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The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 110

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 (Edited)

TV’s Frink said:

nhoj3 said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

Possessed said:

Warbler said:

Rey won a lightsaber fight without any training at all. This indicates that she is special and incredibly strong in the force and it begs for an explanation.

The explanation is chewie had just shot kylo ren with his crossbow and he was quite injured. You can even see blood falling out of his suit in several shots.

Sorry, I don’t buy it. Yeah he was injured, but it was still someone trained against someone untrained.

Obviously the only way to test this is for you to go get trained in the Force, dahmaged will shoot you in the side, and then you and I will have a lightsaber fight. Let’s do this.

^ silly.

Let me know when you come up with a better way to prove you’re right and I’m wrong about that scene.

It seems to me that the standard approach on this site is to claim that the other persons opinion is unjustifiable while the opinions of the current poster are correct.
Then, sit back and allow the mob mentality to kick in.

Um…did you actually read the conversation you quoted?

What was the context of the Force choke discussion anyway? Did it relate to anything in TLJ, or did someone mention it in passing, and it grew into this huge debate?

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DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

Mocata said:

DrDre said:
Either way none of the films suggested balance of the Force implies dark and light balancing each other, and dark rising to balance light or vicd versa. In any case this interpretation has been debunked by Lucas himself.

To be fair this is inconsistent in the prequels like everything else. Lucas is hardly creating a fully developed canon ahead of time for later film makers to reference. In TPM they say the Sith were extinct, and the boy could just be “the one”. Then in (I think ROTS) this changes suddenly when Obi-wan says Anakin was destined to create balance by “destroying the Sith”. Who were extinct.

I agree, and I never really liked the Chosen One/balance angle, since it was little more than a plot device, and pretty underdeveloped.

I was actually fine with Rey’s depiction in TFA, and accepted that she was able to figure some things out for herself. She initially failed in using the Jedi mind trick, and Kylo Ren was seriously injured, and I expected her to be trained by Luke in TLJ, but in the end all she got from Luke were a couple of incomplete lessons, and some books, and despite this her Force powers continued to grow to the extend, that she beat Luke in a duel, saved Kylo in their battle with Snoke’s guards, and moved a ton of rocks with ease. That’s where I checked out.

  1. She did not beat Luke in that duel

So, Luke wasn’t put on his back with Rey grabbing and pointing a lightsaber at him? I think she had the high ground, a sure win in the Star Wars universe since 2005. :p

They were in a stick duel, which Luke won because he knocked hers out of her hand. Taking out the lightsaber was cheating, of course he fell back because all he had was a stick, I don’t see how that could be construed as her winning.

Winning a battle is not about playing fair. That’s called sport. If Rey had the intention of killing Luke, he would be a Force ghost. Therefore, she won the fight. She cheated, and she, a complete novice, beat a Jedi Master.

Respectfully, that’s completely ridiculous. You can’t say “if she had the intention,” because she didn’t and Luke knew that. If she did, things would have gone differently. Even without a lightsaber Luke could have easily bested her with the force. Literally all that happened was she caught him off guard with the saber. Equating that to "she beat a Jedi master is absolutely absurd. You’re just forcing this scene to fit your argument. That’s clearly not what happened.

  1. She didn’t “save” Ren, she just helped him

She helped him, such that the guard wouldn’t kill Ren, ergo it makes sense to conclude she saved him.

She just gave him the saber, he saved himself. This just shows them working as a team - using this to suggest she is more powerful than him is pretty silly.

There’s nothing in that scene, that suggests she is less powerful than Kylo. Unlike Kylo, she’s able to not get herself into a jam while fighting the guards, suggestung she’s actually more competent. It is not Rey who needs help, which would have been appropriate, since she’s far less experienced, but it’s Kylo. Had she not helped Kylo, he would be in serious trouble.

You’re forcing, again. Think how common a trope it is where the main hero is about to die and someone shoots the guy about to shoot them last minute. Does that make that person who got the shot first more powerful? No. Obviously this is a bad comparison, but only because the better comparison would be a scene where the other person throws the hero a gun and then they get the shot.

