SW is nothing like the MCU. And I say that mostly liking the MCU.
I really like some MCU stuff but on the whole I’m growing tired of the well worn formula…the kind of formula TLJ jettisons. For one example I can tell ya that I was not a fan of Thor Ragnarok which people ate up and the critics loved. I thought it was quite bad…worse than JL tbh.
The Infinity War needs to change things up or risk people just tuning out.
SW is nothing like the MCU. And I say that mostly liking the MCU.
(https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/500x/75245044/it-will-be.jpg)
TLJ has set things up perfectly for the franchise to fit in the mold.
TLJ does more to show that it won’t be tbh, but I have thought it would become more MCU-like since the announcement of standalone films.
This. I honestly don’t understand the opposite mindset.
My explanation is, because you approach TLJ from the perspective of a fan of both the series, and the film itself. Having spoken with a few of my friends who are not Star Wars fans, but liked TLJ, they liked TLJ, precisely because it is a more an MCU type movie with fun characters and lots of humor, and not the typical Star Wars film. In my view it has all the hallmarks of a MCU film. Even it’s Jedi heroine is more the super hero type, having been magically given these amazing super powers, like so many of the MCU heroes, while it’s villain is irredeemably evil waiting to be dispatched, and replaced by the next villain of the month.
Dre seems to think they threw the old themes of the OT in the trash bin. I don’t think that’s true at all. They just complimented and complicated them, which I think was necessary to grow the franchise, rather than keep it stagnant and same-y (like most other franchises do).
That was a problem I had with Disney’s 2011 Winnie the Pooh.
The blue elephant in the room.
I’ve been thinking a bit more about the broad stroke differences between TLJ and the rest of the saga, particulary the OT, and why some find TLJ refreshing, while others reject it. So, for a change I’m not going to talk about Rey’s Force powers, or Luke’s characterization, but more about in-universe history, and how that affects the story.
I think it is fair to say the OT is steeped in melancholy, and powerful connections to the past. The entire premise of ANH is to defeat the evil Empire, and to return the galaxy to a previous state, the fabled Old Republic. Luke is largely driven by the legend of his father, who’s friend Obi-Wan promises to teach him about an all but forgotten religion that both he and Luke’s father were a part of. The rest of the trilogy is largly set up such that Luke needs to vanguish the enemies of old, Darth Vader, and the Emperor, and avoid the pitfalls, that caused Vader, later revealed to be his father, to turn on his friend, and join the dark side.
To a large degree TFA operates in the same way. It treats Luke Skywalker as a legend of old, that both the heroes and villains are looking for. Luke went looking for the first Jedi temple, a place presumably steeped in Jedi history. It’s hinted, that Rey has a strong connection to the past, and Kylo Ren, who’s directly related to two other legends of the past, Han and Leia, was seduced to the dark side by some mysterious larger than life old anti-Yoda figure. Both Rey and Kylo Ren are struggling with their past, and the film ends with Kylo severing one of the links to his past by killing a past legend, while Rey connects with it by finding a past legend.
TLJ completely breaks with this Star Wars tradition. It actively deflates the past by telling us the history and legends we cherish are not as great as we want to believe. It actively cuts almost all ties to the past by killing off the remaining classic heroes (Leia technically not in the film), and even the links to the past TFA introduced. The mysterious Snoke is unceremoniously cast aside, and the secret of Rey’s past is, that she has no past, at least not one that’s relevant to her future. The family connection between good and evil that drove the OT and TFA is all but ignored, and then finally killed for good, when Leia gives up on her son, and Luke dies. What remains is a conflict between new heroes and new villains, that either killed their past, or don’t really have one.
It’s a bold move, which is sadly undercut by a strict adherence to the OT aesthetic and the OT’s basic premise of an Empire versus a small band of rebels. The question is why did the creators and by extension Disney decide to reboot the franchise, whilst also severing most connections to the past? My theory is, that it was done to make Star Wars more accessible to the general audience. Most of us hardcore fans will see the movies anyway. I know I probably will, despite my lack of enthousiasm. Anyone without much knowledge of Star Wars history will be able to see and enjoy episode IX. It’s starting point is similar to episode IV. There’s an evil Empire led by an evil maniac, a struggling rebellion led by an aspiring Jedi, and it looks like it’s part of the Star Wars brand. You need not know more.
It IS a bold move and one in which I think needed to happen for SW to evolve.
I might agree, if the bold move was used to create a new story, and new Star Wars lore but it wasn’t. It’s a reboot, and one that strips Star Wars from much of the deeper layers and themes, that made it stand out from the average blockbuster, in my opinion of course.
I think the themes and layers of TLJ are deeper and a little more meaningful than anything in both the OT and PT, especially in how the philosophical ideas tackled are all about our understanding of those previously established themes. It may be more of a meta-deconstruction of the themes, rather than a continuing re-affirmation of them, but they are still there and are still needed to be understood.
Well to me deconstructing and understanding are two very different things. IMO TLJ deconstructs the themes of the previous films not to provide understanding, but to devalue them. It’s thesis is not just that these themes are far less relevant going forward, but weren’t all that important in the first place, punctuated by Yoda’s page turner remark. The fact that the legends of old are used (or abused depending on your point of view) to transmit this message is also in of itself a clear attempt at devaluation, since evdn they are made to adhere to the new order.
