The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 115

Porkins4real said:

DrDre said:

At first I didn’t understand why TLJ left so little story threads for future entries, feeling more like the final act of a story, than the middle one. In the context of what I wrote above it makes perfect sense. Future Star Wars movies won’t have these connective tissues like in the past, because it prevents the general audience from connecting with it, or worse even go and see it, since they need to have seen the previous entries to fully appreciate the new film. TLJ has eliminated that problem.

Why though? EVERYONE has seen Star Wars, and if they have not they are going to go see a new SW movie.

Yes, but is it enough to sustain the franchise going forward with a film released every year? In the old Lucas era it worked, but for the future? They have a proven business model with the MCU universe, filled with a wide variety of colorful characters. It makes perfect business sense to transfer that model to the Star Wars universe. That’s what they’re doing now in my view.

NFBisms said:

DrDre said:

NFBisms said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

I’ve been thinking a bit more about the broad stroke differences between TLJ and the rest of the saga, particulary the OT, and why some find TLJ refreshing, while others reject it. So, for a change I’m not going to talk about Rey’s Force powers, or Luke’s characterization, but more about in-universe history, and how that affects the story.

I think it is fair to say the OT is steeped in melancholy, and powerful connections to the past. The entire premise of ANH is to defeat the evil Empire, and to return the galaxy to a previous state, the fabled Old Republic. Luke is largely driven by the legend of his father, who’s friend Obi-Wan promises to teach him about an all but forgotten religion that both he and Luke’s father were a part of. The rest of the trilogy is largly set up such that Luke needs to vanguish the enemies of old, Darth Vader, and the Emperor, and avoid the pitfalls, that caused Vader, later revealed to be his father, to turn on his friend, and join the dark side.

To a large degree TFA operates in the same way. It treats Luke Skywalker as a legend of old, that both the heroes and villains are looking for. Luke went looking for the first Jedi temple, a place presumably steeped in Jedi history. It’s hinted, that Rey has a strong connection to the past, and Kylo Ren, who’s directly related to two other legends of the past, Han and Leia, was seduced to the dark side by some mysterious larger than life old anti-Yoda figure. Both Rey and Kylo Ren are struggling with their past, and the film ends with Kylo severing one of the links to his past by killing a past legend, while Rey connects with it by finding a past legend.

TLJ completely breaks with this Star Wars tradition. It actively deflates the past by telling us the history and legends we cherish are not as great as we want to believe. It actively cuts almost all ties to the past by killing off the remaining classic heroes (Leia technically not in the film), and even the links to the past TFA introduced. The mysterious Snoke is unceremoniously cast aside, and the secret of Rey’s past is, that she has no past, at least not one that’s relevant to her future. The family connection between good and evil that drove the OT and TFA is all but ignored, and then finally killed for good, when Leia gives up on her son, and Luke dies. What remains is a conflict between new heroes and new villains, that either killed their past, or don’t really have one.

It’s a bold move, which is sadly undercut by a strict adherence to the OT aesthetic and the OT’s basic premise of an Empire versus a small band of rebels. The question is why did the creators and by extension Disney decide to reboot the franchise, whilst also severing most connections to the past? My theory is, that it was done to make Star Wars more accessible to the general audience. Most of us hardcore fans will see the movies anyway. I know I probably will, despite my lack of enthousiasm. Anyone without much knowledge of Star Wars history will be able to see and enjoy episode IX. It’s starting point is similar to episode IV. There’s an evil Empire led by an evil maniac, a struggling rebellion led by an aspiring Jedi, and it looks like it’s part of the Star Wars brand. You need not know more.

It IS a bold move and one in which I think needed to happen for SW to evolve.

I might agree, if the bold move was used to create a new story, and new Star Wars lore but it wasn’t. It’s a reboot, and one that strips Star Wars from much of the deeper layers and themes, that made it stand out from the average blockbuster, in my opinion of course.

I think the themes and layers of TLJ are deeper and a little more meaningful than anything in both the OT and PT, especially in how the philosophical ideas tackled are all about our understanding of those previously established themes. It may be more of a meta-deconstruction of the themes, rather than a continuing re-affirmation of them, but they are still there and are still needed to be understood.

Well to me deconstructing and understanding are two very different things. IMO TLJ deconstructs the themes of the previous films not to provide understanding, but to devalue them. It’s thesis is not just that these themes are far less relevant going forward, but weren’t all that important in the first place, punctuated by Yoda’s page turner remark. The fact that the legends of old are used (or abused depending on your point of view) to transmit this message is also in of itself a clear attempt at devaluation, since evdn they are made to adhere to the new order.

Well, the two aren’t really disparate concepts, right? You can’t begin to deconstruct or devalue effectively without understanding what it is you’re deconstructing or devaluing in the first place. I wasn’t saying that TLJ was trying to provide clarity to the original trilogy’s themes - I do think TLJ and the originals are thematically different, just that they don’t conflict or clash like you say. TLJ can’t take away from the originals in my mind, because what it has to say, while different, is dependent on also understanding what the originals had to say and what it was that drove those films.

I think it’s disingenuous to say TLJ is an average blockbuster or that anything it has to say is on that level of Transformers, or Geostorm, or Avengers. If anything, it’s a little too heady for its own good. I definitely think it has pacing and tonal issues, as well as one too many plot threads that clearly have muddled what it was trying to say in the end, but its intentions and fundamental ideas have more depth than just “insert SW brand here.” It can’t be that, as well as trying to burn down Star Wars traditions, at the same time. It’s trying to be so much more, and whether or not it succeeds is just a matter of opinion.

