I think we can have a good argument about whether Rey is a Mary Sue and whether that is a bad thing. I tend to think she doesn’t really fit the bill. I think convincing people of that is far more worthwhile than shutting them out for using the word.
The blue elephant in the room.
You see how a single term shuts down your ability to appreciate what he’s saying?
To some extent we do make our own reality, which I think is well illustrated by your reaction to what is a term of literary criticism.
But it is not a term of literary criticism. It’s a way to basically say that OP women are reverse-sexist or have a misandrist agenda or whatever. Let Rey be Rey. If she’s OP for inexplicable reasons, explore that concept, but don’t attach the fact that she’s female to it. Her being female has nothing at all to do with anything, but is at the very core of where the term “Mary Sue” comes from.
The term “Mary Sue” came from the work of a female author who created a character with that name to criticize that archetype. You’re objecting to how you perceive some people seem to mis/use the term.
The argument about the definition of Mary Sue has already taken place in this thread, and not by me. My understanding is the consenus is it is a derogatory term against women, and that the gender-swapped term Gary Stu is just a furtherance of that same derogate against women, since one doesn’t use the term Gary Stu without the context of a Mary Sue. The term is part and parcel tied to the gender-related implication.
chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.
WHY IN THE NAME OF HOLY MIDICHLORIANS ARE WE DISCUSSING THE TERM MARY SUE AGAIN!!!
I think we can have a good argument about whether Rey is a Mary Sue and whether that is a bad thing. I tend to think she doesn’t really fit the bill. I think convincing people of that is far more worthwhile than shutting them out for using the word.
Just stop using the word. full stop.
Yes, no more Mary Sue. I mean it, kids. I will turn this car around, and we’re not going to Disneyland!
Where were you in '77?
Getting back to my original point, but without the deviation into sexism…
You have to look at the film holistically to understand.
To understand what? That the plot and character developments didn’t match percieved expectations?
Just because it doesn’t, that doesn’t make it bad nor does it mean hardcore Star Wars fans were intentionally jerked around.
Of course not, that would be silly. If I’m not explaining it well check out the David Stewart videos.
I’m just starting to watch [David Stewart’s] TLJ analysis, and he immediately accuses TLJ and Rian Johnson of deliberately attacking expectations of the fans.
I do not agree with that. Maybe if the problem is it doesn’t meet one’s expectations, then the solution should be to curb one’s expectations. David Stewart says that because it is Episode 8, that expectations are inherent and necessary, and that TLJ is therefore hate mail for those expectations.
I could not disagree more. And at the end of the day, we only have control over our own responses to things. If you want to like it, it does actually fit, and in a way that doesn’t make everything else suck. It doesn’t have to be a meta-commentary if you don’t make it a meta-commentary. Rian is not telling OUT purists to go f*ck themselves. If one wants to make it about that, then they’re going to, I guess. But it doesn’t have to be about that, and Rian didn’t say that it was.
If people want to enjoy it for the film that it is, and let Star Wars be Star Wars, in and of itself and its own universe, without injecting real world socio-culturally-political nonsense into it, then they can. And I would say, they should.
chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.
Star Wars was never that original to begin with. George wanted to make a Flash Gordon movie, but somebody already had the rights.
When I first saw Snoke’s rumpus room, I was expecting Ming and General Klytus to be there! 😛There is much written that nothing is truly original and that that is a good thing!
Yes, exactly. You won’t find me saying that I love TLJ’s “originality,” whatever that means (beyond saying things like “we’ve never seen that before and it’s really cool”).
TLJ is similar in many ways to what came before, just like TFA. But it’s the way they take those similar, broad strokes and make them different that is important.
Question: is Rian pronounced rIan or rEEan?
I thought it was pronounced the same as “Ryan”, which is (ususally) the former.
chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.
I’m not triggered by it. I dont tie it to nonsense gender arguments. If it’s such a distraction for you, I will forbear using the literary term in this thread. The capital letter consensus is poor substitute for discussing anything.
The blue elephant in the room.
Getting back to my original point, but without the deviation into sexism…
You have to look at the film holistically to understand.
To understand what? That the plot and character developments didn’t match percieved expectations?
Just because it doesn’t, that doesn’t make it bad nor does it mean hardcore Star Wars fans were intentionally jerked around.
Of course not, that would be silly. If I’m not explaining it well check out the David Stewart videos.
I’m just starting to watch his TLJ analysis, and he immediately accuses TLJ and Rian Johnson of deliberately attacking expectations of the fans.
I do not agree with that. Maybe if the problem is it doesn’t meet one’s expectations, then the solution should be to curb one’s expectations. David Stewart says that because it is Episode 8, that expectations are inherent and necessary, and that TLJ is therefore hate mail for those expectations.
I could not disagree more. And at the end of the day, we only have control over our own responses to things. If you want to like it, it does actually fit, and in a way that doesn’t make everything else suck. It doesn’t have to be a meta-commentary if you don’t make it a meta-commentary. Rian is not telling OUT purists to go f*ck themselves. If one wants to make it about that, then they’re going to, I guess. But it doesn’t have to be about that, and Rian didn’t say that it was.
