The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 122

yhwx said:

Collipso said:

But what he did to get to that point, the actions he took between RotJ and TFA were very out of character every step of the way for me, and that’s pretty hard for me to accept.

I think there could be a perfectly reasonable explanation for it. Luke snapped, just as he did in ROTJ. He was able to turn away from the dark at the last moment in both cases, but there was nobody to bail him out the second time and he was dealing with a very different situation.

Shouldn’t he have learned something though? Wasn’t it one of the biggest themes in this movie? That you fail to learn? So why are they ignoring RotJ Luke’s progress and failures?

Collipso said:

DrDre said:

yhwx said:

I was more talking about Luke and Ben’s personal conflict than anything else but you can take however you want to.

I know. I’m looking at the bigger picture.

Looking at the bigger bigger picture Luke’s arc and character from the OT were sacrificed in order to make Rey the last of the Jedi. Like, she’s literally at the end of TLJ the same thing that Luke is at the end of RotJ.

The only thing making it not the same exact situation is that in TLJ they took the opposite twist as in the OT: Vader (Ren) killed the emperor (Snoke) and is now the supreme leader of the Galaxy. And the rebels (Resistance) lost to the Empire (first order).

This bothers me.

Luke had the one mission, to recreate the Jedi Order. I’m sorry to quote something from the EU, but Obi-Wan said to Luke in the First of the Thrawn books: “you’re not the last of the old; you’re the First of the new”. And I always thought that way. I find it hard to believe that Luke would be a PT-like Jedi. Heck, I always thought that was the most important part of the overall Darth Vader arc.

And it seems to me that it’s all been sacrificed in order to make Luke Rey’s Yoda, so that she can be the last of the Jedi. Sure, he went out as a badass in maybe my favorite scene in cinema history, but I’m not sure if that makes it up for it.

I agree. It’s a major sacrifice, and I don’t believe the new characters and the very similar story line are worth it.

Collipso said:

yhwx said:

Collipso said:

But what he did to get to that point, the actions he took between RotJ and TFA were very out of character every step of the way for me, and that’s pretty hard for me to accept.

I think there could be a perfectly reasonable explanation for it. Luke snapped, just as he did in ROTJ. He was able to turn away from the dark at the last moment in both cases, but there was nobody to bail him out the second time and he was dealing with a very different situation.

Shouldn’t he have learned something though? Wasn’t it one of the biggest themes in this movie? That you fail to learn? So why are they ignoring RotJ Luke’s progress and failures?

Because Luke is old, and we need a fresh new hero now to sell, one that appeals to the new generation.

NFBisms said:

I don’t even think you have to assume Luke changed all that much within the 30+ years, tbh.

The Luke I know coming out of ROTJ would absolutely hold himself accountable for failing himself and his ideals in the way he did that night. He wouldn’t just brush off messing up like that with Ben and continue pretending to be so self-righteous.

I can understand his reaction to keep himself away from the galaxy because of his arc in 4-6 teaching him that action doesn’t always mean heroism. In his mind, his presence and the spread of the teachings that turned Vader and Kylo, endangered the galaxy and only doomed it to more of the same darkness. A cycle that would only continue repeating itself.

You see this kind of thinking with “I shouldn’t have come I’m jeopardizing the mission” when he senses Vader is on Endor with them. And you see an extension of it when he assures Leia that she is the next hope if he doesn’t make it back from the Death Star II. If he feels he can only make something worse, he feels it best to stay away, and he knows that even when he’s gone, there is still light in the galaxy - heroes that will fight for good.

“To say that because the Jedi die the light dies, is vanity.”

I’m not saying he was right to stay away. The whole idea is that he’s wrong, and that he can still be a hero. But it fits with the character for me. I don’t think he changed drastically in those 30 years.

A huge thing just put him in a drastically different place.

I’m still on the fence with TLJ and I’m probably due another viewing, however…

I think my problem with nu-Luke is this - TFA presented a Luke in exile. That’s fine and doesn’t negate the OT in any way. It even hearkens back to the alleged ‘Kurtz version’ of ROTJ, which I really like the sound of. Luke in exile would be (and I think this was JJ’s intention) looking for knowledge, a new way to counter the new threat.

However TLJ presents a Luke who has just plain quit. Given up. This just doesn’t seem to be his style. It seems to detract from the OT rather than just adding to it.

Luke in ROTJ puts down his lightsaber to face the emperor - the darkest man in the universe.