And while something can be said about how it uses an evil Empire and plucky rebellion, as well as TIEs, X-Wings, and lightsabers, that’s all superficial when what informs and drives those things are clearly different enough to not be “Star Wars” to many people thematically.

Yes, but the whole point is, that the general audience doesn’t care about the themes that drove Star Wars in the past. In my view the current owners of the franchise feel Star Wars’ themes and connections to the past is a stumbling block for the general audience to connect with the material. In order to facilitate the growth of the potential market of these films, these themes and historic connections need to be simplified or removed. Star Wars is to be molded in the image of other franchises like the MCU universe, where connections between films are superficial at best. Anyone can watch a future MCU film, and enjoy them on their own terms, without having seen past entries. So will it be for Star Wars.

My point was that TLJ went out of its way to be alienating and have more depth than Star Wars as a franchise typically has. I don’t think the thematic differences = dumber, because the film was way too philosophical and dependent on understanding the previous concepts to be “simplified.” What it tackles about shame, hero worship, legacy, regret, and failure - the general human condition - is something that the typically morally binary Star Wars hadn’t even touched until now. But, like I said, it only touches those things in the context of us initially believing what we have about Star Wars as a universe.

Sure, this dumb hypothetical general audience doesn’t care about anything below surface level, but that’s the whole point. They could do anything with the Star Wars brand and it wouldn’t matter. Why would choosing to do and include things that makes Porkins4real’s 5-year-old ask “why Luke do that” and fans like you angry mean wider MCU-like appeal? The MCU is successful because it taps into that general audience AND die-hard comic book nerds, not one over the other. TLJ tried (imo) maybe way too hard to not be mass-appeal and bit itself in the ass critically. I don’t think the idea that Kennedy or Johnson thought doing that was a way to simplify things for a mass audience makes sense when you look at it.

Star Wars and Jaws were the two movies that heralded the blockbuster as a market/genre in the first place. Adhering to what Star Wars has been doing since 1977 would be what you described.

TLJ was only alienating to a group of die-hard fans. The critics and general audience ate it up. Many fans seem to be happy with it also. That’s about as general as the appeal can get. Like I said, I predict that there will be much less connective tissue between Star Wars films going forward. Individual directors may rise above the occassion, and provide depth and nuance, but to Star Wars as a brand and business, that won’t matter. Star Wars will become the MCU with space ships and lightsabers. That is my belief. This is not a bad thing perse. Like I said, I really like the MCU. Star Wars is hardly new and original anymore, and hasn’t been for years. However, for me personally something essential has been lost.

Porkins4real said:

DrDre said:

NFBisms said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

I’ve been thinking a bit more about the broad stroke differences between TLJ and the rest of the saga, particulary the OT, and why some find TLJ refreshing, while others reject it. So, for a change I’m not going to talk about Rey’s Force powers, or Luke’s characterization, but more about in-universe history, and how that affects the story.

I think it is fair to say the OT is steeped in melancholy, and powerful connections to the past. The entire premise of ANH is to defeat the evil Empire, and to return the galaxy to a previous state, the fabled Old Republic. Luke is largely driven by the legend of his father, who’s friend Obi-Wan promises to teach him about an all but forgotten religion that both he and Luke’s father were a part of. The rest of the trilogy is largly set up such that Luke needs to vanguish the enemies of old, Darth Vader, and the Emperor, and avoid the pitfalls, that caused Vader, later revealed to be his father, to turn on his friend, and join the dark side.

To a large degree TFA operates in the same way. It treats Luke Skywalker as a legend of old, that both the heroes and villains are looking for. Luke went looking for the first Jedi temple, a place presumably steeped in Jedi history. It’s hinted, that Rey has a strong connection to the past, and Kylo Ren, who’s directly related to two other legends of the past, Han and Leia, was seduced to the dark side by some mysterious larger than life old anti-Yoda figure. Both Rey and Kylo Ren are struggling with their past, and the film ends with Kylo severing one of the links to his past by killing a past legend, while Rey connects with it by finding a past legend.

TLJ completely breaks with this Star Wars tradition. It actively deflates the past by telling us the history and legends we cherish are not as great as we want to believe. It actively cuts almost all ties to the past by killing off the remaining classic heroes (Leia technically not in the film), and even the links to the past TFA introduced. The mysterious Snoke is unceremoniously cast aside, and the secret of Rey’s past is, that she has no past, at least not one that’s relevant to her future. The family connection between good and evil that drove the OT and TFA is all but ignored, and then finally killed for good, when Leia gives up on her son, and Luke dies. What remains is a conflict between new heroes and new villains, that either killed their past, or don’t really have one.

It’s a bold move, which is sadly undercut by a strict adherence to the OT aesthetic and the OT’s basic premise of an Empire versus a small band of rebels. The question is why did the creators and by extension Disney decide to reboot the franchise, whilst also severing most connections to the past? My theory is, that it was done to make Star Wars more accessible to the general audience. Most of us hardcore fans will see the movies anyway. I know I probably will, despite my lack of enthousiasm. Anyone without much knowledge of Star Wars history will be able to see and enjoy episode IX. It’s starting point is similar to episode IV. There’s an evil Empire led by an evil maniac, a struggling rebellion led by an aspiring Jedi, and it looks like it’s part of the Star Wars brand. You need not know more.

It IS a bold move and one in which I think needed to happen for SW to evolve.

I might agree, if the bold move was used to create a new story, and new Star Wars lore but it wasn’t. It’s a reboot, and one that strips Star Wars from much of the deeper layers and themes, that made it stand out from the average blockbuster, in my opinion of course.

