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The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 108

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Mrebo said:

Mielr said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

DrDre said:

Porkins4real said:

DrDre said:

Mocata said:

DrDre said:
Yeah, but that just a way of bypassing the argument.

By weighing up the things we see on screen and coming to a rational conclusion? TFA aside what does she do in TLJ that makes her so perfect? Screw everything up and give Kylo a swanky throne? Made of solid gold? I don’t get it. Then again we had a whole debate about how Luke never choked anyone, so who knows what powers of inference anybody has these days. So many angry people.

I wasn’t part of the Luke Force choke debate, sorry.

Given Mark Hammill believe Luke never used Force Choke we can put that debate to bed.

I personally allways interpreted the scene as signifying Luke’s a darker character now, and more like his father than he might think. So, to me that allways was a case of Luke using a Force choke, but if Hamill or anyone else sees it differently, I suppose only George Lucas has the answer. The ROTJ screenplay doesn’t speak of a Force choke, so you may very well be right.

anyone know exactly what the screenplay says in that scene?

It doesn’t matter. What matters is what’s on the screen, and they’re clearly being choked. They make gurgling sounds and put their hands up to their throats.

The screenplay might show what they intended Luke to be doing in that scene.

Why is this still a debate?

Because I’ve watched that scene millions of times over the last 34 years since it came out, and I never got the idea he was using force choke.

I posted the quotes from the novelization AND the screenplay on pg. 106 (is anyone listening?! LOL!!!)

Those were discussed. The novelization is obviously at odds with what we see on screen and you must contend that even if everything else in that quote is wrong (dropping weapons, falling to knees) then at least the choking is true. The screenplay lines up with my view of the scene and rather than being “less specific” as you say, simply describes something very different from the novel. I don’t begrudge the inferences you wish to draw from the scene, but I think it is way more ambiguous than many are willing to accept.

The screenplay and the novel are both essentially EU because they aren’t the movie. You shouldn’t have to read or watch anything that is “movie-adjacent” to understand what is going on.

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TV’s Frink said:

SilverWook said:

Mocata said:

lovelikewinter said:
I’d have rather he said Palpatine. However, I’m thankful we didn’t get Hayden Christensen in this, so he’s not going to be in the Trilogy unless JJ pulls a 180 on his ideas of the Prequels.

He should have said that the Jedi were so blind that a simple senator took power, it be more powerful and less … cringey. Now we have to consider that Luke caught up with friends for a drink after the war in that 1950s diner.

That might have been less annoying to everyone who wants the prequels to cease to exist, but Disney likes making money off that trilogy too. 😉
I still don’t get why people have issues with Dexter’s diner.

My issue with it is all the blatant CGI - Ewan is clearly the only real thing in the scene. To that point, their “hug” is one of the most embarrassing things in the whole PT. It probably would have looked more natural just seeing Ewan hugging air. Otherwise I kind of like Dex’s character.

The set is real. And a lot of underpaid animators in dark little cubicles worked hard on that shot for weeks! Cut them some slack! 😉
Seriously though, George picks the worst scenes for all CG characters.

Forum Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

Mocata said:

DrDre said:
Either way none of the films suggested balance of the Force implies dark and light balancing each other, and dark rising to balance light or vicd versa. In any case this interpretation has been debunked by Lucas himself.

To be fair this is inconsistent in the prequels like everything else. Lucas is hardly creating a fully developed canon ahead of time for later film makers to reference. In TPM they say the Sith were extinct, and the boy could just be “the one”. Then in (I think ROTS) this changes suddenly when Obi-wan says Anakin was destined to create balance by “destroying the Sith”. Who were extinct.

I agree, and I never really liked the Chosen One/balance angle, since it was little more than a plot device, and pretty underdeveloped.

I was actually fine with Rey’s depiction in TFA, and accepted that she was able to figure some things out for herself. She initially failed in using the Jedi mind trick, and Kylo Ren was seriously injured, and I expected her to be trained by Luke in TLJ, but in the end all she got from Luke were a couple of incomplete lessons, and some books, and despite this her Force powers continued to grow to the extend, that she beat Luke in a duel, saved Kylo in their battle with Snoke’s guards, and moved a ton of rocks with ease. That’s where I checked out.

