spiritual discussions to have about Luke’s journey at all is the most interesting part of all this. For all the cringe BB8 slapstick moments there’s this whole other side to the story that I really enjoyed.
You mean slapstick moments like when R2 got eaten by a swamp creature and spit out? Or when he reactivated the hyperdrive and rolled across the Falcon hold and fell into the access hatch? Or maybe when he plugged into a power outlet?
I would say that those examples are much more tasteful than some of the BB-8 stuff.
I don’t see them as different at all. Just older and more familiar. Same type of humor.
Sure, they’re both slapstick; but the slapstick in the OT much more restrained, and I think that’s partly due to technical limitations. Even if they wanted to have R2 hijack an AT-ST, for example, they couldn’t do it.
- Time
- (Edited)
- Post link
The more I think about it, the more I hate TLJ. Sorry, but I do. It is just my opinion.
I think in my head cannon, the OOT happens in the main universe and the PT, SE, and ST happen in an alternate universe.
- Time
- (Edited)
- Post link
The more I think about it, the more I hate TLJ. Sorry, but I do. It is just my opinion.
I think in my head cannon, the OOT happens in the main universe and the PT, SE, and ST happen in an alternate universe.
canon*.
And I thought we had this argument where you were intransigent that I couldn’t do that with Star Trek Discovery, and you couldn’t do that with the Star Trek Kelvin Universe, because the show/movies didn’t straight up say we could.
chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.
- Time
- Post link
It’s been years since I’ve read The Thrawn Trilogy. I remember liking it. The nice thing about the books is that even if they were formally “canon” they never had the same statute and recognition as the films.
The blue elephant in the room.
- Time
- Post link
The characters in the ST and their arcs are original, that’s good enough for me.
Yes, they are and, IMHO they are the best part of the ST thus far.
The new characters (Finn/Rey/Kylo) were created by George in his story treatment for the ST.
The single moment that put RJ in the position he was in when dealing with Luke in the TLJ is what happens in Starkiller base in TFA. JJ didn’t have Luke come to Han and Leia’s rescue. By having him allow Han to be killed, RJ had to have Luke be “broken” to explain it away.
You can agree or disagree with Luke’s character portrayal in TLJ. But it isn’t Rian’s fault. JJ left him nowhere to go.
- Time
- Post link
The more I think about it, the more I hate TLJ. Sorry, but I do. It is just my opinion.
I think in my head cannon, the OOT happens in the main universe and the PT, SE, and ST happen in an alternate universe.
canon*.
And I thought we had this argument where you were intransigent that I couldn’t do that with Star Trek Discovery, and you couldn’t do that with the Star Trek Kelvin Universe, because the show/movies didn’t straight up say we could.
Oh yay, this fight again.
- Time
- Post link
The more I think about it, the more I hate TLJ. Sorry, but I do. It is just my opinion.
I think in my head cannon, the OOT happens in the main universe and the PT, SE, and ST happen in an alternate universe.
canon*.
And I thought we had this argument where you were intransigent that I couldn’t do that with Star Trek Discovery, and you couldn’t do that with the Star Trek Kelvin Universe, because the show/movies didn’t straight up say we could.
I don’t want to restart that argument again. Let us just say that I agree people can make whatever head canon they want to. But head canon is head canon and official canon is official canon.
- Time
- Post link
The more I think about it, the more I hate TLJ. Sorry, but I do. It is just my opinion.
I think in my head cannon, the OOT happens in the main universe and the PT, SE, and ST happen in an alternate universe.
canon*.
And I thought we had this argument where you were intransigent that I couldn’t do that with Star Trek Discovery, and you couldn’t do that with the Star Trek Kelvin Universe, because the show/movies didn’t straight up say we could.
Oh yay, this fight again.
no.
- Time
- Post link
the lone ship flying in a straight line (like in a trench)
Hahaha, I’m almost willing to concede that you have a point (I don’t really care about this kind of stuff, I like TFA and it’s much more obvious about it) but this is ridiculous.