I think the themes and layers of TLJ are deeper and a little more meaningful than anything in both the OT and PT, especially in how the philosophical ideas tackled are all about our understanding of those previously established themes. It may be more of a meta-deconstruction of the themes, rather than a continuing re-affirmation of them, but they are still there and are still needed to be understood.

Well to me deconstructing and understanding are two very different things. IMO TLJ deconstructs the themes of the previous films not to provide understanding, but to devalue them. It’s thesis is not just that these themes are far less relevant going forward, but that they weren’t all that important in the first place, punctuated by Yoda’s page turner remark. The fact that the legends of old are used (or abused depending on your point of view) to transmit this message is also in of itself a clear attempt at devaluation, since even they are made to adhere to the new order.

I think it’s disingenuous to say TLJ is an average blockbuster or that anything it has to say is on that level of Transformers, or Geostorm, or Avengers. If anything, it’s a little too heady for its own good. I definitely think it has pacing and tonal issues, as well as one too many plot threads that clearly have muddled what it was trying to say in the end, but its intentions and fundamental ideas have more depth than just “insert SW brand here.” It can’t be that, as well as trying to burn down Star Wars traditions, at the same time. It’s trying to be so much more, and whether or not it succeeds is just a matter of opinion.

And while something can be said about how it uses an evil Empire and plucky rebellion, as well as TIEs, X-Wings, and lightsabers, that’s all superficial when what informs and drives those things are clearly different enough to not be “Star Wars” to many people thematically.

Yes, but the whole point is, that the general audience doesn’t care about the themes that drove Star Wars in the past. In my view the current owners of the franchise feel Star Wars’ themes and connections to the past are a stumbling block for the general audience to connect with the material. In order to facilitate the growth of the potential market of these films, these themes and historic connections need to be simplified or removed.

Then the people running the franchise are DUMB. My kids, nieces and nephews all love the OT more than anything that came after, they were born 30+ years after ANH, yet they love it. I had 5-year-old ask “why luke doing that?”. They don’t need to worry about growing the audience, and ignoring what made the franchise so popular is not the way to do it.

Disney should know better. Look at the lineups they have for crappy rides that have been around for 60 years. Why? they still work and multigenerations experienced them in their youth and enjoy seeing their kids enjoy them.

Disney should know better? I think the box office for TFA and TLJ shows they understand how to make money just fine. And of course that’s their goal, they’re a giant corporation.

My daughters saw the OT before TFA, and they really like the OT. But they love TFA. Rey is their hero, not Luke. The OT has basically like one female character.

The prequels made lots of money. Is that how we are judging these things now?

Of course not. He said Disney should know better, that’s all I was responding to.

I see.

There’s a lot going on, sure, but I don’t see how it’s that complicated.

NFBisms said:

DrDre said:

NFBisms said:

DrDre said:

NFBisms said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

I’ve been thinking a bit more about the broad stroke differences between TLJ and the rest of the saga, particulary the OT, and why some find TLJ refreshing, while others reject it. So, for a change I’m not going to talk about Rey’s Force powers, or Luke’s characterization, but more about in-universe history, and how that affects the story.

I think it is fair to say the OT is steeped in melancholy, and powerful connections to the past. The entire premise of ANH is to defeat the evil Empire, and to return the galaxy to a previous state, the fabled Old Republic. Luke is largely driven by the legend of his father, who’s friend Obi-Wan promises to teach him about an all but forgotten religion that both he and Luke’s father were a part of. The rest of the trilogy is largly set up such that Luke needs to vanguish the enemies of old, Darth Vader, and the Emperor, and avoid the pitfalls, that caused Vader, later revealed to be his father, to turn on his friend, and join the dark side.

To a large degree TFA operates in the same way. It treats Luke Skywalker as a legend of old, that both the heroes and villains are looking for. Luke went looking for the first Jedi temple, a place presumably steeped in Jedi history. It’s hinted, that Rey has a strong connection to the past, and Kylo Ren, who’s directly related to two other legends of the past, Han and Leia, was seduced to the dark side by some mysterious larger than life old anti-Yoda figure. Both Rey and Kylo Ren are struggling with their past, and the film ends with Kylo severing one of the links to his past by killing a past legend, while Rey connects with it by finding a past legend.

TLJ completely breaks with this Star Wars tradition. It actively deflates the past by telling us the history and legends we cherish are not as great as we want to believe. It actively cuts almost all ties to the past by killing off the remaining classic heroes (Leia technically not in the film), and even the links to the past TFA introduced. The mysterious Snoke is unceremoniously cast aside, and the secret of Rey’s past is, that she has no past, at least not one that’s relevant to her future. The family connection between good and evil that drove the OT and TFA is all but ignored, and then finally killed for good, when Leia gives up on her son, and Luke dies. What remains is a conflict between new heroes and new villains, that either killed their past, or don’t really have one.

It’s a bold move, which is sadly undercut by a strict adherence to the OT aesthetic and the OT’s basic premise of an Empire versus a small band of rebels. The question is why did the creators and by extension Disney decide to reboot the franchise, whilst also severing most connections to the past? My theory is, that it was done to make Star Wars more accessible to the general audience. Most of us hardcore fans will see the movies anyway. I know I probably will, despite my lack of enthousiasm. Anyone without much knowledge of Star Wars history will be able to see and enjoy episode IX. It’s starting point is similar to episode IV. There’s an evil Empire led by an evil maniac, a struggling rebellion led by an aspiring Jedi, and it looks like it’s part of the Star Wars brand. You need not know more.

It IS a bold move and one in which I think needed to happen for SW to evolve.