  1. She did not beat Luke in that duel

So, Luke wasn’t put on his back with Rey grabbing and pointing a lightsaber at him? I think she had the high ground, a sure win in the Star Wars universe since 2005. :p

  1. She didn’t “save” Ren, she just helped him

She helped him, such that the guard wouldn’t kill Ren, ergo it makes sense to conclude she saved him.

  1. We didn’t actually see her lift the rocks, so we don’t know how “easy” it was

They didn’t show any strain on her face, like for example with Yoda in AOTC, or Luke in TESB. Therefore it makes sense to assume it was easier for her than either of those characters. Also, Luke wasn’t able to perform such an act after being trained by Yoda, straining to keep a few rocks afloat during the training sequence.

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TV’s Frink said:

Mrebo said:

Mielr said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

DrDre said:

Porkins4real said:

DrDre said:

Mocata said:

DrDre said:
Yeah, but that just a way of bypassing the argument.

By weighing up the things we see on screen and coming to a rational conclusion? TFA aside what does she do in TLJ that makes her so perfect? Screw everything up and give Kylo a swanky throne? Made of solid gold? I don’t get it. Then again we had a whole debate about how Luke never choked anyone, so who knows what powers of inference anybody has these days. So many angry people.

I wasn’t part of the Luke Force choke debate, sorry.

Given Mark Hammill believe Luke never used Force Choke we can put that debate to bed.

I personally allways interpreted the scene as signifying Luke’s a darker character now, and more like his father than he might think. So, to me that allways was a case of Luke using a Force choke, but if Hamill or anyone else sees it differently, I suppose only George Lucas has the answer. The ROTJ screenplay doesn’t speak of a Force choke, so you may very well be right.

anyone know exactly what the screenplay says in that scene?

It doesn’t matter. What matters is what’s on the screen, and they’re clearly being choked. They make gurgling sounds and put their hands up to their throats.

The screenplay might show what they intended Luke to be doing in that scene.

Why is this still a debate?

Because I’ve watched that scene millions of times over the last 34 years since it came out, and I never got the idea he was using force choke.

I posted the quotes from the novelization AND the screenplay on pg. 106 (is anyone listening?! LOL!!!)

Those were discussed. The novelization is obviously at odds with what we see on screen and you must contend that even if everything else in that quote is wrong (dropping weapons, falling to knees) then at least the choking is true. The screenplay lines up with my view of the scene and rather than being “less specific” as you say, simply describes something very different from the novel. I don’t begrudge the inferences you wish to draw from the scene, but I think it is way more ambiguous than many are willing to accept.

The screenplay and the novel are both essentially EU because they aren’t the movie. You shouldn’t have to read or watch anything directly out of the movie to understand what is going on.

On this we agree! As I said, I don’t begrudge the inferences you wish to draw from the scene, but I think it is way more ambiguous than many are willing to accept.

The blue elephant in the room.

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I will never understand how gurgling noises and putting your hands up to your throat/chest area could be considered “going to sleep.” You clearly sleep differently than pretty much any other person.

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TV’s Frink said:

I will never understand how gurgling noises and putting your hands up to your throat/chest area could be considered “going to sleep.” You clearly sleep differently than pretty much any other person.

The guards have sleep apnea! 😄

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Mielr said:

TV’s Frink said:

I will never understand how gurgling noises and putting your hands up to your throat/chest area could be considered “going to sleep.” You clearly sleep differently than pretty much any other person.

The guards have sleep apnea! 😄

Well yeah, but if you look closely you can see their CPAP machines, so that’s not the noise we’re hearing.

And now I feel old. 😉

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TV’s Frink said:

I will never understand how gurgling noises and putting your hands up to your throat/chest area could be considered “going to sleep.” You clearly sleep differently than pretty much any other person.

I never said I thought they were going to sleep. I do not think they were going to sleep.

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It’s so weird to me that people see Luke vs. Guards as something other than a force choke.

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TV’s Frink said:

I will never understand how gurgling noises and putting your hands up to your throat/chest area could be considered “going to sleep.” You clearly sleep differently than pretty much any other person.

That’s obviously not what I’ve been saying. They ultimately go to sleep. I don’t think it’s super important what Luke is doing there, though I understand some of you read all kinds of foreshadowing into it. If we got answers from the people playing the GGs that they were being choked, okay. But a split second halting pig noise and hands going to the chest/neck with a vague hand gesture isn’t so obviously choking. The fleeting moment doesn’t seem to have meant to carry the import some attach anyway.