Well, the two aren’t really disparate concepts, right? You can’t begin to deconstruct or devalue effectively without understanding what it is you’re deconstructing or devaluing in the first place. I wasn’t saying that TLJ was trying to provide clarity to the original trilogy’s themes - I do think TLJ and the originals are thematically different, just that they don’t conflict or clash like you say. TLJ can’t take away from the originals in my mind, because what it has to say, while different, is dependent on also understanding what the originals had to say and what it was that drove those films.
I think it’s disingenuous to say TLJ is an average blockbuster or that anything it has to say is on that level of Transformers, or Geostorm, or Avengers. If anything, it’s a little too heady for its own good. I definitely think it has pacing and tonal issues, as well as one too many plot threads that clearly have muddled what it was trying to say in the end, but its intentions and fundamental ideas have more depth than just “insert SW brand here.” It can’t be that, as well as trying to burn down Star Wars traditions, at the same time. It’s trying to be so much more, and whether or not it succeeds is just a matter of opinion.
And while something can be said about how it uses an evil Empire and plucky rebellion, as well as TIEs, X-Wings, and lightsabers, that’s all superficial when what informs and drives those things are clearly different enough to not be “Star Wars” to many people thematically.
Yes, but the whole point is, that the general audience doesn’t care about the themes that drove Star Wars in the past. In my view the current owners of the franchise feel Star Wars’ themes and connections to the past is a stumbling block for the general audience to connect with the material. In order to facilitate the growth of the potential market of these films, these themes and historic connections need to be simplified or removed. Star Wars is to be molded in the image of other franchises like the MCU universe, where connections between films are superficial at best. Anyone can watch a future MCU film, and enjoy them on their own terms, without having seen past entries. So will it be for Star Wars.
My point was that TLJ went out of its way to be alienating and have more depth than Star Wars as a franchise typically has. I don’t think the thematic differences = dumber, because the film was way too philosophical and dependent on understanding the previous concepts to be “simplified.” What it tackles about shame, hero worship, legacy, regret, and failure - the general human condition - is something that the typically morally binary Star Wars hadn’t even touched until now. But, like I said, it only touches those things in the context of us initially believing what we have about Star Wars as a universe.
Sure, this dumb hypothetical general audience doesn’t care about anything below surface level, but that’s the whole point. They could do anything with the Star Wars brand and it wouldn’t matter. Why would choosing to do and include things that makes Porkins4real’s 5-year-old ask “why Luke do that” and fans like you angry mean wider MCU-like appeal? The MCU is successful because it taps into that general audience AND die-hard comic book nerds, not one over the other. TLJ tried (imo) maybe way too hard to not be mass-appeal and bit itself in the ass critically. I don’t think the idea that Kennedy or Johnson thought doing that was a way to simplify things for a mass audience makes sense when you look at it.
Star Wars and Jaws were the two movies that heralded the blockbuster as a market/genre in the first place. Adhering to what Star Wars has been doing since 1977 would be what you described.
TLJ was only alienating to a group of die-hard fans. The critics and general audience ate it up. Many fans seem to be happy with it also. That’s about as general as the appeal can get. Like I said, I predict that there will be much less connective tissue between Star Wars films going forward. Individual directors may rise above the occassion, and provide depth and nuance, but to Star Wars as a brand and business, that won’t matter. Star Wars will become the MCU with space ships and lightsabers. Star Wars is hardly new and original anymore. However, for me personally something essential has been lost.
It has a 51% audience score on RT, which is as close to 100% divided as you can get. And aside from probably inaccurate and irrelevant website ratings systems, you can’t honestly believe TLJ is only getting flack from die-hard fans, right? It is intensely polarizing all over the internet - you’ve definitely observed that - and for me personally, it is irl as well.
(Tbh, I don’t like the assertion that only this upper tier of fan is who doesn’t like TLJ. Anyone can dislike this movie, not just the “die-hard fans.” Anyone can have problems with it, not just “woke” fans. )
That’s all beside the point, though. How does TLJ of all films support the claim that it will become MCU with ships and lightsabers? I don’t even disagree that that’s what KK is trying to do, with standalones coming out every year, but TLJ of all things is what proves that? If anything, it shows me that they’re willing to take risks that the MCU wouldn’t take. It can’t be so thematically incongruous and subversive to the SW formula for you, but also too safe and simplified.
Well, I believe the imdb rating of 7.6 by over 200,000 users is more representative of the general audience rating. This seems in line with most well recieved blockbusters.
Having read the reviews my take is that most of the harsh criticism against TLJ is directed at it’s use of the classic characters, how it fits in the larger Star Wars universe, and to what extend it adheres to established canon. All of these criticisms are typical for die-hard fans, not the general audience. Two more general criricisms I have read, are pacing issues, bad comedy, and useless story threads, but I don’t believe these are at the heart of the most vehement objections to the film.
I don’t agree this film is only criticized by die-hard fans.
