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The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 141

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Do we really see her parents take off? Or is it just Rey’s wishful thinking?

Ceci n’est pas une signature.

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At this point I hope she does end up having important parents. I hope Snoke’s identity ends up being important. If part of these movies is about jerking fans around (which people on both sides seem to agree on) it would be the coup de grace. Or maybe it wouldn’t change anything. I picture President Snow at the end of Hunger Games, mirthful at his final victory.

The blue elephant in the room.

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Why can’t Snoke just be a powerful guy who hid in the shadows and took advantage of a power vacuum when the Emperor and Vader were killed?

TV’s Frink said:

I would put this in my sig if I weren’t so lazy.

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Mrebo said:

If part of these movies is about jerking fans around (which people on both sides seem to agree on)

What makes you think that’s true at all?

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DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

If part of these movies is about jerking fans around (which people on both sides seem to agree on)

What makes you think that’s true at all?

It is in the sense that there are plot twists…

  • You think Snoke is going to be the next Palpatine (ie. big bad who dies at the end of the third film), but he’s not.
  • You think Luke is going to mentor Rey but he doesn’t.
  • You think Leia is dead but she’s not.
  • You think someone or something on the Light Side is connecting Rey and Ren, but it’s Snoke, but it’s again not really.
  • You think Finn is going to destroy the tracker but he doesn’t and gets caught. You think there’s no way out except then BB-8 shows up in a chicken walker after you forgot he was even there.
  • You think Poe is going to save the cruiser but he doesn’t.
  • You think it’s the Vice Admiral coming through the door but it isn’t.
  • You think Luke is on the planet fighting Ren but he’s not.
  • You think Ren is going to kill Rey but he doesn’t—he does exactly what Vader wanted to do in ESB but couldn’t.

BUT that is to say only if the use of the phrase “jerking fans around” means unexpected twists for the sake of interesting storytelling, rather than it being a nicer way of saying “dicking fans over.” If it means the latter, then no, there’s no reason to assume that’s true.

TV’s Frink said:

chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.

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DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

If part of these movies is about jerking fans around (which people on both sides seem to agree on)

What makes you think that’s true at all?

This has been discussed in these pages and across the internet. It’s how the movies are playing against fan expectations, while deliberately creating an impression in line with those expectations; it’s how they’re a commentary on Star Wars itself, part of what people mean when they discuss it being “meta”. I think Mithrandir’s post better describes what I’m talking about. On YouTube, David Stewart intelligently discusses it. It’s been said many times, many ways.

The blue elephant in the room.

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chyron8472 said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

If part of these movies is about jerking fans around (which people on both sides seem to agree on)

What makes you think that’s true at all?

It is in the sense that there are plot twists…

  • You think Snoke is going to be the next Palpatine (ie. big bad who dies at the end of the third film), but he’s not.
  • You think Luke is going to mentor Rey but he doesn’t.
  • You think Leia is dead but she’s not.
  • You think someone or something on the Light Side is connecting Rey and Ren, but it’s Snoke, but it’s again not really.
  • You think Finn is going to destroy the tracker but he doesn’t and gets caught. You think there’s no way out except then BB-8 shows up in a chicken walker after you forgot he was even there.
  • You think Poe is going to save the cruiser but he doesn’t.
  • You think it’s the Vice Admiral coming through the door but it isn’t.
  • You think Luke is on the planet fighting Ren but he’s not.
  • You think Ren is going to kill Rey but he doesn’t—he does exactly what Vader wanted to do in ESB but couldn’t.

BUT that is to say only if the use of the phrase “jerking fans around” means unexpected twists for the sake of interesting storytelling, rather than it being a nicer way of saying “dicking fans over.” If it means the latter, then no, there’s no reason to assume that’s true.

Twists and surprises are part of good story telling. That doesn’t mean every twist or surprise is good storytelling. And I wish I were saying that some twists just weren’t enjoyable. You have to look at the film holistically to understand.