The blue elephant in the room.

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Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

I will never understand how gurgling noises and putting your hands up to your throat/chest area could be considered “going to sleep.” You clearly sleep differently than pretty much any other person.

I never said I thought they were going to sleep. I do not think they were going to sleep.

Sorry, it was Mrebo who said it.

So if you don’t think they’re choking, what’s your alternate explanation?

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Mrebo said:

TV’s Frink said:

I will never understand how gurgling noises and putting your hands up to your throat/chest area could be considered “going to sleep.” You clearly sleep differently than pretty much any other person.

That’s obviously not what I’ve been saying. They ultimately go to sleep. I don’t think it’s super important what Luke is doing there, though I understand some of you read all kinds of foreshadowing into it. If we got answers from the people playing the GGs that they were being choked, okay. But a split second halting pig noise and hands going to the chest/neck with a vague hand gesture isn’t so obviously choking. The fleeting moment doesn’t seem to have meant to carry the import some attach anyway.

So wait, what are you saying then? It’s not obvious to me at all.

I thought you said Luke did a mind trick to make them go to sleep.

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TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

I will never understand how gurgling noises and putting your hands up to your throat/chest area could be considered “going to sleep.” You clearly sleep differently than pretty much any other person.

I never said I thought they were going to sleep. I do not think they were going to sleep.

Sorry, it was Mrebo who said it.

So if you don’t think their choking, what’s your alternate explanation?

Luke choked them, but he didn’t kill them. They were choked until they were unconscious.

It seems like people are really embracing the new characters. In fact, the big question people ask me now about Star Wars is, “Are Finn and Poe gay lovers?” And really how the f*ck would I know? My second husband left me for a man, so my gaydar isn’t exactly what you’d call Death Star level quality. ----Carrie Fisher

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Collipso said:

It’s so weird to me that people see Luke vs. Guards as something other than a force choke.

Don’t worry, next week someone will post a 10 minute video of someone else explaining exactly why anyone who thinks it’s a force choke is wrong.

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lovelikewinter said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

I will never understand how gurgling noises and putting your hands up to your throat/chest area could be considered “going to sleep.” You clearly sleep differently than pretty much any other person.

I never said I thought they were going to sleep. I do not think they were going to sleep.

Sorry, it was Mrebo who said it.

So if you don’t think their choking, what’s your alternate explanation?

Luke choked them, but he didn’t kill them. They were choked until they were unconscious.

Who said he killed them? No one said that.

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Collipso said:

It’s so weird to me that people see Luke vs. Guards as something other than a force choke.

I wonder if part of it could be that for years, I could only watch it on VHS in pan and scan. Letterboxing just wasn’t done in 1983. The guards putting their hands on their necks might have been cut out of the frame. I only saw the widescreen version once in 1983 and then pan and scan for years until the SE came out in the theaters.

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TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

I will never understand how gurgling noises and putting your hands up to your throat/chest area could be considered “going to sleep.” You clearly sleep differently than pretty much any other person.

I never said I thought they were going to sleep. I do not think they were going to sleep.

Sorry, it was Mrebo who said it.

So if you don’t think they’re choking, what’s your alternate explanation?

for years I just though he used a mind trick maybe combined with force push to get them to back off.

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TV’s Frink said:

Collipso said:

It’s so weird to me that people see Luke vs. Guards as something other than a force choke.

Don’t worry, next week someone will post a 10 minute video of someone else explaining exactly why anyone who thinks it’s a force choke is wrong.

sheesh.

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 (Edited)

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

I will never understand how gurgling noises and putting your hands up to your throat/chest area could be considered “going to sleep.” You clearly sleep differently than pretty much any other person.

I never said I thought they were going to sleep. I do not think they were going to sleep.

Sorry, it was Mrebo who said it.

So if you don’t think they’re choking, what’s your alternate explanation?

for years I just though he used a mind trick maybe combined with force push to get them to back off.

Ok so that’s clearly not the case. Glad this one is over with…on to the next debate!

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Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Collipso said:

It’s so weird to me that people see Luke vs. Guards as something other than a force choke.

Don’t worry, next week someone will post a 10 minute video of someone else explaining exactly why anyone who thinks it’s a force choke is wrong.

sheesh.

It’s like you’ve just met me or something.

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I always though he was Force-choking them. I thought this, and the black outfit, were Lucas’ way of foreshadowing the possibility that Luke could go either way Force-wise.