Luke in TLJ takes out his lightsaber and considers murdering his nephew in his sleep because he MAY turn to the dark side.

sounds like the same dude to me.

yhwx said:

DrDre said:

NFBisms said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Literally the whole point of Luke showing up and making a scene is inspiring hope across the galaxy.

“The Rebellion is reborn today.”

The Resistance won’t be able to fit on the Falcon for long. This is made pretty clear in the film.

Yeah, but that all depends how the FO will rule the galaxy. It’s not two major organisations backed by various systems like in the OT. In ANH many systems were rebellung against the Empire, because it was oppressing the galaxy. Now it’s hundreds of thousands of troops versus fifty people. If the FO are smart, there won’t be a Resistance ever.

Luke didn’t just inspire little kids with brooms. He inspired everyone who sympathizes with the Resistance’s plight, including, as is implied, their allies in the Outer Rim.

Sympathy that will only last if the FO are an oppressive force. The Resistance have no allies. Their socalled allies in the outer rim didn’t answer.

If the FO set up a benevolent form of government, the Resistance will never rise again, and quickly fade into obscurity. That is as decisive a victory as victories can be. It’s completely up to the FO to drop the ball.

Not technically wrong about how the FO can win, but that’s probably not how it’s going to go lol.

They’re probably going to continue being an evil empire.

I suspect they will. 😃

If the FO continues to act as it does, then some sort of rebellion will win. All oppressive regimes eventually end. Oppression works in the short term but it will eventually lose.

I agree, but it’s an odd way to end the second part of a trilogy. It closely mirrors the end of the PT, where the bad guys win, and the good guys are decimated, and retreat in hopes to fight again one day, which may be decades away.

Of course the rebels will win. Episode VIII had some “refreshing twists” but ultimately the story it sets up is literally the one where the outcome is incredibly predictable for IX

• First Order loses.
• Kylo Ren dies/is turned (probably dies not to be called RotJ rehash).

It’ll be a pleasant surprise if they come up with something really new, and I’d be impressed that they had the guts to do something new, and that they managed to think of something new.

yhwx said:

Porkins4real said:

Luke in ROTJ puts down his lightsaber to face the emperor - the darkest man in the universe.

Luke in TLJ takes out his lightsaber and considers murdering his nephew in his sleep because he MAY turn to the dark side.

sounds like the same dude to me.

You’re missing the key context in ROTJ — Luke almost considers killing Vader which would complete his turn to the darkness.

Yes, but he has that important realization, that he would become like his father, right down to the symbology of the artificial hand. He then lies down his weapon, and becomes a Jedi, thus completing his three film arc. He has passed the test so to speak.

DrDre said:

yhwx said:

DrDre said:

NFBisms said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Literally the whole point of Luke showing up and making a scene is inspiring hope across the galaxy.

“The Rebellion is reborn today.”

The Resistance won’t be able to fit on the Falcon for long. This is made pretty clear in the film.

Yeah, but that all depends how the FO will rule the galaxy. It’s not two major organisations backed by various systems like in the OT. In ANH many systems were rebellung against the Empire, because it was oppressing the galaxy. Now it’s hundreds of thousands of troops versus fifty people. If the FO are smart, there won’t be a Resistance ever.

Luke didn’t just inspire little kids with brooms. He inspired everyone who sympathizes with the Resistance’s plight, including, as is implied, their allies in the Outer Rim.

Sympathy that will only last if the FO are an oppressive force. The Resistance have no allies. Their socalled allies in the outer rim didn’t answer.

If the FO set up a benevolent form of government, the Resistance will never rise again, and quickly fade into obscurity. That is as decisive a victory as victories can be. It’s completely up to the FO to drop the ball.

Not technically wrong about how the FO can win, but that’s probably not how it’s going to go lol.

They’re probably going to continue being an evil empire.

I suspect they will. 😃

If the FO continues to act as it does, then some sort of rebellion will win. All oppressive regimes eventually end. Oppression works in the short term but it will eventually lose.

I agree, but it’s an odd way to end the second part of a trilogy. It closely mirrors the end of the PT, where the bad guys win, and the good guys are decimated, and retreat in hopes to fight again one day, which may be decades away.

Yeah, the only possible outcomes are either RotJ like outcome or RotS like outcome. There’s no other option. IX has to tie up all the loose ends, assuming there are any.

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Literally the whole point of Luke showing up and making a scene is inspiring hope across the galaxy.

