SW is nothing like the MCU. And I say that mostly liking the MCU.
(https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/500x/75245044/it-will-be.jpg)
TLJ has set things up perfectly for the franchise to fit in the mold.
TLJ does more to show that it won’t be tbh, but I have thought it would become more MCU-like since the announcement of standalone films.
From a fan perspective I would agree, from the general audience perspective not so much, at least not from the point of view of where the story ends, and episode IX will begin. Episode IX will be the film with the least connections to the past and it’s overarching themes of all Star Wars films. This is why it is the perfect setup for the MCU treatment in my view.
Or it could be a culmination of all Star Wars has been, as the new ending point for the saga. We don’t know yet. The themes of TLJ already play off of the rest of the series, all that JJ has to do is make where those themes disconnect connect.
The idea of Ben being lost forever, could easily be turned back around using the new human-sided lens of morality that TLJ gives us. If it was saying that pure good and compassion won’t turn him back like it did for Vader, then TLJ lays the groundwork for the theme: redemption only comes if you want it. Kylo has rejected Han, Leia, and Rey at this point. Whether or not he is redeemed, something IX could tackle that expands upon the idea of redemption that was set up in the OT, is that doing evil is a choice. Not a magical cancer. Which was true for Vader, even when Anakin thought “It was too late for him,” he was still able to do one last act of good.
And that’s just one way they could do it. The fact is, there’s like one movie left in the saga. Whether or not SW becomes MCU through its standalones, TLJ leaves a lot in the way for the disparate themes to interplay with each other for the last installment. The plot may be superficially empire vs rebels, but it’s informed with new layers. They’re not going to throw away the old themes for the last movie when all the set up for it was about examining those ideas through a more human lens.
Basically:
PT (Here’s a tragic story)*
OT (Here’s a pretty story)**
ST (Here’s why those stories are important)
*can ignore
**resolves tragic story
…
That said, of course Lucasfilm is trying to do an MCU-style cinematic universe going forward. I just don’t think TLJ is proof of that. More like an outlier.
I’ve been thinking a bit more about the broad stroke differences between TLJ and the rest of the saga, particulary the OT, and why some find TLJ refreshing, while others reject it. So, for a change I’m not going to talk about Rey’s Force powers, or Luke’s characterization, but more about in-universe history, and how that affects the story.
I think it is fair to say the OT is steeped in melancholy, and powerful connections to the past. The entire premise of ANH is to defeat the evil Empire, and to return the galaxy to a previous state, the fabled Old Republic. Luke is largely driven by the legend of his father, who’s friend Obi-Wan promises to teach him about an all but forgotten religion that both he and Luke’s father were a part of. The rest of the trilogy is largly set up such that Luke needs to vanguish the enemies of old, Darth Vader, and the Emperor, and avoid the pitfalls, that caused Vader, later revealed to be his father, to turn on his friend, and join the dark side.
To a large degree TFA operates in the same way. It treats Luke Skywalker as a legend of old, that both the heroes and villains are looking for. Luke went looking for the first Jedi temple, a place presumably steeped in Jedi history. It’s hinted, that Rey has a strong connection to the past, and Kylo Ren, who’s directly related to two other legends of the past, Han and Leia, was seduced to the dark side by some mysterious larger than life old anti-Yoda figure. Both Rey and Kylo Ren are struggling with their past, and the film ends with Kylo severing one of the links to his past by killing a past legend, while Rey connects with it by finding a past legend.
TLJ completely breaks with this Star Wars tradition. It actively deflates the past by telling us the history and legends we cherish are not as great as we want to believe. It actively cuts almost all ties to the past by killing off the remaining classic heroes (Leia technically not in the film), and even the links to the past TFA introduced. The mysterious Snoke is unceremoniously cast aside, and the secret of Rey’s past is, that she has no past, at least not one that’s relevant to her future. The family connection between good and evil that drove the OT and TFA is all but ignored, and then finally killed for good, when Leia gives up on her son, and Luke dies. What remains is a conflict between new heroes and new villains, that either killed their past, or don’t really have one.
It’s a bold move, which is sadly undercut by a strict adherence to the OT aesthetic and the OT’s basic premise of an Empire versus a small band of rebels. The question is why did the creators and by extension Disney decide to reboot the franchise, whilst also severing most connections to the past? My theory is, that it was done to make Star Wars more accessible to the general audience. Most of us hardcore fans will see the movies anyway. I know I probably will, despite my lack of enthousiasm. Anyone without much knowledge of Star Wars history will be able to see and enjoy episode IX. It’s starting point is similar to episode IV. There’s an evil Empire led by an evil maniac, a struggling rebellion led by an aspiring Jedi, and it looks like it’s part of the Star Wars brand. You need not know more.
It IS a bold move and one in which I think needed to happen for SW to evolve.