I don’t know. The movie poll among the general audience gave the film A. The imdb rating is well above average, and hasn’t been called into question like the RT audience rating. Many audience reviews are filled with such blind hatred, they must come from fans, because the general audience wouldn’t care that much. From a general audience perspective I would say TLJ is an entertaining film with some flaws, and the 7.6 rating is not unreasonable.
I agree, if it wasn’t Episode 8 of the SW saga and just a standalone film based in another universe where they’re using magic / sorcery instead of the force (which might as well be the case in TLJ anyway) then that’s about the score I would have given it.
Even as a SW movie, based on just visuals and audio I would give it a 10/10. It’s when you consider everything else that it goes down the drain for me.
.Val
Ps. That is some quote history you’ve got going there, took me something like 20 seconds of continuous scrolling to get to the bottom of it all on the phone 😛
SW is nothing like the MCU. And I say that mostly liking the MCU.
(https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/500x/75245044/it-will-be.jpg)
TLJ has set things up perfectly for the franchise to fit in the mold.
TLJ does more to show that it won’t be tbh, but I have thought it would become more MCU-like since the announcement of standalone films.
This. I honestly don’t understand the opposite mindset.
My explanation is, because you approach TLJ from the perspective of a fan of both the series, and the film itself. Having spoken with a few of my friends who are not Star Wars fans, but liked TLJ, they liked TLJ, precisely because it is a more an MCU type movie with fun characters and lots of humor, and not the typical Star Wars film. In my view it has all the hallmarks of a MCU film. Even it’s Jedi heroine is more the super hero type, having been magically given these amazing super powers, like so many of the MCU heroes, while it’s villain is irredeemably evil waiting to be dispatched, and replaced by the next villain of the month.
Well obviously I disagree completely, but especially about the villain. The MCU is of course infamous for its shit villains. But Kylo Ren is quite possibly (and I say this with sincerity) already one of the all time great villains.
SW is nothing like the MCU. And I say that mostly liking the MCU.
(https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/500x/75245044/it-will-be.jpg)
TLJ has set things up perfectly for the franchise to fit in the mold.
TLJ does more to show that it won’t be tbh, but I have thought it would become more MCU-like since the announcement of standalone films.
From a fan perspective I would agree, from the general audience perspective not so much, at least not from the point of view of where the story ends, and episode IX will begin. Episode IX will be the film with the least connections to the past and it’s overarching themes of all Star Wars films. This is why it is the perfect setup for the MCU treatment in my view.
Or it could be a culmination of all Star Wars has been, as the new ending point for the saga. We don’t know yet. The themes of TLJ already play off of the rest of the series, all that JJ has to do is make where those themes disconnect connect.
The idea of Ben being lost forever, could easily be turned back around using the new human-sided lens of morality that TLJ gives us. If it was saying that pure good and compassion won’t turn him back like it did for Vader, then TLJ lays the groundwork for the theme: redemption only comes if you want it. Kylo has rejected Han, Leia, and Rey at this point. Whether or not he is redeemed, something IX could tackle that expands upon the idea of redemption that was set up in the OT, is that doing evil is a choice. Not a magical cancer. Which was true for Vader, even when Anakin thought “It was too late for him,” he was still able to do one last act of good.
And that’s just one way they could do it. The fact is, there’s like one movie left in the saga. Whether or not SW becomes MCU through its standalones, TLJ leaves a lot in the way for the disparate themes to interplay with each other for the last installment. The plot may be superficially empire vs rebels, but it’s informed with new layers. They’re not going to throw away the old themes for the last movie when all the set up for it was about examining those ideas through a more human lens.
Basically:
PT (Here’s a tragic story)*
OT (Here’s a pretty story)**
ST (Here’s why those stories are important)
*can ignore
**resolves tragic story
…
That said, of course Lucasfilm is trying to do an MCU-style cinematic universe going forward. I just don’t think TLJ is proof of that. More like an outlier.
I’ve been thinking a bit more about the broad stroke differences between TLJ and the rest of the saga, particulary the OT, and why some find TLJ refreshing, while others reject it. So, for a change I’m not going to talk about Rey’s Force powers, or Luke’s characterization, but more about in-universe history, and how that affects the story.
I think it is fair to say the OT is steeped in melancholy, and powerful connections to the past. The entire premise of ANH is to defeat the evil Empire, and to return the galaxy to a previous state, the fabled Old Republic. Luke is largely driven by the legend of his father, who’s friend Obi-Wan promises to teach him about an all but forgotten religion that both he and Luke’s father were a part of. The rest of the trilogy is largly set up such that Luke needs to vanguish the enemies of old, Darth Vader, and the Emperor, and avoid the pitfalls, that caused Vader, later revealed to be his father, to turn on his friend, and join the dark side.
To a large degree TFA operates in the same way. It treats Luke Skywalker as a legend of old, that both the heroes and villains are looking for. Luke went looking for the first Jedi temple, a place presumably steeped in Jedi history. It’s hinted, that Rey has a strong connection to the past, and Kylo Ren, who’s directly related to two other legends of the past, Han and Leia, was seduced to the dark side by some mysterious larger than life old anti-Yoda figure. Both Rey and Kylo Ren are struggling with their past, and the film ends with Kylo severing one of the links to his past by killing a past legend, while Rey connects with it by finding a past legend.