The blue elephant in the room.

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Mrebo said:

You have to look at the film holistically to understand.

To understand what? That the plot and character developments didn’t match percieved expectations? Just because it doesn’t, that doesn’t make it bad nor does it mean hardcore Star Wars fans were intentionally jerked around.

I think what people ought to do, if they don’t like the film but want to, is to drop their expectations and go back in with an open mind. It doesn’t have to match what we expected for it; but if you do try to match it with the rest of the series, it does actually fit—just not in the way you thought it would. It casts the rest of the series in a different light, yes, but it doesn’t abandon it or ruin it.

That is, if people want to like it, they can adjust themselves to like it and to fit it without it ruining the OT. If they don’t want to like it, which many people (not saying yourself, mind you) are happy to just hear themselves complain, then so be it.

TV’s Frink said:

chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.

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Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

If part of these movies is about jerking fans around (which people on both sides seem to agree on)

What makes you think that’s true at all?

This has been discussed in these pages and across the internet. It’s how the movies are playing against fan expectations, while deliberately creating an impression in line with those expectations; it’s how they’re a commentary on Star Wars itself, part of what people mean when they discuss it being “meta”. I think Mithrandir’s post better describes what I’m talking about. On YouTube, David Stewart intelligently discusses it. It’s been said many times, many ways.

I don’t deny that some fans think they’re being jerked around. But you just said that everyone agrees that they’re jerking people around. I don’t agree at all, and I’m certain I’m not the only one.

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chyron8472 said:

Mrebo said:

You have to look at the film holistically to understand.

To understand what? That the plot and character developments didn’t match percieved expectations?

Just because it doesn’t, that doesn’t make it bad nor does it mean hardcore Star Wars fans were intentionally jerked around.

Of course not, that would be silly. If I’m not explaining it well check out the David Stewart videos. Maybe you just won’t see it. And that’s far less interesting than you understanding but disagreeing with the argument.

The blue elephant in the room.

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chyron8472 said:

Mrebo said:

It’s been said many times, many ways.

Merry Christmas, to you.

You left out, “ya filthy animal.” And a Happy New Year to you!

The blue elephant in the room.

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Mrebo said:

chyron8472 said:

Mrebo said:

You have to look at the film holistically to understand.

To understand what? That the plot and character developments didn’t match percieved expectations?

Just because it doesn’t, that doesn’t make it bad nor does it mean hardcore Star Wars fans were intentionally jerked around.

Of course not, that would be silly. If I’m not explaining it well check out the David Stewart videos.

I’m just starting to watch his TLJ analysis, and he immediately accuses TLJ and Rian Johnson of deliberately attacking expectations of the fans.

I do not agree with that. Maybe if the problem is it doesn’t meet one’s expectations, then the solution should be to curb one’s expectations. David Stewart says that because it is Episode 8, that expectations are inherent and necessary, and that TLJ is therefore hate mail for those expectations.

I could not disagree more. And at the end of the day, we only have control over our own responses to things. If you want to like it, you might need to adjust your thinking to…

[mid-thought-JEDIT] …I’m still listening to the video while I type this and David Stewart just called Rey a Mary Sue (7:35).
Nope. Stop the video. Not listening to him anymore. Ever. She might unexpectedly, inexplicably be OP, but that doesn’t make her a Mary Sue.[/JEDIT]

…Where was I? Oh yeah. At the end of the day, we only have control over our own responses to things. If you want to like it, it does actually fit, and in a way that doesn’t make everything else suck. It doesn’t have to be a meta-commentary if you don’t make it a meta-commentary. Rian is not telling OUT purists to go f*ck themselves. If one wants to make it about that, then they’re going to, I guess. But it doesn’t have to be about that, and Rian didn’t say that it was.

If people want to enjoy it for the film that it is, and let Star Wars be Star Wars, in and of itself and its own universe, without injecting real world socio-culturally-political nonsense into it, then they can. And I would say, they should.