What’s ridiculous? Think about it a bit more Frink. I’m not saying that flying in a straight line equates to flying in a trench but why is he flying directly into the beam of this weapon about to fire? He can see parts of his ship are melting and at the rate witnessed you would not expect the ship to survive even reaching the weapon, yet he doesn’t move out of the beam to fly alongside it and still aim to crash into the centre of the weapon. He’s not weaving at all to avoid enemy fire from the walkers or TIEs (which is oddly and conveniently missing at this stage). For some odd reason he’s locked into this straight path directly towards the opening of the weapon, much like the exhaust port on the Death Star, so for all intensive purposes he might as well be traveling down a trench.
- Time
- Post link
Well, how else would a ground assault look like? Walkers have been established as an effective force, if they came up with somehting new, people would ask “where are the walkers?”. Also, trenches are a very common defense against ground attacks and if there wasn’t a rebel base, what else would be the target of a ground attack? And the planet is nothing like Hoth.
I also must have missed the scene in Empire, where the Empire blasts a huge door away, or the TIE fighters joinging the ground attack or where Han flies directly at the enemy force to sacrifize himself, or Luke facing Vader to buy his friends some time.
Umm, just have terrain that doesn’t suit walkers such as in R1 where Cassian is trying to assassinate Jyn’s father?
The TIE fighters being there and Millenium Falcon dropping in out of no where (with accompanying “WOOO!” except it’s not Han saying it this time) to save the lone ship flying in a straight line (like in a trench) as the last hope in destroying “old Death Star tech” just before it fires on the Rebel base, is an element taken straight out of ANH and mixed into the recycled TESB battle of Hoth. Having just written that out, I’ve just realised it is literally the final trench run by Luke from ANH inserted in the battle of Hoth v2 except that it’s a Death Star cannon instead of the Death Star itself and Finn never reaches it in time to destroy it before it fires because of Rose. There’s two subversions right there for you once you realise it’s the Death Star trench run v2 (or should I say v4 since it’s kinda repeated in ROTJ and again in TFA against the Star Killer Base).
TLJ is literally riddled with recycled OT scenes and themes among other elements.
This is really stretching here.
Which part is stretching? It’s all there to be seen if you’ll only look for it…
- Time
- Post link
the lone ship flying in a straight line (like in a trench)
Hahaha, I’m almost willing to concede that you have a point (I don’t really care about this kind of stuff, I like TFA and it’s much more obvious about it) but this is ridiculous.
What’s ridiculous? Think about it a bit more Frink. I’m not saying that flying in a straight line equates to flying in a trench but why is he flying directly into the beam of this weapon about to fire? He can see parts of his ship are melting and at the rate witnessed you would not expect the ship to survive even reaching the weapon, yet he doesn’t move out of the beam to fly alongside it and still aim to crash into the centre of the weapon. He’s not weaving at all to avoid enemy fire from the walkers or TIEs (which is oddly and conveniently missing at this stage). For some odd reason he’s locked into this straight path directly towards the opening of the weapon, much like the exhaust port on the Death Star, so for all intensive purposes he might as well be traveling down a trench.
Totally unrealistic and lacking in sense? Absolutely. If the nearly impenetrable door is being melted hundreds of meters away, it is total idiocy to be in the beam for a long period of time close up. But I chalk that up to dramatic effect.
While it is possible they had the DS trench in mind, it is also possible they did not. There’s really nothing to argue except that it is possible. I think it is very different, and more akin to Randy Quaid flying into a spaceship or the Hulk flying into a portal. It’s a trope we see in many different movies.
The blue elephant in the room.
- Time
- Post link
Because either Rey’s parents were on that departing ship or they’re dead and buried on Jakku. It can’t be both.
And Kylo can’t be trusted.I already asked this, but are we really sure we see Rey’s parents leave in that ship? Maybe it was just a random ship and Rey imagined her parents were in there, because that would make it easier for her.
Given Rey’s response to Ben, it’s clear that Rey has maintained a myth about her parents in her mind. Why can’t she have manufactured a memory? Not that unrealistic. Indeed, there are still Star Wars fans who maintain that Luke’s first go at the grappling hook missed when SW first hit theaters.
I would put this in my sig if I weren’t so lazy.