I might agree, if the bold move was used to create a new story, and new Star Wars lore but it wasn’t. It’s a reboot, and one that strips Star Wars from much of the deeper layers and themes, that made it stand out from the average blockbuster, in my opinion of course.

I think the themes and layers of TLJ are deeper and a little more meaningful than anything in both the OT and PT, especially in how the philosophical ideas tackled are all about our understanding of those previously established themes. It may be more of a meta-deconstruction of the themes, rather than a continuing re-affirmation of them, but they are still there and are still needed to be understood.

Well to me deconstructing and understanding are two very different things. IMO TLJ deconstructs the themes of the previous films not to provide understanding, but to devalue them. It’s thesis is not just that these themes are far less relevant going forward, but weren’t all that important in the first place, punctuated by Yoda’s page turner remark. The fact that the legends of old are used (or abused depending on your point of view) to transmit this message is also in of itself a clear attempt at devaluation, since evdn they are made to adhere to the new order.

Well, the two aren’t really disparate concepts, right? You can’t begin to deconstruct or devalue effectively without understanding what it is you’re deconstructing or devaluing in the first place. I wasn’t saying that TLJ was trying to provide clarity to the original trilogy’s themes - I do think TLJ and the originals are thematically different, just that they don’t conflict or clash like you say. TLJ can’t take away from the originals in my mind, because what it has to say, while different, is dependent on also understanding what the originals had to say and what it was that drove those films.

I think it’s disingenuous to say TLJ is an average blockbuster or that anything it has to say is on that level of Transformers, or Geostorm, or Avengers. If anything, it’s a little too heady for its own good. I definitely think it has pacing and tonal issues, as well as one too many plot threads that clearly have muddled what it was trying to say in the end, but its intentions and fundamental ideas have more depth than just “insert SW brand here.” It can’t be that, as well as trying to burn down Star Wars traditions, at the same time. It’s trying to be so much more, and whether or not it succeeds is just a matter of opinion.

And while something can be said about how it uses an evil Empire and plucky rebellion, as well as TIEs, X-Wings, and lightsabers, that’s all superficial when what informs and drives those things are clearly different enough to not be “Star Wars” to many people thematically.

Yes, but the whole point is, that the general audience doesn’t care about the themes that drove Star Wars in the past. In my view the current owners of the franchise feel Star Wars’ themes and connections to the past is a stumbling block for the general audience to connect with the material. In order to facilitate the growth of the potential market of these films, these themes and historic connections need to be simplified or removed. Star Wars is to be molded in the image of other franchises like the MCU universe, where connections between films are superficial at best. Anyone can watch a future MCU film, and enjoy them on their own terms, without having seen past entries. So will it be for Star Wars.

My point was that TLJ went out of its way to be alienating and have more depth than Star Wars as a franchise typically has. I don’t think the thematic differences = dumber, because the film was way too philosophical and dependent on understanding the previous concepts to be “simplified.” What it tackles about shame, hero worship, legacy, regret, and failure - the general human condition - is something that the typically morally binary Star Wars hadn’t even touched until now. But, like I said, it only touches those things in the context of us initially believing what we have about Star Wars as a universe.

Sure, this dumb hypothetical general audience doesn’t care about anything below surface level, but that’s the whole point. They could do anything with the Star Wars brand and it wouldn’t matter. Why would choosing to do and include things that makes Porkins4real’s 5-year-old ask “why Luke do that” and fans like you angry mean wider MCU-like appeal? The MCU is successful because it taps into that general audience AND die-hard comic book nerds, not one over the other. TLJ tried (imo) maybe way too hard to not be mass-appeal and bit itself in the ass critically. I don’t think the idea that Kennedy or Johnson thought doing that was a way to simplify things for a mass audience makes sense when you look at it.

Star Wars and Jaws were the two movies that heralded the blockbuster as a market/genre in the first place. Adhering to what Star Wars has been doing since 1977 would be what you described.

TLJ was only alienating to a group of die-hard fans. The critics and general audience ate it up. Many fans seem to be happy with it also. That’s about as general as the appeal can get. Like I said, I predict that there will be much less connective tissue between Star Wars films going forward. Individual directors may rise above the occassion, and provide depth and nuance, but to Star Wars as a brand and business, that won’t matter. Star Wars will become the MCU with space ships and lightsabers. Star Wars is hardly new and original anymore. However, for me personally something essential has been lost.

It has a 51% audience score on RT, which is as close to 100% divided as you can get. And aside from probably inaccurate and irrelevant website ratings systems, you can’t honestly believe TLJ is only getting flack from die-hard fans, right? It is intensely polarizing all over the internet - you’ve definitely observed that - and for me personally, it is irl as well.

(Tbh, I don’t like the assertion that only this upper tier of fan is who doesn’t like TLJ. Anyone can dislike this movie, not just the “die-hard fans.” Anyone can have problems with it, not just “woke” fans. )

That’s all beside the point, though. How does TLJ of all films support the claim that it will become MCU with ships and lightsabers? I don’t even disagree that that’s what KK is trying to do, with standalones coming out every year, but TLJ of all things is what proves that? If anything, it shows me that they’re willing to take risks that the MCU wouldn’t take. It can’t be so thematically incongruous and subversive to the SW formula for you, but also too safe and simplified.

Well, I believe the imdb rating of 7.6 by over 200,000 users is more representative of the general audience rating. This seems in line with most well recieved blockbusters.