TLJ completely breaks with this Star Wars tradition. It actively deflates the past by telling us the history and legends we cherish are not as great as we want to believe. It actively cuts almost all ties to the past by killing off the remaining classic heroes (Leia technically not in the film), and even the links to the past TFA introduced. The mysterious Snoke is unceremoniously cast aside, and the secret of Rey’s past is, that she has no past, at least not one that’s relevant to her future. The family connection between good and evil that drove the OT and TFA is all but ignored, and then finally killed for good, when Leia gives up on her son, and Luke dies. What remains is a conflict between new heroes and new villains, that either killed their past, or don’t really have one.
It’s a bold move, which is sadly undercut by a strict adherence to the OT aesthetic and the OT’s basic premise of an Empire versus a small band of rebels. The question is why did the creators and by extension Disney decide to reboot the franchise, whilst also severing most connections to the past? My theory is, that it was done to make Star Wars more accessible to the general audience. Most of us hardcore fans will see the movies anyway. I know I probably will, despite my lack of enthousiasm. Anyone without much knowledge of Star Wars history will be able to see and enjoy episode IX. It’s starting point is similar to episode IV. There’s an evil Empire led by an evil maniac, a struggling rebellion led by an aspiring Jedi, and it looks like it’s part of the Star Wars brand. You need not know more.
It IS a bold move and one in which I think needed to happen for SW to evolve.
I might agree, if the bold move was used to create a new story, and new Star Wars lore but it wasn’t. It’s a reboot, and one that strips Star Wars from much of the deeper layers and themes, that made it stand out from the average blockbuster, in my opinion of course.
I think the themes and layers of TLJ are deeper and a little more meaningful than anything in both the OT and PT, especially in how the philosophical ideas tackled are all about our understanding of those previously established themes. It may be more of a meta-deconstruction of the themes, rather than a continuing re-affirmation of them, but they are still there and are still needed to be understood.
Well to me deconstructing and understanding are two very different things. IMO TLJ deconstructs the themes of the previous films not to provide understanding, but to devalue them. It’s thesis is not just that these themes are far less relevant going forward, but that they weren’t all that important in the first place, punctuated by Yoda’s page turner remark. The fact that the legends of old are used (or abused depending on your point of view) to transmit this message is also in of itself a clear attempt at devaluation, since even they are made to adhere to the new order.
I think it’s disingenuous to say TLJ is an average blockbuster or that anything it has to say is on that level of Transformers, or Geostorm, or Avengers. If anything, it’s a little too heady for its own good. I definitely think it has pacing and tonal issues, as well as one too many plot threads that clearly have muddled what it was trying to say in the end, but its intentions and fundamental ideas have more depth than just “insert SW brand here.” It can’t be that, as well as trying to burn down Star Wars traditions, at the same time. It’s trying to be so much more, and whether or not it succeeds is just a matter of opinion.
And while something can be said about how it uses an evil Empire and plucky rebellion, as well as TIEs, X-Wings, and lightsabers, that’s all superficial when what informs and drives those things are clearly different enough to not be “Star Wars” to many people thematically.
Yes, but the whole point is, that the general audience doesn’t care about the themes that drove Star Wars in the past. In my view the current owners of the franchise feel Star Wars’ themes and connections to the past are a stumbling block for the general audience to connect with the material. In order to facilitate the growth of the potential market of these films, these themes and historic connections need to be simplified or removed.
Then the people running the franchise are DUMB. My kids, nieces and nephews all love the OT more than anything that came after, they were born 30+ years after ANH, yet they love it. I had 5-year-old ask “why luke doing that?”. They don’t need to worry about growing the audience, and ignoring what made the franchise so popular is not the way to do it.
Disney should know better. Look at the lineups they have for crappy rides that have been around for 60 years. Why? they still work and multigenerations experienced them in their youth and enjoy seeing their kids enjoy them.
Disney should know better? I think the box office for TFA and TLJ shows they understand how to make money just fine. And of course that’s their goal, they’re a giant corporation.
My daughters saw the OT before TFA, and they really like the OT. But they love TFA. Rey is their hero, not Luke. The OT has basically like one female character.
They have to play the long game. The movies are the catalyst for a lot of money making enterprises. So my comment about the DC universe. Good numbers out of the gate as fans wanted to see these stories as movies forever, but then numbers turned bad.
It would not have taken much to give something to the long to fans of SW and still build new appeal.
Crapping all over Luke was a bad move. He may not be the hero to your daughters, but for many he was and he deserved better.If they continue this trend - one day your daughters get to enjoy a movie where Rey turns out to be piece of crap who tries to kill babies in her spare time.
This is ludicrous. I know the movie hurt you bad but come on.
Also to a large percentage of us who grew up with Luke, TLJ Luke was fantastic. “Crapping all over Luke” is just your opinion.
Just a ludicrous as Lukes story base on his ROFTJ character. IF they can take Luke have luke make such a turn, why not Rey in the future? Nothing sacrosanct anymore in the SW universe.