Not to mention that she’s just repaying the favor, considering Kylo did essentially the same thing (though very differently) by killing Snoke.

And also, I never said Kylo is more powerful. In fact, the film outright says they are equals. Now I understand you think that’s bullshit because Rey wasn’t trained as much, but I don’t really think that even factors into this scene.

  1. We didn’t actually see her lift the rocks, so we don’t know how “easy” it was

They didn’t show any strain on her face, like for example with Yoda in AOTC, or Luke in TESB. Therefore it makes sense to assume it was easier for her than either of those characters. Also, Luke wasn’t able to perform such an act after being trained by Yoda, straining to keep a few rocks afloat during the training sequence.

Yoda makes it clear that Luke could lift the x-wing if he had the right mindset. This isn’t like training to lift weights or being at a high level in a video game to do a certain power. It’s a matter of tapping properly into your potential.

I have problems with this scene myself but I don’t see anything wrong with the simple fact of her having the ability to lift rocks.

Considering that she’s been able to do all this Jedi stuff with zero effort, this lifting rocks thing is just the cherry on the cake for me. It contrasts strongly with the Luke lifting the X-wing scene, with the film seemingly suggesting Rey’s just better than Luke at everything, despite not recieving any training, or studying the Force herself. She just magically has these powers. That makes her a bland character for me. It’s not enough for her to be talented like Luke, the next new hope, she needs to be Luke on steroids.

I don’t think the film suggests she’s better than Luke at all. I mean yes, technically if you compare them she is, but the film doesn’t make a big deal of it, she just is and I don’t really understand what’s wrong with that (I guess it’s that old EU thing of “Luke is the most powerful force user ever”?). Yes she has these powers magically. Because the force is magic. No it doesn’t follow the exact arc of physical training that Luke received. But that doesn’t make her a bland character at all. Are superheroes bland characters because they get their powers in an instant? No, of course not (and that’s not saying that Rey becomes a superhero in an instant). The depth that her character has does not come from her physical journey. It comes from her internal, emotional journey.

Hate to say it, but this is an instance of people being mad that Rey isn’t exactly like Luke.

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This discussion is enough to give Admiral Motti heartburn.

The blue elephant in the room.

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DrDre said:

TV’s Frink said:

nhoj3 said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

Possessed said:

Warbler said:

Rey won a lightsaber fight without any training at all. This indicates that she is special and incredibly strong in the force and it begs for an explanation.

The explanation is chewie had just shot kylo ren with his crossbow and he was quite injured. You can even see blood falling out of his suit in several shots.

Sorry, I don’t buy it. Yeah he was injured, but it was still someone trained against someone untrained.

Obviously the only way to test this is for you to go get trained in the Force, dahmaged will shoot you in the side, and then you and I will have a lightsaber fight. Let’s do this.

^ silly.

Let me know when you come up with a better way to prove you’re right and I’m wrong about that scene.

It seems to me that the standard approach on this site is to claim that the other persons opinion is unjustifiable while the opinions of the current poster are correct.
Then, sit back and allow the mob mentality to kick in.

Um…did you actually read the conversation you quoted?

What was the context of the Force choke discussion anyway? Did it relate to anything in TLJ, or did someone mention it in passing, and it grew into this huge debate?

I honestly don’t remember. It’s amazing it’s gone on this long.

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Time

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

Mocata said:

DrDre said:
Either way none of the films suggested balance of the Force implies dark and light balancing each other, and dark rising to balance light or vicd versa. In any case this interpretation has been debunked by Lucas himself.

To be fair this is inconsistent in the prequels like everything else. Lucas is hardly creating a fully developed canon ahead of time for later film makers to reference. In TPM they say the Sith were extinct, and the boy could just be “the one”. Then in (I think ROTS) this changes suddenly when Obi-wan says Anakin was destined to create balance by “destroying the Sith”. Who were extinct.

I agree, and I never really liked the Chosen One/balance angle, since it was little more than a plot device, and pretty underdeveloped.