Having read the reviews my take is that most of the harsh criticism against TLJ is directed at it’s use of the classic characters, how it fits in the larger Star Wars universe, and to what extend it adheres to established canon. All of these criticisms are typical for die-hard fans, not the general audience. Three more general criricisms I have read, are pacing issues, bad comedy, and useless story threads, but I don’t believe these are at the heart of the most vehement objections to the film.

Kathleen Kennedy track record:

TFA - successful

TLJ - worst audience rating of all SW movies
R1 - basically fired the director
Solo - fired the directors and seems like a complete write-off
Ep. 9 - fired the director

Even Rick McCallum is shaking his head right now.

DrDre said:

NFBisms said:

DrDre said:

NFBisms said:

DrDre said:

NFBisms said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

I’ve been thinking a bit more about the broad stroke differences between TLJ and the rest of the saga, particulary the OT, and why some find TLJ refreshing, while others reject it. So, for a change I’m not going to talk about Rey’s Force powers, or Luke’s characterization, but more about in-universe history, and how that affects the story.

I think it is fair to say the OT is steeped in melancholy, and powerful connections to the past. The entire premise of ANH is to defeat the evil Empire, and to return the galaxy to a previous state, the fabled Old Republic. Luke is largely driven by the legend of his father, who’s friend Obi-Wan promises to teach him about an all but forgotten religion that both he and Luke’s father were a part of. The rest of the trilogy is largly set up such that Luke needs to vanguish the enemies of old, Darth Vader, and the Emperor, and avoid the pitfalls, that caused Vader, later revealed to be his father, to turn on his friend, and join the dark side.

To a large degree TFA operates in the same way. It treats Luke Skywalker as a legend of old, that both the heroes and villains are looking for. Luke went looking for the first Jedi temple, a place presumably steeped in Jedi history. It’s hinted, that Rey has a strong connection to the past, and Kylo Ren, who’s directly related to two other legends of the past, Han and Leia, was seduced to the dark side by some mysterious larger than life old anti-Yoda figure. Both Rey and Kylo Ren are struggling with their past, and the film ends with Kylo severing one of the links to his past by killing a past legend, while Rey connects with it by finding a past legend.

TLJ completely breaks with this Star Wars tradition. It actively deflates the past by telling us the history and legends we cherish are not as great as we want to believe. It actively cuts almost all ties to the past by killing off the remaining classic heroes (Leia technically not in the film), and even the links to the past TFA introduced. The mysterious Snoke is unceremoniously cast aside, and the secret of Rey’s past is, that she has no past, at least not one that’s relevant to her future. The family connection between good and evil that drove the OT and TFA is all but ignored, and then finally killed for good, when Leia gives up on her son, and Luke dies. What remains is a conflict between new heroes and new villains, that either killed their past, or don’t really have one.

It’s a bold move, which is sadly undercut by a strict adherence to the OT aesthetic and the OT’s basic premise of an Empire versus a small band of rebels. The question is why did the creators and by extension Disney decide to reboot the franchise, whilst also severing most connections to the past? My theory is, that it was done to make Star Wars more accessible to the general audience. Most of us hardcore fans will see the movies anyway. I know I probably will, despite my lack of enthousiasm. Anyone without much knowledge of Star Wars history will be able to see and enjoy episode IX. It’s starting point is similar to episode IV. There’s an evil Empire led by an evil maniac, a struggling rebellion led by an aspiring Jedi, and it looks like it’s part of the Star Wars brand. You need not know more.

It IS a bold move and one in which I think needed to happen for SW to evolve.

I might agree, if the bold move was used to create a new story, and new Star Wars lore but it wasn’t. It’s a reboot, and one that strips Star Wars from much of the deeper layers and themes, that made it stand out from the average blockbuster, in my opinion of course.

I think the themes and layers of TLJ are deeper and a little more meaningful than anything in both the OT and PT, especially in how the philosophical ideas tackled are all about our understanding of those previously established themes. It may be more of a meta-deconstruction of the themes, rather than a continuing re-affirmation of them, but they are still there and are still needed to be understood.

Well to me deconstructing and understanding are two very different things. IMO TLJ deconstructs the themes of the previous films not to provide understanding, but to devalue them. It’s thesis is not just that these themes are far less relevant going forward, but weren’t all that important in the first place, punctuated by Yoda’s page turner remark. The fact that the legends of old are used (or abused depending on your point of view) to transmit this message is also in of itself a clear attempt at devaluation, since evdn they are made to adhere to the new order.

Well, the two aren’t really disparate concepts, right? You can’t begin to deconstruct or devalue effectively without understanding what it is you’re deconstructing or devaluing in the first place. I wasn’t saying that TLJ was trying to provide clarity to the original trilogy’s themes - I do think TLJ and the originals are thematically different, just that they don’t conflict or clash like you say. TLJ can’t take away from the originals in my mind, because what it has to say, while different, is dependent on also understanding what the originals had to say and what it was that drove those films.

I think it’s disingenuous to say TLJ is an average blockbuster or that anything it has to say is on that level of Transformers, or Geostorm, or Avengers. If anything, it’s a little too heady for its own good. I definitely think it has pacing and tonal issues, as well as one too many plot threads that clearly have muddled what it was trying to say in the end, but its intentions and fundamental ideas have more depth than just “insert SW brand here.” It can’t be that, as well as trying to burn down Star Wars traditions, at the same time. It’s trying to be so much more, and whether or not it succeeds is just a matter of opinion.

And while something can be said about how it uses an evil Empire and plucky rebellion, as well as TIEs, X-Wings, and lightsabers, that’s all superficial when what informs and drives those things are clearly different enough to not be “Star Wars” to many people thematically.