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Warbler said:

Collipso said:

It’s so weird to me that people see Luke vs. Guards as something other than a force choke.

I wonder if part of it could be that for years, I could only watch it on VHS in pan and scan. Letterboxing just wasn’t done in 1983. The guards putting their hands on their necks might have been cut out of the frame. I only saw the widescreen version once in 1983 and then pan and scan for years until the SE came out in the theaters.

I can’t confirm how much the P&S VHS cut off but there’s also the choking noises they make.

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Mrebo said:

Mielr said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

DrDre said:

Porkins4real said:

DrDre said:

Mocata said:

DrDre said:
Yeah, but that just a way of bypassing the argument.

By weighing up the things we see on screen and coming to a rational conclusion? TFA aside what does she do in TLJ that makes her so perfect? Screw everything up and give Kylo a swanky throne? Made of solid gold? I don’t get it. Then again we had a whole debate about how Luke never choked anyone, so who knows what powers of inference anybody has these days. So many angry people.

I wasn’t part of the Luke Force choke debate, sorry.

Given Mark Hammill believe Luke never used Force Choke we can put that debate to bed.

I personally allways interpreted the scene as signifying Luke’s a darker character now, and more like his father than he might think. So, to me that allways was a case of Luke using a Force choke, but if Hamill or anyone else sees it differently, I suppose only George Lucas has the answer. The ROTJ screenplay doesn’t speak of a Force choke, so you may very well be right.

anyone know exactly what the screenplay says in that scene?

It doesn’t matter. What matters is what’s on the screen, and they’re clearly being choked. They make gurgling sounds and put their hands up to their throats.

The screenplay might show what they intended Luke to be doing in that scene.

Why is this still a debate?

Because I’ve watched that scene millions of times over the last 34 years since it came out, and I never got the idea he was using force choke.

I posted the quotes from the novelization AND the screenplay on pg. 106 (is anyone listening?! LOL!!!)

Those were discussed. The novelization is obviously at odds with what we see on screen and you must contend that even if everything else in that quote is wrong (dropping weapons, falling to knees) then at least the choking is true. The screenplay lines up with my view of the scene and rather than being “less specific” as you say, simply describes something very different from the novel. I don’t begrudge the inferences you wish to draw from the scene, but I think it is way more ambiguous than many are willing to accept.

But the screenplays out there are condensed versions. Most of the stage directions etc are missing. Things are also changed during filming. But How anyone can not see that it is a force choke ( with the guards making CLEAR chocking sounds and grabbing their throats , although one struggles to get his hand in the right position due to the size and padding of the suit) is beyond me. Sorry, but you can’t deny they are choking. It’s as clear as day.

And Mark saying Luke wouldn’t do the force choke was off a quick question and answer vid. He just forgot (which he admitted after). After all this is the guy who has admitted that he hasn’t watched the films outside of their premieres.

ANH:REVISITED
ESB:REVISITED

DONATIONS TOWARDS MATERIALS FOR THE REVISITED SAGA

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TV’s Frink said:

Mrebo said:

TV’s Frink said:

I will never understand how gurgling noises and putting your hands up to your throat/chest area could be considered “going to sleep.” You clearly sleep differently than pretty much any other person.

That’s obviously not what I’ve been saying. They ultimately go to sleep. I don’t think it’s super important what Luke is doing there, though I understand some of you read all kinds of foreshadowing into it. If we got answers from the people playing the GGs that they were being choked, okay. But a split second halting pig noise and hands going to the chest/neck with a vague hand gesture isn’t so obviously choking. The fleeting moment doesn’t seem to have meant to carry the import some attach anyway.

So wait, what are you saying then? It’s not obvious to me at all.

I thought you said Luke did a mind trick to make them go to sleep.

The way I’ve viewed the scene, as have others notwithstanding your disbelief, is that Luke used his powers to cause them to lower their weapons, step away and then fall into sleep against the wall. I never gave it all kinds of thought about the precise mechanics used. I do know that if you construct a scene of somebody choking someone it would probably be the way described in the novel, and maybe have Luke’s hand closing like Vader’s. Again, I can say it is possible that he was doing some choking. In watching the scene, the fleeting gestures and noises (from pig people composed of seemingly cumbersome costumes) isn’t so totally obviously choking.

The blue elephant in the room.