I was actually fine with Rey’s depiction in TFA, and accepted that she was able to figure some things out for herself. She initially failed in using the Jedi mind trick, and Kylo Ren was seriously injured, and I expected her to be trained by Luke in TLJ, but in the end all she got from Luke were a couple of incomplete lessons, and some books, and despite this her Force powers continued to grow to the extend, that she beat Luke in a duel, saved Kylo in their battle with Snoke’s guards, and moved a ton of rocks with ease. That’s where I checked out.

  1. She did not beat Luke in that duel

So, Luke wasn’t put on his back with Rey grabbing and pointing a lightsaber at him? I think she had the high ground, a sure win in the Star Wars universe since 2005. :p

They were in a stick duel, which Luke won because he knocked hers out of her hand. Taking out the lightsaber was cheating, of course he fell back because all he had was a stick, I don’t see how that could be construed as her winning.

Winning a battle is not about playing fair. That’s called sport. If Rey had the intention of killing Luke, he would be a Force ghost. Therefore, she won the fight. She cheated, and she, a complete novice, beat a Jedi Master.

Respectfully, that’s completely ridiculous. You can’t say “if she had the intention,” because she didn’t and Luke knew that. If she did, things would have gone differently. Even without a lightsaber Luke could have easily bested her with the force. Literally all that happened was she caught him off guard with the saber. Equating that to "she beat a Jedi master is absolutely absurd. You’re just forcing this scene to fit your argument. That’s clearly not what happened.

  1. She didn’t “save” Ren, she just helped him

She helped him, such that the guard wouldn’t kill Ren, ergo it makes sense to conclude she saved him.

She just gave him the saber, he saved himself. This just shows them working as a team - using this to suggest she is more powerful than him is pretty silly.

There’s nothing in that scene, that suggests she is less powerful than Kylo. Unlike Kylo, she’s able to not get herself into a jam while fighting the guards, suggestung she’s actually more competent. It is not Rey who needs help, which would have been appropriate, since she’s far less experienced, but it’s Kylo. Had she not helped Kylo, he would be in serious trouble.

You’re forcing, again. Think how common a trope it is where the main hero is about to die and someone shoots the guy about to shoot them last minute. Does that make that person who got the shot first more powerful? No. Obviously this is a bad comparison, but only because the better comparison would be a scene where the other person throws the hero a gun and then they get the shot.

Not to mention that she’s just repaying the favor, considering Kylo did essentially the same thing (though very differently) by killing Snoke.

And also, I never said Kylo is more powerful. In fact, the film outright says they are equals. Now I understand you think that’s bullshit because Rey wasn’t trained as much, but I don’t really think that even factors into this scene.

  1. We didn’t actually see her lift the rocks, so we don’t know how “easy” it was

They didn’t show any strain on her face, like for example with Yoda in AOTC, or Luke in TESB. Therefore it makes sense to assume it was easier for her than either of those characters. Also, Luke wasn’t able to perform such an act after being trained by Yoda, straining to keep a few rocks afloat during the training sequence.

Yoda makes it clear that Luke could lift the x-wing if he had the right mindset. This isn’t like training to lift weights or being at a high level in a video game to do a certain power. It’s a matter of tapping properly into your potential.

I have problems with this scene myself but I don’t see anything wrong with the simple fact of her having the ability to lift rocks.

Considering that she’s been able to do all this Jedi stuff with zero effort, this lifting rocks thing is just the cherry on the cake for me. It contrasts strongly with the Luke lifting the X-wing scene, with the film seemingly suggesting Rey’s just better than Luke at everything, despite not recieving any training, or studying the Force herself. She just magically has these powers. That makes her a bland character for me. It’s not enough for her to be talented like Luke, the next new hope, she needs to be Luke on steroids.

I don’t think the film suggests she’s better than Luke at all. I mean yes, technically if you compare them she is, but the film doesn’t make a big deal of it, she just is and I don’t really understand what’s wrong with that (I guess it’s that old EU thing of “Luke is the most powerful force user ever”?). Yes she has these powers magically. Because the force is magic. No it doesn’t follow the exact arc of physical training that Luke received. But that doesn’t make her a bland character at all. Are superheroes bland characters because they get their powers in an instant? No, of course not (and that’s not saying that Rey becomes a superhero in an instant). The depth that her character has does not come from her physical journey. It comes from her internal, emotional journey.