“The Rebellion is reborn today.”

The Resistance won’t be able to fit on the Falcon for long. This is made pretty clear in the film.

Yeah, but that all depends how the FO will rule the galaxy. It’s not two major organisations backed by various systems like in the OT. In ANH many systems were rebellung against the Empire, because it was oppressing the galaxy. Now it’s hundreds of thousands of troops versus fifty people. If the FO are smart, there won’t be a Resistance ever.

Luke didn’t just inspire little kids with brooms. He inspired everyone who sympathizes with the Resistance’s plight, including, as is implied, their allies in the Outer Rim.

Sympathy that will only last if the FO are an oppressive force. The Resistance have no allies. Their socalled allies in the outer rim didn’t answer.

If the FO set up a benevolent form of government, the Resistance will never rise again, and quickly fade into obscurity. That is as decisive a victory as victories can be. It’s completely up to the FO to drop the ball.

First of all, the FO does not control the galaxy yet. They are in the process of picking up the pieces during the course of TLJ, that is why the quest for Luke is so dire (Rey states this outright in the film). Their ruling style is irrelevant. They are a fascist regime that favors the wealthy and corrupt. The only way the gain power is by leveling whole communities. The goal is to stop them before they can take full control.

And the allies didn’t answer because “the spark has gone out.” Luke reignited the spark. That’s literally the whole point of the climax.

yhwx said:

DrDre said:

yhwx said:

DrDre said:

NFBisms said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Literally the whole point of Luke showing up and making a scene is inspiring hope across the galaxy.

“The Rebellion is reborn today.”

The Resistance won’t be able to fit on the Falcon for long. This is made pretty clear in the film.

Yeah, but that all depends how the FO will rule the galaxy. It’s not two major organisations backed by various systems like in the OT. In ANH many systems were rebellung against the Empire, because it was oppressing the galaxy. Now it’s hundreds of thousands of troops versus fifty people. If the FO are smart, there won’t be a Resistance ever.

Luke didn’t just inspire little kids with brooms. He inspired everyone who sympathizes with the Resistance’s plight, including, as is implied, their allies in the Outer Rim.

Sympathy that will only last if the FO are an oppressive force. The Resistance have no allies. Their socalled allies in the outer rim didn’t answer.

If the FO set up a benevolent form of government, the Resistance will never rise again, and quickly fade into obscurity. That is as decisive a victory as victories can be. It’s completely up to the FO to drop the ball.

Not technically wrong about how the FO can win, but that’s probably not how it’s going to go lol.

They’re probably going to continue being an evil empire.

I suspect they will. 😃

If the FO continues to act as it does, then some sort of rebellion will win. All oppressive regimes eventually end. Oppression works in the short term but it will eventually lose.

I agree, but it’s an odd way to end the second part of a trilogy. It closely mirrors the end of the PT, where the bad guys win, and the good guys are decimated, and retreat in hopes to fight again one day, which may be decades away.

Isn’t that kind of how ESB ends? I mean, sure, the Resistance in TLJ is in far worse shape than the Rebellion ever was, but as Dom said, they still have the spark that could light the fire — the legend of Luke.

Not really the Alliance was chased from Hoth, but they managed to escape with most of their personal and material. The rest of TESB was completely focussed on our small band of heroes, and Luke’s personal journey. TLJ ends like ROTS.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Literally the whole point of Luke showing up and making a scene is inspiring hope across the galaxy.

“The Rebellion is reborn today.”

The Resistance won’t be able to fit on the Falcon for long. This is made pretty clear in the film.

Yeah, but that all depends how the FO will rule the galaxy. It’s not two major organisations backed by various systems like in the OT. In ANH many systems were rebellung against the Empire, because it was oppressing the galaxy. Now it’s hundreds of thousands of troops versus fifty people. If the FO are smart, there won’t be a Resistance ever.

Luke didn’t just inspire little kids with brooms. He inspired everyone who sympathizes with the Resistance’s plight, including, as is implied, their allies in the Outer Rim.

Sympathy that will only last if the FO are an oppressive force. The Resistance have no allies. Their socalled allies in the outer rim didn’t answer.

If the FO set up a benevolent form of government, the Resistance will never rise again, and quickly fade into obscurity. That is as decisive a victory as victories can be. It’s completely up to the FO to drop the ball.