Yes, but the whole point is, that the general audience doesn’t care about the themes that drove Star Wars in the past. In my view the current owners of the franchise feel Star Wars’ themes and connections to the past is a stumbling block for the general audience to connect with the material. In order to facilitate the growth of the potential market of these films, these themes and historic connections need to be simplified or removed. Star Wars is to be molded in the image of other franchises like the MCU universe, where connections between films are superficial at best. Anyone can watch a future MCU film, and enjoy them on their own terms, without having seen past entries. So will it be for Star Wars.

My point was that TLJ went out of its way to be alienating and have more depth than Star Wars as a franchise typically has. I don’t think the thematic differences = dumber, because the film was way too philosophical and dependent on understanding the previous concepts to be “simplified.” What it tackles about shame, hero worship, legacy, regret, and failure - the general human condition - is something that the typically morally binary Star Wars hadn’t even touched until now. But, like I said, it only touches those things in the context of us initially believing what we have about Star Wars as a universe.

Sure, this dumb hypothetical general audience doesn’t care about anything below surface level, but that’s the whole point. They could do anything with the Star Wars brand and it wouldn’t matter. Why would choosing to do and include things that makes Porkins4real’s 5-year-old ask “why Luke do that” and fans like you angry mean wider MCU-like appeal? The MCU is successful because it taps into that general audience AND die-hard comic book nerds, not one over the other. TLJ tried (imo) maybe way too hard to not be mass-appeal and bit itself in the ass critically. I don’t think the idea that Kennedy or Johnson thought doing that was a way to simplify things for a mass audience makes sense when you look at it.

Star Wars and Jaws were the two movies that heralded the blockbuster as a market/genre in the first place. Adhering to what Star Wars has been doing since 1977 would be what you described.

TLJ was only alienating to a group of die-hard fans. The critics and general audience ate it up. Many fans seem to be happy with it also. That’s about as general as the appeal can get. Like I said, I predict that there will be much less connective tissue between Star Wars films going forward. Individual directors may rise above the occassion, and provide depth and nuance, but to Star Wars as a brand and business, that won’t matter. Star Wars will become the MCU with space ships and lightsabers. Star Wars is hardly new and original anymore. However, for me personally something essential has been lost.

It has a 51% audience score on RT, which is as close to 100% divided as you can get. And aside from probably inaccurate and irrelevant website ratings systems, you can’t honestly believe TLJ is only getting flack from die-hard fans, right? It is intensely polarizing all over the internet - you’ve definitely observed that - and for me personally, it is irl as well.

(Tbh, I don’t like the assertion that only this upper tier of fan is who doesn’t like TLJ. Anyone can dislike this movie, not just the “die-hard fans.” Anyone can have problems with it, not just “woke” fans. )

That’s all beside the point, though. How does TLJ of all films support the claim that it will become MCU with ships and lightsabers? I don’t even disagree that that’s what KK is trying to do, with standalones coming out every year, but TLJ of all things is what proves that? If anything, it shows me that they’re willing to take risks that the MCU wouldn’t take. It can’t be so thematically incongruous and subversive to the SW formula for you, but also too safe and simplified.

Well, I believe the imdb rating of 7.6 by over 200,000 users is more representative of the general audience rating. This seems in line with most well recieved blockbusters.

Having read the reviews my take is that most of the harsh criticism against TLJ is directed at it’s use of the classic characters, how it fits in the larger Star Wars universe, and to what extend it adheres to established canon. All of these criticisms are typical for die-hard fans, not the general audience. Two more general criricisms I have read, are pacing issues, bad comedy, and useless story threads, but I don’t believe these are at the heart of the most vehement objections to the film.

I don’t agree this film is only criticized by die-hard fans.

DrDre said:

At first I didn’t understand why TLJ left so little story threads for future entries, feeling more like the final act of a story, than the middle one. In the context of what I wrote above it makes perfect sense. Future Star Wars movies won’t have these connective tissues like in the past, because it prevents the general audience from connecting with it, or worse even go and see it, since they need to have seen the previous entries to fully appreciate the new film. TLJ has eliminated that problem.

TLJ is the penultimate story if the Saga. It had to tie up a lot so that 9 could complete things. I can see how it was aiming to do that. Your theory about it resetting/rebooting things would make sense if they were going to continue the story, but with news that RJ will be doing an unconnected trilogy, it makes no sense. You have argued above that we need to know the filmmaker’s intent an RJ is a huge Star Wars fan so I don’t see how that equals deconstructing what came before. If the correct interpretation must incorporate the original intent, then you are quite mistaken in your deconstruction/reboot theory.

Disney Ruined Star Wars said:

DrDre said:

NFBisms said:

DrDre said:

NFBisms said:

DrDre said:

NFBisms said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

I’ve been thinking a bit more about the broad stroke differences between TLJ and the rest of the saga, particulary the OT, and why some find TLJ refreshing, while others reject it. So, for a change I’m not going to talk about Rey’s Force powers, or Luke’s characterization, but more about in-universe history, and how that affects the story.

I think it is fair to say the OT is steeped in melancholy, and powerful connections to the past. The entire premise of ANH is to defeat the evil Empire, and to return the galaxy to a previous state, the fabled Old Republic. Luke is largely driven by the legend of his father, who’s friend Obi-Wan promises to teach him about an all but forgotten religion that both he and Luke’s father were a part of. The rest of the trilogy is largly set up such that Luke needs to vanguish the enemies of old, Darth Vader, and the Emperor, and avoid the pitfalls, that caused Vader, later revealed to be his father, to turn on his friend, and join the dark side.