Hate to say it, but this is an instance of people being mad that Rey isn’t exactly like Luke.

I was busy writing up some similar thoughts, thanks for saving me the bother lol.

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TV’s Frink said:

nhoj3 said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

Possessed said:

Warbler said:

Rey won a lightsaber fight without any training at all. This indicates that she is special and incredibly strong in the force and it begs for an explanation.

The explanation is chewie had just shot kylo ren with his crossbow and he was quite injured. You can even see blood falling out of his suit in several shots.

Sorry, I don’t buy it. Yeah he was injured, but it was still someone trained against someone untrained.

Obviously the only way to test this is for you to go get trained in the Force, dahmaged will shoot you in the side, and then you and I will have a lightsaber fight. Let’s do this.

^ silly.

Let me know when you come up with a better way to prove you’re right and I’m wrong about that scene.

It seems to me that the standard approach on this site is to claim that the other persons opinion is unjustifiable while the opinions of the current poster are correct.
Then, sit back and allow the mob mentality to kick in.

Um…did you actually read the conversation you quoted?

Of course I did. And as usual it’s one person giving their honest opinion and subsequently being told how incorrect the are by others. Ultimately someone gets frustrated and belittles a poster.

Don’t worry, it’s not just you.

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 (Edited)

nhoj3 said:

TV’s Frink said:

nhoj3 said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

Possessed said:

Warbler said:

Rey won a lightsaber fight without any training at all. This indicates that she is special and incredibly strong in the force and it begs for an explanation.

The explanation is chewie had just shot kylo ren with his crossbow and he was quite injured. You can even see blood falling out of his suit in several shots.

Sorry, I don’t buy it. Yeah he was injured, but it was still someone trained against someone untrained.

Obviously the only way to test this is for you to go get trained in the Force, dahmaged will shoot you in the side, and then you and I will have a lightsaber fight. Let’s do this.

^ silly.

Let me know when you come up with a better way to prove you’re right and I’m wrong about that scene.

It seems to me that the standard approach on this site is to claim that the other persons opinion is unjustifiable while the opinions of the current poster are correct.
Then, sit back and allow the mob mentality to kick in.

Um…did you actually read the conversation you quoted?

Of course I did. And as usual it’s one person giving their honest opinion and subsequently being told how incorrect the are by others. Ultimately someone gets frustrated and belittles a poster.

Yeah, no. Warb even pointed out himself that I was just being silly.

I mean there’s certainly other examples you could have used but that’s about the worst one.

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TV’s Frink said:

I honestly don’t remember. It’s amazing it’s gone on this long.

If memory serves, the debate was about whether Luke was in character, yadda, yadda, yadda. Someone gave a list of dark or dark-ish behaviors Luke perpetrated in ROTJ: cutting off Vader’s hand, putting nipple clamps on an Ewok, force choking people, etc. Warb expressed confusion at the force choking thing, and here we are!

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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TV’s Frink said:

nhoj3 said:

TV’s Frink said:

nhoj3 said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

Possessed said:

Warbler said:

Rey won a lightsaber fight without any training at all. This indicates that she is special and incredibly strong in the force and it begs for an explanation.

The explanation is chewie had just shot kylo ren with his crossbow and he was quite injured. You can even see blood falling out of his suit in several shots.

Sorry, I don’t buy it. Yeah he was injured, but it was still someone trained against someone untrained.

Obviously the only way to test this is for you to go get trained in the Force, dahmaged will shoot you in the side, and then you and I will have a lightsaber fight. Let’s do this.

^ silly.

Let me know when you come up with a better way to prove you’re right and I’m wrong about that scene.

It seems to me that the standard approach on this site is to claim that the other persons opinion is unjustifiable while the opinions of the current poster are correct.
Then, sit back and allow the mob mentality to kick in.

Um…did you actually read the conversation you quoted?