Wasn’t the whole idea of the movie that Luke can still be a hero in spite of his failures? I think that’s an important message, because what if some kid fucks up and feels he can’t come back from that? I know I’ve had those moments growing up, and it’s cool that TLJ tries to show that you aren’t defined by your flaws, but the good that you do and can do. It’s a very human approach to the hero, and one that I think is important.
“No one’s ever really gone…”
I think that would have been a great point, but his failings were not true to who he was. The last Luke we saw, would risk and do anything for his friends and believed there was light in even the (second) darkest person in the universe. This luke actively ignored his friends and those needing his help and considered murdering his nephew in his sleep because saw the POTENTIAL of darkness.
Sure 30 years has passed, but that is still a massive leap in who this person is. If the movie wants to make that leap it needs to actually support it to make it believable. But we don’t see that and the leap does not make sense. Within the movie, no new bad thing has happened since ROTJ to Luke before he considers murdering his nephew in cold blood. From everything we know of Luke and Jedi, that moment seems inconceivable to me.
Given that the one single moment is what triggers much of the movie’s events I see it as a pretty big flaw. Now if you remove the context of the other movies than Luke and his story is easier to buy in TLJ
His failure was not being true to who he was, or thought he was.
Whether or not it was developed enough is obviously in the eye of the beholder, but to feel let down and disappointed in where we find Luke at the start of this movie is the point.
not a Jedi apologist or a Jedi hater but a secret third thing
SW is nothing like the MCU. And I say that mostly liking the MCU.
(https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/500x/75245044/it-will-be.jpg)
TLJ has set things up perfectly for the franchise to fit in the mold.
TLJ does more to show that it won’t be tbh, but I have thought it would become more MCU-like since the announcement of standalone films.
This. I honestly don’t understand the opposite mindset.
My explanation is, because you approach TLJ from the perspective of a fan of both the series, and the film itself. Having spoken with a few of my friends who are not Star Wars fans, but liked TLJ, they liked TLJ, precisely because it is a more an MCU type movie with fun characters and lots of humor, and not the typical Star Wars film. In my view it has all the hallmarks of a MCU film. Even it’s Jedi heroine is more the super hero type, having been magically given these amazing super powers, like so many of the MCU heroes, while it’s villain is irredeemably evil waiting to be dispatched, and replaced by the next villain of the month.
Well obviously I disagree completely, but especially about the villain. The MCU is of course infamous for its shit villains. But Kylo Ren is quite possibly (and I say this with sincerity) already one of the all time great villains.
I also thought he was a great villain in TFA and to a somewhat lesser degree in TLJ, but much of the complexity, conflict, and family history that made him interesting to me have been removed when he replaced Snoke, and was given up upon by Luke and his mother. He’s now irredeemably evil it seems, ready to be dispatched.
SW is nothing like the MCU. And I say that mostly liking the MCU.
(https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/500x/75245044/it-will-be.jpg)
TLJ has set things up perfectly for the franchise to fit in the mold.
TLJ does more to show that it won’t be tbh, but I have thought it would become more MCU-like since the announcement of standalone films.
This. I honestly don’t understand the opposite mindset.
My explanation is, because you approach TLJ from the perspective of a fan of both the series, and the film itself. Having spoken with a few of my friends who are not Star Wars fans, but liked TLJ, they liked TLJ, precisely because it is a more an MCU type movie with fun characters and lots of humor, and not the typical Star Wars film. In my view it has all the hallmarks of a MCU film. Even it’s Jedi heroine is more the super hero type, having been magically given these amazing super powers, like so many of the MCU heroes, while it’s villain is irredeemably evil waiting to be dispatched, and replaced by the next villain of the month.
Well obviously I disagree completely, but especially about the villain. The MCU is of course infamous for its shit villains. But Kylo Ren is quite possibly (and I say this with sincerity) already one of the all time great villains.
I also thought he was a great villain in TFA and to a somewhat lesser degree in TLJ, but much of the complexity, conflict, and family history that made him interesting to me have been removed when he replaced Snoke, and was given up upon by Luke and his mother. He’s now irredeemably evil it seems, ready to be dispatched.
I don’t see how getting rid of Snoke makes him anything but more interesting, and I think on the second part, you’re misreading it entirely.
SW is nothing like the MCU. And I say that mostly liking the MCU.
(https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/500x/75245044/it-will-be.jpg)
TLJ has set things up perfectly for the franchise to fit in the mold.
TLJ does more to show that it won’t be tbh, but I have thought it would become more MCU-like since the announcement of standalone films.
This. I honestly don’t understand the opposite mindset.
My explanation is, because you approach TLJ from the perspective of a fan of both the series, and the film itself. Having spoken with a few of my friends who are not Star Wars fans, but liked TLJ, they liked TLJ, precisely because it is a more an MCU type movie with fun characters and lots of humor, and not the typical Star Wars film. In my view it has all the hallmarks of a MCU film. Even it’s Jedi heroine is more the super hero type, having been magically given these amazing super powers, like so many of the MCU heroes, while it’s villain is irredeemably evil waiting to be dispatched, and replaced by the next villain of the month.