To a large degree TFA operates in the same way. It treats Luke Skywalker as a legend of old, that both the heroes and villains are looking for. Luke went looking for the first Jedi temple, a place presumably steeped in Jedi history. It’s hinted, that Rey has a strong connection to the past, and Kylo Ren, who’s directly related to two other legends of the past, Han and Leia, was seduced to the dark side by some mysterious larger than life old anti-Yoda figure. Both Rey and Kylo Ren are struggling with their past, and the film ends with Kylo severing one of the links to his past by killing a past legend, while Rey connects with it by finding a past legend.

TLJ completely breaks with this Star Wars tradition. It actively deflates the past by telling us the history and legends we cherish are not as great as we want to believe. It actively cuts almost all ties to the past by killing off the remaining classic heroes (Leia technically not in the film), and even the links to the past TFA introduced. The mysterious Snoke is unceremoniously cast aside, and the secret of Rey’s past is, that she has no past, at least not one that’s relevant to her future. The family connection between good and evil that drove the OT and TFA is all but ignored, and then finally killed for good, when Leia gives up on her son, and Luke dies. What remains is a conflict between new heroes and new villains, that either killed their past, or don’t really have one.

It’s a bold move, which is sadly undercut by a strict adherence to the OT aesthetic and the OT’s basic premise of an Empire versus a small band of rebels. The question is why did the creators and by extension Disney decide to reboot the franchise, whilst also severing most connections to the past? My theory is, that it was done to make Star Wars more accessible to the general audience. Most of us hardcore fans will see the movies anyway. I know I probably will, despite my lack of enthousiasm. Anyone without much knowledge of Star Wars history will be able to see and enjoy episode IX. It’s starting point is similar to episode IV. There’s an evil Empire led by an evil maniac, a struggling rebellion led by an aspiring Jedi, and it looks like it’s part of the Star Wars brand. You need not know more.

It IS a bold move and one in which I think needed to happen for SW to evolve.

I might agree, if the bold move was used to create a new story, and new Star Wars lore but it wasn’t. It’s a reboot, and one that strips Star Wars from much of the deeper layers and themes, that made it stand out from the average blockbuster, in my opinion of course.

I think the themes and layers of TLJ are deeper and a little more meaningful than anything in both the OT and PT, especially in how the philosophical ideas tackled are all about our understanding of those previously established themes. It may be more of a meta-deconstruction of the themes, rather than a continuing re-affirmation of them, but they are still there and are still needed to be understood.

Well to me deconstructing and understanding are two very different things. IMO TLJ deconstructs the themes of the previous films not to provide understanding, but to devalue them. It’s thesis is not just that these themes are far less relevant going forward, but weren’t all that important in the first place, punctuated by Yoda’s page turner remark. The fact that the legends of old are used (or abused depending on your point of view) to transmit this message is also in of itself a clear attempt at devaluation, since evdn they are made to adhere to the new order.

Well, the two aren’t really disparate concepts, right? You can’t begin to deconstruct or devalue effectively without understanding what it is you’re deconstructing or devaluing in the first place. I wasn’t saying that TLJ was trying to provide clarity to the original trilogy’s themes - I do think TLJ and the originals are thematically different, just that they don’t conflict or clash like you say. TLJ can’t take away from the originals in my mind, because what it has to say, while different, is dependent on also understanding what the originals had to say and what it was that drove those films.

I think it’s disingenuous to say TLJ is an average blockbuster or that anything it has to say is on that level of Transformers, or Geostorm, or Avengers. If anything, it’s a little too heady for its own good. I definitely think it has pacing and tonal issues, as well as one too many plot threads that clearly have muddled what it was trying to say in the end, but its intentions and fundamental ideas have more depth than just “insert SW brand here.” It can’t be that, as well as trying to burn down Star Wars traditions, at the same time. It’s trying to be so much more, and whether or not it succeeds is just a matter of opinion.

And while something can be said about how it uses an evil Empire and plucky rebellion, as well as TIEs, X-Wings, and lightsabers, that’s all superficial when what informs and drives those things are clearly different enough to not be “Star Wars” to many people thematically.

Yes, but the whole point is, that the general audience doesn’t care about the themes that drove Star Wars in the past. In my view the current owners of the franchise feel Star Wars’ themes and connections to the past is a stumbling block for the general audience to connect with the material. In order to facilitate the growth of the potential market of these films, these themes and historic connections need to be simplified or removed. Star Wars is to be molded in the image of other franchises like the MCU universe, where connections between films are superficial at best. Anyone can watch a future MCU film, and enjoy them on their own terms, without having seen past entries. So will it be for Star Wars.

My point was that TLJ went out of its way to be alienating and have more depth than Star Wars as a franchise typically has. I don’t think the thematic differences = dumber, because the film was way too philosophical and dependent on understanding the previous concepts to be “simplified.” What it tackles about shame, hero worship, legacy, regret, and failure - the general human condition - is something that the typically morally binary Star Wars hadn’t even touched until now. But, like I said, it only touches those things in the context of us initially believing what we have about Star Wars as a universe.

Sure, this dumb hypothetical general audience doesn’t care about anything below surface level, but that’s the whole point. They could do anything with the Star Wars brand and it wouldn’t matter. Why would choosing to do and include things that makes Porkins4real’s 5-year-old ask “why Luke do that” and fans like you angry mean wider MCU-like appeal? The MCU is successful because it taps into that general audience AND die-hard comic book nerds, not one over the other. TLJ tried (imo) maybe way too hard to not be mass-appeal and bit itself in the ass critically. I don’t think the idea that Kennedy or Johnson thought doing that was a way to simplify things for a mass audience makes sense when you look at it.