If people want to enjoy it for the film that it is, and let Star Wars be Star Wars, in and of itself and its own universe, without injecting real world socio-culturally-political nonsense into it, then they can. And I would say, they should.
If there is any suggestion of sexism on my part, you are gravely mistaken.
The blue elephant in the room.
If one were to explore the argument that Rey is instantly OP, yet untrained, and in being so poops on the concepts that Yoda was trying to teach Luke in ESB, I can see that. But I can also see a “The Force works in mysterious ways” argument. For myself, it doesn’t bother me for her to be untrained. It’s odd, certainly, but I wouldn’t call it “ruinous to the concept of The Force” or what have you.
Really, I would just like to know why she is so powerful, and hope it is explored or explained at some point.
Getting back to my original point, but without the deviation into sexism…
You have to look at the film holistically to understand.
To understand what? That the plot and character developments didn’t match percieved expectations?
Just because it doesn’t, that doesn’t make it bad nor does it mean hardcore Star Wars fans were intentionally jerked around.
Of course not, that would be silly. If I’m not explaining it well check out the David Stewart videos.
I’m just starting to watch his TLJ analysis, and he immediately accuses TLJ and Rian Johnson of deliberately attacking expectations of the fans.
I do not agree with that. Maybe if the problem is it doesn’t meet one’s expectations, then the solution should be to curb one’s expectations. David Stewart says that because it is Episode 8, that expectations are inherent and necessary, and that TLJ is therefore hate mail for those expectations.
I could not disagree more. And at the end of the day, we only have control over our own responses to things. If you want to like it, it does actually fit, and in a way that doesn’t make everything else suck. It doesn’t have to be a meta-commentary if you don’t make it a meta-commentary. Rian is not telling OUT purists to go f*ck themselves. If one wants to make it about that, then they’re going to, I guess. But it doesn’t have to be about that, and Rian didn’t say that it was.
If people want to enjoy it for the film that it is, and let Star Wars be Star Wars, in and of itself and its own universe, without injecting real world socio-culturally-political nonsense into it, then they can. And I would say, they should.
If there is any suggestion of sexism on my part, you are gravely mistaken.
No, not yours. Mine. I was getting back to arguing against what David Stewart said and omitted the part that derailed conversation from it. I was omitting reference to (what I believe to be) his sexism, not yours.
chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.
Chewie will discover the ones that stowed away on the Falcon reproduce at an alarming rate
Well he did return in the OT, sort of. 😛
I don’t get it.
Those braided things hanging off Boba Fett’s shoulder? They’re Wookiee scalps! I thought everybody knew that.
Yeah, I remember reading that someplace ages ago, but I didn’t notice them in the pic.
There was text pointing them out. 😛
I see that now—it’s very small and blurry on my screen.
Question: is Rian pronounced rIan or rEEan?
I thought it was pronounced the same as “Ryan”, which is (ususally) the former.
Like Ryan, or like Brian without the B.
Question: is Rian pronounced rIan or rEEan?
I thought it was pronounced the same as “Ryan”, which is (ususally) the former.
Like Ryan, or like Brian without the B.
Okay. Then David Stewart was pronouncing it wrong. That’s why I asked.
Thanks.
chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.
I can’t believe I read the whole thing.
Now I have indigestion.
And I have so much indigestion that I hit submit before I put in my first comment on this board in years.
And I had to edit it.
And I’m not sure how I feel about the film. Even after 3 viewings. Even after trying to digest the various points of view in this thread and elsewhere.
If one were to explore the argument that Rey is instantly OP, yet untrained, and in being so poops on the concepts that Yoda was trying to teach Luke in ESB, I can see that. But I can also see a “The Force works in mysterious ways” argument. For myself, it doesn’t bother me for her to be untrained. It’s odd, certainly, but I wouldn’t call it “ruinous to the concept of The Force” or what have you.
Really, I would just like to know why she is so powerful, and hope it is explored or explained at some point.
Getting back to my original point, but without the deviation into sexism…
You have to look at the film holistically to understand.
To understand what? That the plot and character developments didn’t match percieved expectations?
Just because it doesn’t, that doesn’t make it bad nor does it mean hardcore Star Wars fans were intentionally jerked around.
Of course not, that would be silly. If I’m not explaining it well check out the David Stewart videos.
I’m just starting to watch his TLJ analysis, and he immediately accuses TLJ and Rian Johnson of deliberately attacking expectations of the fans.
I do not agree with that. Maybe if the problem is it doesn’t meet one’s expectations, then the solution should be to curb one’s expectations. David Stewart says that because it is Episode 8, that expectations are inherent and necessary, and that TLJ is therefore hate mail for those expectations.