Well obviously I disagree completely, but especially about the villain. The MCU is of course infamous for its shit villains. But Kylo Ren is quite possibly (and I say this with sincerity) already one of the all time great villains.
I also thought he was a great villain in TFA and to a somewhat lesser degree in TLJ, but much of the complexity, conflict, and family history that made him interesting to me have been removed when he replaced Snoke, and was given up upon by Luke and his mother. He’s now irredeemably evil it seems, ready to be dispatched.
I don’t see how getting rid of Snoke makes him anything but more interesting, and I think on the second part, you’re misreading it entirely.
Kylo Ren is Darth Vader in reverse. He starts out as the complex, and conflicted villain, but as the trilogy progresses, he becomes more, and more the one note evil villain Vader was in ANH. As a villain his arc is more or less completed. He’s rejected his family, killed the past, and taken his master’s place. He now rules the galaxy. All his family is dead. Since I don’t expect he will be redeemed in episode IX, the only thing left for him to do is die.
The Star Wars universe flourish, if it is dependent on a select number of heroes and villains, and by extension a
limited number of actors. It needs to expand like the MCU, and contain a host of different heroes, and villains. Kylo Ren will only be one of many villains in the SCU, the Star Wars Cinematic Universe.
SW is nothing like the MCU. And I say that mostly liking the MCU.
(https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/500x/75245044/it-will-be.jpg)
TLJ has set things up perfectly for the franchise to fit in the mold.
TLJ does more to show that it won’t be tbh, but I have thought it would become more MCU-like since the announcement of standalone films.
This. I honestly don’t understand the opposite mindset.
My explanation is, because you approach TLJ from the perspective of a fan of both the series, and the film itself. Having spoken with a few of my friends who are not Star Wars fans, but liked TLJ, they liked TLJ, precisely because it is a more an MCU type movie with fun characters and lots of humor, and not the typical Star Wars film. In my view it has all the hallmarks of a MCU film. Even it’s Jedi heroine is more the super hero type, having been magically given these amazing super powers, like so many of the MCU heroes, while it’s villain is irredeemably evil waiting to be dispatched, and replaced by the next villain of the month.
Well obviously I disagree completely, but especially about the villain. The MCU is of course infamous for its shit villains. But Kylo Ren is quite possibly (and I say this with sincerity) already one of the all time great villains.
I also thought he was a great villain in TFA and to a somewhat lesser degree in TLJ, but much of the complexity, conflict, and family history that made him interesting to me have been removed when he replaced Snoke, and was given up upon by Luke and his mother. He’s now irredeemably evil it seems, ready to be dispatched.
Interestingly, I see Kylo as more interesting and fleshed out. I think he is still very conflicted as he wants to get rid of the old ways entirely but he also didn’t pull the trigger on Leia.
SW is nothing like the MCU. And I say that mostly liking the MCU.
(https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/500x/75245044/it-will-be.jpg)
TLJ has set things up perfectly for the franchise to fit in the mold.
TLJ does more to show that it won’t be tbh, but I have thought it would become more MCU-like since the announcement of standalone films.
This. I honestly don’t understand the opposite mindset.
My explanation is, because you approach TLJ from the perspective of a fan of both the series, and the film itself. Having spoken with a few of my friends who are not Star Wars fans, but liked TLJ, they liked TLJ, precisely because it is a more an MCU type movie with fun characters and lots of humor, and not the typical Star Wars film. In my view it has all the hallmarks of a MCU film. Even it’s Jedi heroine is more the super hero type, having been magically given these amazing super powers, like so many of the MCU heroes, while it’s villain is irredeemably evil waiting to be dispatched, and replaced by the next villain of the month.
Well obviously I disagree completely, but especially about the villain. The MCU is of course infamous for its shit villains. But Kylo Ren is quite possibly (and I say this with sincerity) already one of the all time great villains.
I also thought he was a great villain in TFA and to a somewhat lesser degree in TLJ, but much of the complexity, conflict, and family history that made him interesting to me have been removed when he replaced Snoke, and was given up upon by Luke and his mother. He’s now irredeemably evil it seems, ready to be dispatched.
I don’t see how getting rid of Snoke makes him anything but more interesting, and I think on the second part, you’re misreading it entirely.
Kylo Ren is Darth Vader in reverse. He starts out as the complex, and conflicted villain, but as the trilogy progresses, he becomes more, and more the one note evil villain Vader was in ANH. As a villain his arc seems completed. He’s rejected his family, killed the past, and taken his master’s place. All his family is dead. Since I don’t expect he will be redeemed in episode IX, the only thing left for him to do is die.
Snoke is not dead. Come back 2 years from now and you’ll see I was correct.
SW is nothing like the MCU. And I say that mostly liking the MCU.
(https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/500x/75245044/it-will-be.jpg)
TLJ has set things up perfectly for the franchise to fit in the mold.
TLJ does more to show that it won’t be tbh, but I have thought it would become more MCU-like since the announcement of standalone films.
This. I honestly don’t understand the opposite mindset.