Star Wars and Jaws were the two movies that heralded the blockbuster as a market/genre in the first place. Adhering to what Star Wars has been doing since 1977 would be what you described.

TLJ was only alienating to a group of die-hard fans. The critics and general audience ate it up. Many fans seem to be happy with it also. That’s about as general as the appeal can get. Like I said, I predict that there will be much less connective tissue between Star Wars films going forward. Individual directors may rise above the occassion, and provide depth and nuance, but to Star Wars as a brand and business, that won’t matter. Star Wars will become the MCU with space ships and lightsabers. Star Wars is hardly new and original anymore. However, for me personally something essential has been lost.

It has a 51% audience score on RT, which is as close to 100% divided as you can get. And aside from probably inaccurate and irrelevant website ratings systems, you can’t honestly believe TLJ is only getting flack from die-hard fans, right? It is intensely polarizing all over the internet - you’ve definitely observed that - and for me personally, it is irl as well.

(Tbh, I don’t like the assertion that only this upper tier of fan is who doesn’t like TLJ. Anyone can dislike this movie, not just the “die-hard fans.” Anyone can have problems with it, not just “woke” fans. )

That’s all beside the point, though. How does TLJ of all films support the claim that it will become MCU with ships and lightsabers? I don’t even disagree that that’s what KK is trying to do, with standalones coming out every year, but TLJ of all things is what proves that? If anything, it shows me that they’re willing to take risks that the MCU wouldn’t take. It can’t be so thematically incongruous and subversive to the SW formula for you, but also too safe and simplified.

Well, I believe the imdb rating of 7.6 by over 200,000 users is more representative of the general audience rating. This seems in line with most well recieved blockbusters.

Having read the reviews my take is that most of the harsh criticism against TLJ is directed at it’s use of the classic characters, how it fits in the larger Star Wars universe, and to what extend it adheres to established canon. All of these criticisms are typical for die-hard fans, not the general audience. Two more general criricisms I have read, are pacing issues, bad comedy, and useless story threads, but I don’t believe these are at the heart of the most vehement objections to the film.

I don’t agree this film is only criticized by die-hard fans.

I don’t know. The movie poll among the general audience gave the film A. The imdb rating is well above average, and hasn’t been called into question like the RT audience rating. Many audience reviews are filled with such blind hatred, they must come from fans, because the general audience wouldn’t care that much. From a general audience perspective I would say TLJ is an entertaining film with some flaws, and the 7.6 rating is not unreasonable.

TV’s Frink said:

There’s a lot going on, sure, but I don’t see how it’s that complicated.

It’s not. The Resistance flees their base and almost gets wiped out despite their best efforts while Rey goes to find Luke Skywalker and answers and only ends up with some ancient texts before returning in time to save the survivors of the new Rebellion.

DrDre said:

Porkins4real said:

DrDre said:

At first I didn’t understand why TLJ left so little story threads for future entries, feeling more like the final act of a story, than the middle one. In the context of what I wrote above it makes perfect sense. Future Star Wars movies won’t have these connective tissues like in the past, because it prevents the general audience from connecting with it, or worse even go and see it, since they need to have seen the previous entries to fully appreciate the new film. TLJ has eliminated that problem.

Why though? EVERYONE has seen Star Wars, and if they have not they are going to go see a new SW movie.

Yes, but is it enough to sustain the franchise going forward with a film released every year? In the old Lucas era it worked, but for the future? They have a proven business model with the MCU universe, filled with a wide variety of colorful characters. It makes perfect business sense to transfer that model to the Star Wars universe. That’s what they’re doing now in my view.

Copying MCU (including the style) has worked great for DC right? TLJ tried to copy the flippant jokes of the MCU and it did not work. TLJ numbers are falling hard. This is playing out like Batman v Superman. The movie did not satisfy fans, but still did well, and DC did not get burned until the Justice League came out.

SW would be best not to try to be a copy of the MCU.

Well this thread grew in my brief absence (I suppose not a surprise at all).

All I’ll say is I’m with NFB, what TLJ did is exactly what SW needed to not become any other blockbuster franchise.

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

At first I didn’t understand why TLJ left so little story threads for future entries, feeling more like the final act of a story, than the middle one. In the context of what I wrote above it makes perfect sense. Future Star Wars movies won’t have these connective tissues like in the past, because it prevents the general audience from connecting with it, or worse even go and see it, since they need to have seen the previous entries to fully appreciate the new film. TLJ has eliminated that problem.

TLJ is the penultimate story if the Saga. It had to tie up a lot so that 9 could complete things.

RJ hasn’t left much to complete. Kylo Ren and the FO need to be beaten, such that freedom can be restored. The end.

What other story threads, mysteries, or familial relations are left to explore? Finn and Rose can continue their akward romance, I suppose?

I can see how it was aiming to do that. Your theory about it resetting/rebooting things would make sense if they were going to continue the story, but with news that RJ will be doing an unconnected trilogy, it makes no sense.

The announcement of a new unrelated trilogy fits into my narrative perfectly. They will continue to make films indefinitely. The fact that the trilogy is unconnected, implies there’s no connective tissue with the rest of the saga. Hooray!

You have argued above that we need to know the filmmaker’s intent an RJ is a huge Star Wars fan so I don’t see how that equals deconstructing what came before. If the correct interpretation must incorporate the original intent, then you are quite mistaken in your deconstruction/reboot theory.

Who says RJ takes away the same things from Star Wars as any other random fan? He may have a unique view point, that no other fan shares. Either way, he was hired by Disney to do a job, not to be a fan, and as far as I can see he lived up to their expectations.