First of all, the FO does not control the galaxy yet. They are in the process of picking up the pieces during the course of TLJ, that is why the quest for Luke is so dire (Rey states this outright in the film). Their ruling style is irrelevant. They are a fascist regime that favors the wealthy and corrupt. The only way the gain power is by leveling whole communities. The goal is to stop them before they can take full control.

And the allies didn’t answer because “the spark has gone out.” Luke reignited the spark. That’s literally the whole point of the climax.

According to the info from the film, the FO will take full control in weeks. That seems a very short time frame for our miniscule group of rebels.

yhwx said:

Collipso said:

• Kylo Ren dies/is turned (probably dies not to be called RotJ rehash).

I think there’s more for the case that Ben dies than what you said. He’s already had a couple of shots at redemption but refused them both.

I thought that ship had sailed when he killed Snoke and denied Rey’s request.

Shopping Maul said:

NFBisms said:

I don’t even think you have to assume Luke changed all that much within the 30+ years, tbh.

The Luke I know coming out of ROTJ would absolutely hold himself accountable for failing himself and his ideals in the way he did that night. He wouldn’t just brush off messing up like that with Ben and continue pretending to be so self-righteous.

I can understand his reaction to keep himself away from the galaxy because of his arc in 4-6 teaching him that action doesn’t always mean heroism. In his mind, his presence and the spread of the teachings that turned Vader and Kylo, endangered the galaxy and only doomed it to more of the same darkness. A cycle that would only continue repeating itself.

You see this kind of thinking with “I shouldn’t have come I’m jeopardizing the mission” when he senses Vader is on Endor with them. And you see an extension of it when he assures Leia that she is the next hope if he doesn’t make it back from the Death Star II. If he feels he can only make something worse, he feels it best to stay away, and he knows that even when he’s gone, there is still light in the galaxy - heroes that will fight for good.

“To say that because the Jedi die the light dies, is vanity.”

I’m not saying he was right to stay away. The whole idea is that he’s wrong, and that he can still be a hero. But it fits with the character for me. I don’t think he changed drastically in those 30 years.

A huge thing just put him in a drastically different place.

I’m still on the fence with TLJ and I’m probably due another viewing, however…

I think my problem with nu-Luke is this - TFA presented a Luke in exile. That’s fine and doesn’t negate the OT in any way. It even hearkens back to the alleged ‘Kurtz version’ of ROTJ, which I really like the sound of. Luke in exile would be (and I think this was JJ’s intention) looking for knowledge, a new way to counter the new threat.

However TLJ presents a Luke who has just plain quit. Given up. This just doesn’t seem to be his style. It seems to detract from the OT rather than just adding to it.

Luke does go to find a solution. Thing is, that solution is that the Jedi must end.

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Literally the whole point of Luke showing up and making a scene is inspiring hope across the galaxy.

“The Rebellion is reborn today.”

The Resistance won’t be able to fit on the Falcon for long. This is made pretty clear in the film.

Yeah, but that all depends how the FO will rule the galaxy. It’s not two major organisations backed by various systems like in the OT. In ANH many systems were rebellung against the Empire, because it was oppressing the galaxy. Now it’s hundreds of thousands of troops versus fifty people. If the FO are smart, there won’t be a Resistance ever.

Luke didn’t just inspire little kids with brooms. He inspired everyone who sympathizes with the Resistance’s plight, including, as is implied, their allies in the Outer Rim.

Sympathy that will only last if the FO are an oppressive force. The Resistance have no allies. Their socalled allies in the outer rim didn’t answer.

If the FO set up a benevolent form of government, the Resistance will never rise again, and quickly fade into obscurity. That is as decisive a victory as victories can be. It’s completely up to the FO to drop the ball.

First of all, the FO does not control the galaxy yet. They are in the process of picking up the pieces during the course of TLJ, that is why the quest for Luke is so dire (Rey states this outright in the film). Their ruling style is irrelevant. They are a fascist regime that favors the wealthy and corrupt. The only way the gain power is by leveling whole communities. The goal is to stop them before they can take full control.

And the allies didn’t answer because “the spark has gone out.” Luke reignited the spark. That’s literally the whole point of the climax.

According to the info from the film, the FO will take full control in weeks. That seems a very short time frame for our miniscule group of rebels.

But don’t you understand that it’s not just the “minuscule” group anymore by the end because of Luke?

yhwx said:

Collipso said:

yhwx said:

Collipso said:

• Kylo Ren dies/is turned (probably dies not to be called RotJ rehash).