I might agree, if the bold move was used to create a new story, and new Star Wars lore but it wasn’t. It’s a reboot, and one that strips Star Wars from much of the deeper layers and themes, that made it stand out from the average blockbuster, in my opinion of course.
I think the themes and layers of TLJ are deeper and a little more meaningful than anything in both the OT and PT, especially in how the philosophical ideas tackled are all about our understanding of those previously established themes. It may be more of a meta-deconstruction of the themes, rather than a continuing re-affirmation of them, but they are still there and are still needed to be understood.
Well to me deconstructing and understanding are two very different things. IMO TLJ deconstructs the themes of the previous films not to provide understanding, but to devalue them. It’s thesis is not just that these themes are far less relevant going forward, but that they weren’t all that important in the first place, punctuated by Yoda’s page turner remark. The fact that the legends of old are used (or abused depending on your point of view) to transmit this message is also in of itself a clear attempt at devaluation, since even they are made to adhere to the new order.
I think it’s disingenuous to say TLJ is an average blockbuster or that anything it has to say is on that level of Transformers, or Geostorm, or Avengers. If anything, it’s a little too heady for its own good. I definitely think it has pacing and tonal issues, as well as one too many plot threads that clearly have muddled what it was trying to say in the end, but its intentions and fundamental ideas have more depth than just “insert SW brand here.” It can’t be that, as well as trying to burn down Star Wars traditions, at the same time. It’s trying to be so much more, and whether or not it succeeds is just a matter of opinion.
And while something can be said about how it uses an evil Empire and plucky rebellion, as well as TIEs, X-Wings, and lightsabers, that’s all superficial when what informs and drives those things are clearly different enough to not be “Star Wars” to many people thematically.
Yes, but the whole point is, that the general audience doesn’t care about the themes that drove Star Wars in the past. In my view the current owners of the franchise feel Star Wars’ themes and connections to the past are a stumbling block for the general audience to connect with the material. In order to facilitate the growth of the potential market of these films, these themes and historic connections need to be simplified or removed.
Then the people running the franchise are DUMB. My kids, nieces and nephews all love the OT more than anything that came after, they were born 30+ years after ANH, yet they love it. I had 5-year-old ask “why luke doing that?”. They don’t need to worry about growing the audience, and ignoring what made the franchise so popular is not the way to do it.
Disney should know better. Look at the lineups they have for crappy rides that have been around for 60 years. Why? they still work and multigenerations experienced them in their youth and enjoy seeing their kids enjoy them.
Disney should know better? I think the box office for TFA and TLJ shows they understand how to make money just fine. And of course that’s their goal, they’re a giant corporation.
My daughters saw the OT before TFA, and they really like the OT. But they love TFA. Rey is their hero, not Luke. The OT has basically like one female character.
They have to play the long game. The movies are the catalyst for a lot of money making enterprises. So my comment about the DC universe. Good numbers out of the gate as fans wanted to see these stories as movies forever, but then numbers turned bad.
It would not have taken much to give something to the long to fans of SW and still build new appeal.
Crapping all over Luke was a bad move. He may not be the hero to your daughters, but for many he was and he deserved better.If they continue this trend - one day your daughters get to enjoy a movie where Rey turns out to be piece of crap who tries to kill babies in her spare time.
This is ludicrous. I know the movie hurt you bad but come on.
Also to a large percentage of us who grew up with Luke, TLJ Luke was fantastic. “Crapping all over Luke” is just your opinion.
Just a ludicrous as Lukes story base on his ROFTJ character. IF they can take Luke have luke make such a turn, why not Rey in the future? Nothing sacrosanct anymore in the SW universe.
Wasn’t the whole idea of the movie that Luke can still be a hero in spite of his failures? I think that’s an important message, because what if some kid fucks up and feels he can’t come back from that? I know I’ve had those moments growing up, and it’s cool that TLJ tries to show that you aren’t defined by your flaws, but the good that you do and can do. It’s a very human approach to the hero, and one that I think is important.
“No one’s ever really gone…”
I think that would have been a great point, but his failings were not true to who he was. The last Luke we saw, would risk and do anything for his friends and believed there was light in even the (second) darkest person in the universe. This luke actively ignored his friends and those needing his help and considered murdering his nephew in his sleep because saw the POTENTIAL of darkness.
Sure 30 years has passed, but that is still a massive leap in who this person is. If the movie wants to make that leap it needs to actually support it to make it believable. But we don’t see that and the leap does not make sense. Within the movie, no new bad thing has happened since ROTJ to Luke before he considers murdering his nephew in cold blood. From everything we know of Luke and Jedi, that moment seems inconceivable to me.
Given that the one single moment is what triggers much of the movie’s events I see it as a pretty big flaw. Now if you remove the context of the other movies than Luke and his story is easier to buy in TLJ
His failure was not being true to who he was, or thought he was.
Whether or not it was developed enough is obviously in the eye of the beholder, but to feel let down and disappointed in where we find Luke at the start of this movie is the point.