My explanation is, because you approach TLJ from the perspective of a fan of both the series, and the film itself. Having spoken with a few of my friends who are not Star Wars fans, but liked TLJ, they liked TLJ, precisely because it is a more an MCU type movie with fun characters and lots of humor, and not the typical Star Wars film. In my view it has all the hallmarks of a MCU film. Even it’s Jedi heroine is more the super hero type, having been magically given these amazing super powers, like so many of the MCU heroes, while it’s villain is irredeemably evil waiting to be dispatched, and replaced by the next villain of the month.
Well obviously I disagree completely, but especially about the villain. The MCU is of course infamous for its shit villains. But Kylo Ren is quite possibly (and I say this with sincerity) already one of the all time great villains.
I also thought he was a great villain in TFA and to a somewhat lesser degree in TLJ, but much of the complexity, conflict, and family history that made him interesting to me have been removed when he replaced Snoke, and was given up upon by Luke and his mother. He’s now irredeemably evil it seems, ready to be dispatched.
I don’t see how getting rid of Snoke makes him anything but more interesting, and I think on the second part, you’re misreading it entirely.
Kylo Ren is Darth Vader in reverse. He starts out as the complex, and conflicted villain, but as the trilogy progresses, he becomes more, and more the one note evil villain Vader was in ANH. As a villain his arc seems completed. He’s rejected his family, killed the past, and taken his master’s place. All his family is dead. Since I don’t expect he will be redeemed in episode IX, the only thing left for him to do is die.
Snoke is not dead. Come back 2 years from now and you’ll see I was correct.
I’ve read some ideas that he’s the prime Jedi. Don’t know where that lore originated but it sounds cool. Well see if you’re right.
SW is nothing like the MCU. And I say that mostly liking the MCU.
(https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/500x/75245044/it-will-be.jpg)
TLJ has set things up perfectly for the franchise to fit in the mold.
TLJ does more to show that it won’t be tbh, but I have thought it would become more MCU-like since the announcement of standalone films.
This. I honestly don’t understand the opposite mindset.
My explanation is, because you approach TLJ from the perspective of a fan of both the series, and the film itself. Having spoken with a few of my friends who are not Star Wars fans, but liked TLJ, they liked TLJ, precisely because it is a more an MCU type movie with fun characters and lots of humor, and not the typical Star Wars film. In my view it has all the hallmarks of a MCU film. Even it’s Jedi heroine is more the super hero type, having been magically given these amazing super powers, like so many of the MCU heroes, while it’s villain is irredeemably evil waiting to be dispatched, and replaced by the next villain of the month.
Well obviously I disagree completely, but especially about the villain. The MCU is of course infamous for its shit villains. But Kylo Ren is quite possibly (and I say this with sincerity) already one of the all time great villains.
I also thought he was a great villain in TFA and to a somewhat lesser degree in TLJ, but much of the complexity, conflict, and family history that made him interesting to me have been removed when he replaced Snoke, and was given up upon by Luke and his mother. He’s now irredeemably evil it seems, ready to be dispatched.
I don’t see how getting rid of Snoke makes him anything but more interesting, and I think on the second part, you’re misreading it entirely.
Kylo Ren is Darth Vader in reverse. He starts out as the complex, and conflicted villain, but as the trilogy progresses, he becomes more, and more the one note evil villain Vader was in ANH. As a villain his arc is more or less completed. He’s rejected his family, killed the past, and taken his master’s place. He now rules the galaxy. All his family is dead. Since I don’t expect he will be redeemed in episode IX, the only thing left for him to do is die.
You’re missing the nuance. Kylo Ren is now the Supreme Leader and is supposedly all ready to destroy everything and take control of whatever is rest. But there’s more going on there. He thinks he knows what he wants, but it’s not that simple. When the dice disappear and Rey shuts the door on him, it’s clear that what he has now is really nothing at all. He’s just as conflicted as ever, if not more so.
Episode IX I think I’m a clone now…
Where were you in '77?
SW is nothing like the MCU. And I say that mostly liking the MCU.
(https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/500x/75245044/it-will-be.jpg)
TLJ has set things up perfectly for the franchise to fit in the mold.
TLJ does more to show that it won’t be tbh, but I have thought it would become more MCU-like since the announcement of standalone films.
This. I honestly don’t understand the opposite mindset.
My explanation is, because you approach TLJ from the perspective of a fan of both the series, and the film itself. Having spoken with a few of my friends who are not Star Wars fans, but liked TLJ, they liked TLJ, precisely because it is a more an MCU type movie with fun characters and lots of humor, and not the typical Star Wars film. In my view it has all the hallmarks of a MCU film. Even it’s Jedi heroine is more the super hero type, having been magically given these amazing super powers, like so many of the MCU heroes, while it’s villain is irredeemably evil waiting to be dispatched, and replaced by the next villain of the month.
Well obviously I disagree completely, but especially about the villain. The MCU is of course infamous for its shit villains. But Kylo Ren is quite possibly (and I say this with sincerity) already one of the all time great villains.
I also thought he was a great villain in TFA and to a somewhat lesser degree in TLJ, but much of the complexity, conflict, and family history that made him interesting to me have been removed when he replaced Snoke, and was given up upon by Luke and his mother. He’s now irredeemably evil it seems, ready to be dispatched.