TV’s Frink said:

chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.

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Back in ‘83, one of the things that disappointed me about ROTJ was the sudden realisation that Lucas’ was really just making this all up as he went along. There was no ‘saga’. He hadn’t even known who the ‘other hope’ was when Yoda spoke that line in TESB. Of course this made sense in the context of Star Wars’ creation, but “Leia, Leia’s my sister” and “what I told you was true, from a certain point of view” still make me cringe to this day.

So when the prequels came along you’d think this would be an opportunity to tie it all together logically - give it some weight. Instead we got a GL who didn’t give a damn about his own continuity. Anakin was the wrong age (ditto Owen and Beru), Padme died without giving Leia those famous memories, and the saga was now peppered with dumb crap like Midichlorians, the Sith rule of two, Obi/Yoda’s absurd 20-year waiting plan, and a space-Jesus Vader whose head would be unceremoniously glued onto Sebastian Shaw’s body in the world’s worst retcon.

But we wore it right? We went full ‘cognitive dissonance mode’ and convinced ourselves that Midichlorians were okay and somehow made the Force all the richer, that Leia’s Force-sensitivity granted her the memories Luke couldn’t have, that there was a logic to hiding Luke with his uncle and letting him keep his old surname, that there were complex reasons Vader seemed to conveniently forget the ‘rule of two’ that was about to cost him his job, that Tatooine weather gives the illusion of rapid ageing etc etc. We’re fans goddammit!

I liked TFA, despite knowing full well I was being seduced by carefully orchestrated nostalgia. But I liked it largely because I knew (assumed) that all the crazy coincidences and unexplained story threads were set to culminate in a rich, detailed, fully-realised Star Wars epic. Then I read somewhere that RJ apparently had free reign to do whatever he liked with all of the plot threads.

Well surely not ‘all’ plot threads (I thought to myself) because JJ and Kasdan would have mapped it all out right?

Nope.

I don’t hate TLJ (I’m still not sure how I feel about it overall) and I do like a lot of the choices RJ made. But I don’t give a hoot what’s going to happen in IX because it’s clear the writers don’t either. Their guess is as good as mine, so it’s hard to feel invested. All I can picture is a cabal of nerds sitting around the writers’ table saying “we need an even bigger cantina in this one…” and “maybe Rey could have heat-vision this time”.

George wrote the OT on the fly and it shows. He wrote the PT - clearly without rewatching the OT - on the fly and it shows. This series is looking similarly clunky to me.

Still on the fence…

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You see how a single term shuts down your ability to appreciate what he’s saying?

To some extent we do make our own reality, which I think is well illustrated by your reaction to what is a term of literary criticism. I understand objecting that the term is overused or misused, but that’s an argument related to specific usages.

For some this is just a fun popcorn movie. For some it explores deep themes. If it’s all about seeing whatever we want, good or bad, well of course we can do that.

But then so many disagreements are rooted in just wanting to see the film as we want to see it. This relativism appeals to some more than others.

The blue elephant in the room.

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Shopping Maul said:

I can picture is a cabal of nerds sitting around the writers’ table saying […] “maybe Rey could have heat-vision this time”.

I still don’t get it. What about this movie makes it so like a Marvel superhero film? I keep seeing this, but what the heck are people talking about?

TV’s Frink said:

chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.

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Breaking news, everybody writes stuff on the fly. Some are just better at making all the pieces fit. That everybody bought into George’s master plan myth at one time means we should all buy swampland in Florida. Except me of course, as I already own some. 😉

Midichlorians were never okay.

Forum Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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Mrebo said:

chyron8472 said:

Mrebo said:

You have to look at the film holistically to understand.

To understand what? That the plot and character developments didn’t match percieved expectations?

Just because it doesn’t, that doesn’t make it bad nor does it mean hardcore Star Wars fans were intentionally jerked around.

Of course not, that would be silly. If I’m not explaining it well check out the David Stewart videos. Maybe you just won’t see it. And that’s far less interesting than you understanding but disagreeing with the argument.