Of course I did. And as usual it’s one person giving their honest opinion and subsequently being told how incorrect the are by others. Ultimately someone gets frustrated and belittles a poster.

Yeah, no. Warb even pointed out himself that I was just being silly.

I mean there’s certainly other examples you could have used but that’s about the worst one.

If you re-read your post you’ll notice that you asked for an alternative methodology… my apologies, I let my thread frustrations get the better of me while providing an option.

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Gaffer Tape said:

TV’s Frink said:

I honestly don’t remember. It’s amazing it’s gone on this long.

If memory serves, the debate was about whether Luke was in character, yadda, yadda, yadda. Someone gave a list of dark or dark-ish behaviors Luke perpetrated in ROTJ: cutting off Vader’s hand, putting nipple clamps on an Ewok, force choking people, etc. Warb expressed confusion at the force choking thing, and here we are!

Warb wasn’t first, Mrebo was before that (and maybe someone else I can’t remember). Otherwise sounds spot on…I forgot about the Ewok thing!

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TV’s Frink said:

Gaffer Tape said:

TV’s Frink said:

I honestly don’t remember. It’s amazing it’s gone on this long.

If memory serves, the debate was about whether Luke was in character, yadda, yadda, yadda. Someone gave a list of dark or dark-ish behaviors Luke perpetrated in ROTJ: cutting off Vader’s hand, putting nipple clamps on an Ewok, force choking people, etc. Warb expressed confusion at the force choking thing, and here we are!

Warb wasn’t first, Mrebo was before that (and maybe someone else I can’t remember). Otherwise sounds spot on…I forgot about the Ewok thing!

I was backing up Warb that I read the scene the same as him.

The blue elephant in the room.

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TV’s Frink said:

Warb wasn’t first, Mrebo was before that (and maybe someone else I can’t remember). Otherwise sounds spot on…I forgot about the Ewok thing!

I betcha five liters of milk from the space teet of Ach-To Sydney Greenstreet that Warb was first!

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

Author
Time

Mrebo said:

TV’s Frink said:

Gaffer Tape said:

TV’s Frink said:

I honestly don’t remember. It’s amazing it’s gone on this long.

If memory serves, the debate was about whether Luke was in character, yadda, yadda, yadda. Someone gave a list of dark or dark-ish behaviors Luke perpetrated in ROTJ: cutting off Vader’s hand, putting nipple clamps on an Ewok, force choking people, etc. Warb expressed confusion at the force choking thing, and here we are!

Warb wasn’t first, Mrebo was before that (and maybe someone else I can’t remember). Otherwise sounds spot on…I forgot about the Ewok thing!

I was backing up Warb that I read the scene the same as him.

I thought you either brought it up or agreed with it before Warb even entered the picture, but apparently not. I could have sworn Warb was not the first to mention it.

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Gaffer Tape said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warb wasn’t first, Mrebo was before that (and maybe someone else I can’t remember). Otherwise sounds spot on…I forgot about the Ewok thing!

I betcha five liters of milk from the space teet of Ach-To Sydney Greenstreet that Warb was first!

I’m no longer willing to take that bet.

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But I guess we’ve moved on from arguing about what the scene meant to arguing about who brought it up first…PROGRESS!!!

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Damn it. I was hoping someone would run with the Ewok nipple clamp thing, so we could spend six pages debating whether that happened in the movie, or if it was only in the novel!

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

Author
Time

Gaffer Tape said:

TV’s Frink said:

I honestly don’t remember. It’s amazing it’s gone on this long.

If memory serves, the debate was about whether Luke was in character, yadda, yadda, yadda. Someone gave a list of dark or dark-ish behaviors Luke perpetrated in ROTJ: cutting off Vader’s hand, putting nipple clamps on an Ewok, force choking people, etc. Warb expressed confusion at the force choking thing, and here we are!

At least the Ewok nipple clamp was pretty unambiguous, no room for debate there.

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Gaffer Tape said:

Damn it. I was hoping someone would run with the Ewok nipple clamp thing, so we could spend six pages debating whether that happened in the movie, or if it was only in the novel!

I mentioned it!