I think there’s more for the case that Ben dies than what you said. He’s already had a couple of shots at redemption but refused them both.

I thought that ship had sailed when he killed Snoke and denied Rey’s request.

That’s what I said.

I’m sorry for the redundancy then.

NFBisms said:
In his mind, his presence and the spread of the teachings that turned Vader and Kylo, endangered the galaxy and only doomed it to more of the same darkness. A cycle that would only continue repeating itself.

Maybe that’s what was supposedly in Jake Skywalker’s mind (I’m not going to acknowledge that this is Luke, much like Hamill couldn’t in order to act out this character) but how does this ultimately serve the story in any way if the force just magically grants super powers to random people anyway in order to balance out power in the galaxy? Say that Rey kills Kylo in the next film and goes on to become the new Jedi Master (since Jake proclaims he is now NOT the last Jedi, completely negating his reasons for supposed self exile and what he tried to teach Rey about the folly of the dogmatic religion to the force). According to these new rules, another dark side user will simply rise and be granted these powers without any significant effort required on their part in order to counter the imbalance in only Rey then existing for the light side. And what’s not to say that Rey won’t start her own Jedi school which grows and exists for hundreds of generations, generating it’s own rules and lore revering the force with the Sith / dark side users always lurking in the shadows, waiting to strike or leading their own military faction within the galaxy? We’re right back to the start of the PT.

The mere fact that the force itself will always ensure there is balance by automatically empowering individuals to face of against each other actually means the cycle will never end. The only way it could have ended in the way Jake envisioned it would be for him to actually kill of all the dark side users (Kylo and Snoke) and then kill himself so that there is no immediate imbalance in the force. This is not to say though that another person that is force sensitive couldn’t eventually teach themselves (how else would the Jedi have come into being in the first place?) and thereforce recreate the imbalance, starting the cycle all over again.

No, these new rules create many more problems that the OT force rules ever did. The fact under the “old guard” of force lore that you needed someone to guide and teach you in the ways of the force and continue to train over years to reach any significant level of control meant that there was merit and reason in defeating Vader and the Emperor as it meant the removal of that threat and the chance of it returning for a bloody long time. Even if someone was to discover the force themselves and start self teaching, it would be generations later before their offspring became anywhere near proficient and powerful enough to start equalling the jedi / sith of old and there’s still the matter of whether they went down the light or dark side in the end. The idea that because Kylo is gaining in power on the dark side that the force will grant someone on the light side increased power simply to balance out the force sounds cool at first but really it’s pretty silly. What if Rey turns to the dark side with Kylo? Then two other random people will just pop up out of no where with new light side abilities to fight the dark side users? And if they win, what’s the point if the force will then just grant someone else instant access to the dark side since there’s now an imbalance again?

I really don’t think Johnson had much of an idea what he was really doing and the implications they had for SW based on what is already established in the OT. More so it’s becoming pretty evident Disney don’t even have some kind of overarching plan for the ST based on the below comments from RJ:

“When I was writing the movie, I was doing it while they were shooting “The Force Awakens.” So it wasn’t like I was reading all these theories online and being at my typewriter and going “Ha! Ha! Gotcha!”” (which is absolute bullshit) “It was me coming up with a story. I was writing purely from a personal reaction to the script of “The Force Awakens” and what they were shooting.”

“…the first thing I had to crack in the movie is why Luke is on that island. I had to figure out something that made sense, and you don’t know much about where’s Luke’s head is at coming out of “The Force Awakens.””

“…I also have to say I’m not writing the next one, and I’m not sure what J.J. [Abrams] and [screenwriter] Chris Terrio are going to do in the next one with Luke. But setting up possibilities for the next one, honestly, it seems much like Obi-Wan going where he did after “New Hope”…"

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/star-wars-rian-johnson-interview-about-the-last-jedi-fan-backlash-2017-12?r=US&IR=T

.Val

yhwx said:

Collipso said:

yhwx said:

Collipso said:

yhwx said:

Collipso said:

• Kylo Ren dies/is turned (probably dies not to be called RotJ rehash).

I think there’s more for the case that Ben dies than what you said. He’s already had a couple of shots at redemption but refused them both.

I thought that ship had sailed when he killed Snoke and denied Rey’s request.

That’s what I said.

I’m sorry for the redundancy then.

Sorry; just a little grumpy.

Nah don’t worry, I was just stupid