I don’t see how getting rid of Snoke makes him anything but more interesting, and I think on the second part, you’re misreading it entirely.
Kylo Ren is Darth Vader in reverse. He starts out as the complex, and conflicted villain, but as the trilogy progresses, he becomes more, and more the one note evil villain Vader was in ANH. As a villain his arc is more or less completed. He’s rejected his family, killed the past, and taken his master’s place. He now rules the galaxy. All his family is dead. Since I don’t expect he will be redeemed in episode IX, the only thing left for him to do is die.
You’re missing the nuance. Kylo Ren is now the Supreme Leader and is supposedly all ready to destroy everything and take control of whatever is rest. But there’s more going on there. He thinks he knows what he wants, but it’s not that simple. When the dice disappear and Rey shuts the door on him, it’s clear that what he has now is really nothing at all. He’s just as conflicted as ever, if not more so.
We’ll see in episode IX.
Episode IX I think I’m a clone now…
Ooh, I like where this is going. It was a clone Luke who sacrificed himself in TLJ. Clone Luke’s ‘damage’ was due to struggling with his identity as Not Real Luke. Real Luke has been imprisoned all this time and arrives triumphantly in the beginning of EIX…
The blue elephant in the room.
SW is nothing like the MCU. And I say that mostly liking the MCU.
(https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/500x/75245044/it-will-be.jpg)
TLJ has set things up perfectly for the franchise to fit in the mold.
TLJ does more to show that it won’t be tbh, but I have thought it would become more MCU-like since the announcement of standalone films.
This. I honestly don’t understand the opposite mindset.
My explanation is, because you approach TLJ from the perspective of a fan of both the series, and the film itself. Having spoken with a few of my friends who are not Star Wars fans, but liked TLJ, they liked TLJ, precisely because it is a more an MCU type movie with fun characters and lots of humor, and not the typical Star Wars film. In my view it has all the hallmarks of a MCU film. Even it’s Jedi heroine is more the super hero type, having been magically given these amazing super powers, like so many of the MCU heroes, while it’s villain is irredeemably evil waiting to be dispatched, and replaced by the next villain of the month.
Well obviously I disagree completely, but especially about the villain. The MCU is of course infamous for its shit villains. But Kylo Ren is quite possibly (and I say this with sincerity) already one of the all time great villains.
I also thought he was a great villain in TFA and to a somewhat lesser degree in TLJ, but much of the complexity, conflict, and family history that made him interesting to me have been removed when he replaced Snoke, and was given up upon by Luke and his mother. He’s now irredeemably evil it seems, ready to be dispatched.
I don’t see how getting rid of Snoke makes him anything but more interesting, and I think on the second part, you’re misreading it entirely.
Kylo Ren is Darth Vader in reverse. He starts out as the complex, and conflicted villain, but as the trilogy progresses, he becomes more, and more the one note evil villain Vader was in ANH. As a villain his arc is more or less completed. He’s rejected his family, killed the past, and taken his master’s place. He now rules the galaxy. All his family is dead. Since I don’t expect he will be redeemed in episode IX, the only thing left for him to do is die.
You’re missing the nuance. Kylo Ren is now the Supreme Leader and is supposedly all ready to destroy everything and take control of whatever is rest. But there’s more going on there. He thinks he knows what he wants, but it’s not that simple. When the dice disappear and Rey shuts the door on him, it’s clear that what he has now is really nothing at all. He’s just as conflicted as ever, if not more so.
I didn’t think about that. Nice one!
What’s the internal temperature of a TaunTaun? Luke warm.
I think that we will only understand this ST trilogy after IX comes out and we have the complete picture. Until we see the full arc, we won’t know that they are trying to do.
Just like VIII would explain Rey’s magical force powers?
Lol…although how is he a descendant of a human from future earth? I thought that was Jabba.
I am glad you got a chuckle as that was my intent…
There was SW book that followed a group of 5000 humans from Earth in the 25th Century who fall into a black hole or some other plot device and end up in a galaxy far away in a time long long (long) ago. The first Solo was part of the 5000 humans. The humans then go on to populate the galaxy and are the source of all human we see in SW.
Well, this book was never finished nor released, and thus not part of Legends or Canon, thankfully for us all.
Not enough people read the EU.
Just like VIII would explain Rey’s magical force powers?
Part of what yotsuya is saying is that when all is said and done, the things that the ST is actually about will be clear, rather than what fans think the ST should be about or want it to be about.
Just like VIII would explain Rey’s magical force powers?
All force powers are magical.
Just like VIII would explain Rey’s magical force powers?
Part of what yotsuya is saying is that when all is said and done, the things that the ST is actually about will be clear, rather than what fans think the ST should be about or want it to be about.
I can see that.
If not for Rey I think I’d love the ST. Makes me sad that I don’t like her as much.
Just like VIII would explain Rey’s magical force powers?
All force powers are magical.
I meant how she magically acquired them.
Just like VIII would explain Rey’s magical force powers?
I didn’t realize the middle movie of a trilogy was required to provide all the answers.