I could not disagree more. And at the end of the day, we only have control over our own responses to things. If you want to like it, it does actually fit, and in a way that doesn’t make everything else suck. It doesn’t have to be a meta-commentary if you don’t make it a meta-commentary. Rian is not telling OUT purists to go f*ck themselves. If one wants to make it about that, then they’re going to, I guess. But it doesn’t have to be about that, and Rian didn’t say that it was.
If people want to enjoy it for the film that it is, and let Star Wars be Star Wars, in and of itself and its own universe, without injecting real world socio-culturally-political nonsense into it, then they can. And I would say, they should.
If there is any suggestion of sexism on my part, you are gravely mistaken.
No, not yours. Mine. I was getting back to arguing against what David Stewart said and omitted the part that derailed conversation from it. I was omitting reference to (what I believe to be) his sexism, not yours.
If one were to explore the argument, I would agree with you. And while she is inordinately powerful and seemingly impervious to dark side influences, she is lost and scared and doesn’t really know what she’s doing. That is an interesting state of affairs. It’s the fact that we have no idea why she’s so powerful that many people (including Stewart) perceive a lazy archetypal reason for it. That’s the argument we would have on the matter. So I think we would basically agree.
The blue elephant in the room.
Getting back to my original point, but without the deviation into sexism…
Oh, good grief!
[Mrebo said:]
The capital letter consensus is poor substitute for discussing anything.
Agreed.
There is no lingerie in space…
C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.
Oh, good grief!
What?
chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.
I can’t believe I read the whole thing.
Now I have indigestion.And I have so much indigestion that I hit submit before I put in my first comment on this board in years.
And I had to edit it.
And I’m not sure how I feel about the film. Even after 3 viewings. Even after trying to digest the various points of view in this thread and elsewhere.
Admiral Motti had a similar issue.
I’ve seen it twice and I share your confusion. I’m pretty down on the movie and yet I enjoyed it - even more the second time. Contrary to Wook’s good advice do I need to pay to see it a third time? Maybe. There’s a fundamental level of discomfort that is more substantial than mere nostalgia.
The blue elephant in the room.
I can’t believe I read the whole thing.
Now I have indigestion.And I have so much indigestion that I hit submit before I put in my first comment on this board in years.
And I had to edit it.
And I’m not sure how I feel about the film. Even after 3 viewings. Even after trying to digest the various points of view in this thread and elsewhere.
Admiral Motti had a similar issue.
I’ve seen it twice and I share your confusion. I’m pretty down on the movie and yet I enjoyed it - even more the second time. Contrary to Wook’s good advice do I need to pay to see it a third time? Maybe. There’s a fundamental level of discomfort that is more substantial than mere nostalgia.
My base level of discomfort comes from the fact, that the ST doesn’t attempt to connect to the rest of the saga. It simply resets the galaxy to a pre-ROTJ state, without even attempting provide any overarching story thread. It just feels tagged on.
I think we can have a good argument about whether Rey is a Mary Sue and whether that is a bad thing. I tend to think she doesn’t really fit the bill. I think convincing people of that is far more worthwhile than shutting them out for using the word.
Well let’s use all the derogatory words then!
Why is it so hard to discuss the legitimate question of Rey’s abilities without using an offensive term to do it?
Why is it so hard to discuss the legitimate question of Rey’s abilities without using an offensive term to do it?
Because there’s nothing inherently offensive about it! I’m sorry, Frink, but I really strongly disagree on this one.
There is no lingerie in space…
C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.
I can’t believe I read the whole thing.
Now I have indigestion.And I have so much indigestion that I hit submit before I put in my first comment on this board in years.
And I had to edit it.
And I’m not sure how I feel about the film. Even after 3 viewings. Even after trying to digest the various points of view in this thread and elsewhere.
Admiral Motti had a similar issue.
I’ve seen it twice and I share your confusion. I’m pretty down on the movie and yet I enjoyed it - even more the second time. Contrary to Wook’s good advice do I need to pay to see it a third time? Maybe. There’s a fundamental level of discomfort that is more substantial than mere nostalgia.
My base level of discomfort comes from the fact, that the ST doesn’t attempt to connect to the rest of the saga. It simply resets the galaxy to a pre-ROTJ state, without even attempting provide any overarching story thread. It just feels tagged on.
It resets the characters to that pre-ROTJ state too. I have to say I didn’t mind it in the case of Han and Leia, because I felt they were infinitely more interesting as post-divorce ‘scoundrel’ and ‘rebel leader’ respectively than they ever would have been as comfy Coruscant retirees. But resetting Luke to a pre-ROTJ state sits uneasily with me.
Why is it so hard to discuss the legitimate question of Rey’s abilities without using an offensive term to do it?
Because there’s nothing inherently offensive about it! I’m sorry, Frink, but I really strongly disagree on this one.
But a lot of people are on Frink’s side about this.
Fact of the matter is, if every time the term gets brought up the conversation derails into a “sexist or not?” argument, maybe it’s better if the term is never brought up.
I think we better just heed Wook’s friendly suggestion. Not worry about what side has more firepower or something.
The blue elephant in the room.