The most clear “evidence” of the “jerking around” thesis is, that TLJ’s story seems to be driven by the twists, rather the twists being driven by the story. Almost every twist is a variation on an OT story thread, as if RJ wanted to avoid being accused of rehashing the OT by doing the opposite. I’ve said this before, but TLJ is not as original as many seem to believe.

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Mrebo said:

You see how a single term shuts down your ability to appreciate what he’s saying?

To some extent we do make our own reality, which I think is well illustrated by your reaction to what is a term of literary criticism.

But it is not a term of literary criticism. It’s a way to basically say that OP women are reverse-sexist or have a misandrist agenda or whatever. Let Rey be Rey. If she’s OP for inexplicable reasons, explore that concept, but don’t attach the fact that she’s female to it. Her being female has nothing at all to do with anything, but is at the very core of where the term “Mary Sue” comes from.

Calling her a Mary Sue disparages the character in a way that can not be argued against, because it is a sexist argument that combats mature, reasoned discourse.

TV’s Frink said:

chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.

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Star Wars was never that original to begin with. George wanted to make a Flash Gordon movie, but somebody already had the rights.
When I first saw Snoke’s rumpus room, I was expecting Ming and General Klytus to be there! 😛

Forum Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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chyron8472 said:

Mrebo said:

You see how a single term shuts down your ability to appreciate what he’s saying?

To some extent we do make our own reality, which I think is well illustrated by your reaction to what is a term of literary criticism.

But it is not a term of literary criticism. It’s a way to basically say that OP women are reverse-sexist or have a misandrist agenda or whatever. Let Rey be Rey. If she’s OP for inexplicable reasons, explore that concept, but don’t attach the fact that she’s female to it. Her being female has nothing at all to do with anything, but is at the very core of where the term “Mary Sue” comes from.

The term “Mary Sue” came from the work of a female author who created a character with that name to criticize that archetype. You’re objecting to how you perceive some people seem to mis/use the term.

The blue elephant in the room.

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SilverWook said:

Star Wars was never that original to begin with. George wanted to make a Flash Gordon movie, but somebody already had the rights.
When I first saw Snoke’s rumpus room, I was expecting Ming and General Klytus to be there! 😛

There is much written that nothing is truly original and that that is a good thing!

The blue elephant in the room.

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DrDre said:

Mrebo said:

chyron8472 said:

Mrebo said:

You have to look at the film holistically to understand.

To understand what? That the plot and character developments didn’t match percieved expectations?

Just because it doesn’t, that doesn’t make it bad nor does it mean hardcore Star Wars fans were intentionally jerked around.

Of course not, that would be silly. If I’m not explaining it well check out the David Stewart videos. Maybe you just won’t see it. And that’s far less interesting than you understanding but disagreeing with the argument.

Almost every twist is a variation on an OT story thread, as if RJ wanted to avoid being accused of rehashing the OT by doing the opposite.

And, you know, that’s what I really liked about it.

TV’s Frink said:

chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.

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The idea that Rian was purposefully going against fan expectations is weird and doesn’t even hold any weight considering he wrote the script (and even filmed some of the movie) before TFA was even finished.

I don’t see a problem with not mapping out the trilogy before hand. This is a legitimate way to make a trilogy (and maybe even a better way). Each movie is given its own priority (instead of merely setting up the next). This was part of the reason why they wanted different directors on each, so you’d be assured each film would go for broke.

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chyron8472 said:

Shopping Maul said:

I can picture is a cabal of nerds sitting around the writers’ table saying […] “maybe Rey could have heat-vision this time”.

I still don’t get it. What about this movie makes it so like a Marvel superhero film? I keep seeing this, but what the heck are people talking about?

I wasn’t actually making the Marvel comparison in this instance. It was merely an exaggerated dig at the idea of randomly ascribing powers to Rey on the basis of ‘coolness’ rather than implied training.