The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 106

TV’s Frink said:

Handman said:

TV’s Frink said:

Handman said:

TV’s Frink said:

Handman said:

TV’s Frink said:

The issue is unequal treatment of equal male and female characters.

But are they (Rey and Luke, I assume) the same? I hardly think so.

At the risk of continuing a debate that I have to keep pointing out has been debated endlessly on this site for two years now, I never said they’re the same at all. And I have no interest in whatever that video is trying to say.

Okay, then why are we arguing? To use your own argument, those statements are at odds with one another. And I’ll dismiss anything you say to justify it.

Cool story, other than the fact that I don’t even know what you’re trying to say. But that’s ok because I don’t care. For the millionth time, the Mary Sue debate is endless, pointless, and worthless.

You said they were being unequally treated based on gender alone, which I disagree with. If you didn’t want to bring up that debate, then you shouldn’t have said that. Easy. But this is hardly the thread for serious discussion.

Go back and read what I said again.

"The issue is unequal treatment of equal male and female characters."
If Rey and Luke are not equal, if they are not being unequally treated based on gender, then that statement has no relevance.

Handman said:

TV’s Frink said:

Handman said:

TV’s Frink said:

Handman said:

TV’s Frink said:

Handman said:

TV’s Frink said:

The issue is unequal treatment of equal male and female characters.

But are they (Rey and Luke, I assume) the same? I hardly think so.

At the risk of continuing a debate that I have to keep pointing out has been debated endlessly on this site for two years now, I never said they’re the same at all. And I have no interest in whatever that video is trying to say.

Okay, then why are we arguing? To use your own argument, those statements are at odds with one another. And I’ll dismiss anything you say to justify it.

Cool story, other than the fact that I don’t even know what you’re trying to say. But that’s ok because I don’t care. For the millionth time, the Mary Sue debate is endless, pointless, and worthless.

You said they were being unequally treated based on gender alone, which I disagree with. If you didn’t want to bring up that debate, then you shouldn’t have said that. Easy. But this is hardly the thread for serious discussion.

Go back and read what I said again.

"The issue is unequal treatment of equal male and female characters."
If Rey and Luke are not equal, if they are not being unequally treated based on gender, then that statement has no relevance.

Go back and read the whole conversation now, including everything I said, not just focusing on the one sentence.

SilverWook said:

Handman said:

lovelikewinter said:

Does the Darth Sidous reference annoy anyone else? I wonder if there is a take with Mark Hamill saying “The Emperor” instead.

It annoys me too.

Where Sith are concerned does one refer to them by their public disguise name, their true Sith name, or the title they bestowed upon themselves as they crushed the galaxy for two decades? Luke calling him the Emperor now that he’s dead and gone would be honoring a despot.

It’s a prequel reference, and I don’t like those. The line would have made just as much sense without it. Also who told Luke? It’s weird coming out of his mouth.

oojason said:

Warbler said:

oojason said:

Warbler said:

oojason said:

Warbler said:

Rey won a lightsaber fight without any training at all. This indicates that she is special and incredibly strong in the force and it begs for an explanation.

When was this lightsabre fight?

In TFA.

You are referring to the sabre fight vs Ren in TFA - where he was already injured from Chewbacca’s powerful crossbow shot, was bleeding from it, also taking a hit from his sabre fight with Finn, and also felt conflicted & weak over just killing his father? In a fight in which the aim was not to kill Rey - but to bring her to Snoke… a fight in which he actually offered to be her teacher… and in which Rey was on the backfoot for nearly all of it before ‘letting the force in’…

Rey didn’t win the lightsabre fight at all… even after ‘letting the force in’ as it were - though she had gained the upper hand by scarring him & put him on his arse - yet the fight was broken up by the planet coming apart…

Um, she did win the fight. The only reason he survived or wasn’t taken prisoner is because of the planet coming apart.

No, he’s just on his arse. There was no winner due to the planet coming apart.

Go watch the fight again. He was on ass before the planet came apart. He was on the ground helpless for 15 seconds before the planet came apart and they were separated. She won the fight.

Look this and tell me she didn’t win the fight:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJTz-ahXyyI&feature=youtu.be&t=4m18s

 

She may well be special and strong with the force - Snoke’s on-screen ascertain to Rey that… ‘So much strength. Darkness rises and light to meet it’ & ‘I warned my young apprentice that as he grew stronger that the equal in the light would rise’ (and his mistaken assumption that was Luke - not Rey) is a statement of this. That you choose to ignore this as an explanation is on you.

As I said, I buy that explanation because this thing of the equal of the light rising wasn’t shown or referred to in any of the other movies.

Things evolve and change over the course of these films - that they aren’t mentioned or shown previously does not negate them. That it is mentioned on-screen - whether you agree, dislike, or ‘buy’ it - does not negate it.

Either it is a thing that exists or it doesn’t. If it exists what are the odds something like wouldn’t be mentioned at all?
It didn’t happen the PT, It didn’t happen between Luke and Vader. It is not mentioned at all in any previous film. That is the problem when you decide to invent something new, you have to account for its absence in the prior films. I don’t the evolve and change stuff. Either this is something the force does or it doesn’t.

If you want to ignore an explanation then go ahead and ignore it - but don’t then state there wasn’t one / or that it then ‘begs for an explanation’.

Maybe I should have said “begs for a better explanation”.

DrDre said:

oojason said:

Warbler said:

oojason said:

Warbler said:

oojason said:

Warbler said:

Rey won a lightsaber fight without any training at all. This indicates that she is special and incredibly strong in the force and it begs for an explanation.

When was this lightsabre fight?

In TFA.

You are referring to the sabre fight vs Ren in TFA - where he was already injured from Chewbacca’s powerful crossbow shot, was bleeding from it, also taking a hit from his sabre fight with Finn, and also felt conflicted & weak over just killing his father? In a fight in which the aim was not to kill Rey - but to bring her to Snoke… a fight in which he actually offered to be her teacher… and in which Rey was on the backfoot for nearly all of it before ‘letting the force in’…

Rey didn’t win the lightsabre fight at all… even after ‘letting the force in’ as it were - though she had gained the upper hand by scarring him & put him on his arse - yet the fight was broken up by the planet coming apart…

Um, she did win the fight. The only reason he survived or wasn’t taken prisoner is because of the planet coming apart.

No, he’s just on his arse. There was no winner due to the planet coming apart.

 

She may well be special and strong with the force - Snoke’s on-screen ascertain to Rey that… ‘So much strength. Darkness rises and light to meet it’ & ‘I warned my young apprentice that as he grew stronger that the equal in the light would rise’ (and his mistaken assumption that was Luke - not Rey) is a statement of this. That you choose to ignore this as an explanation is on you.

As I said, I buy that explanation because this thing of the equal of the light rising wasn’t shown or referred to in any of the other movies.

Things evolve and change over the course of these films - that they aren’t mentioned or shown previously does not negate them. That it is mentioned on-screen - whether you agree, dislike, or ‘buy’ it - does not negate it.

If you want to ignore an explanation then go ahead and ignore it - but don’t then state there wasn’t one / or that it then ‘begs for an explanation’.

Well if the explanation is argued to make no sense in the context of what came before or to be underdeveloped, than it does negate the explanation in the eyes of the beholder. That’s what we’re debating here I think.

exactly.

TV’s Frink said:

Handman said:

TV’s Frink said:

Handman said:

TV’s Frink said:

Handman said:

TV’s Frink said:

Handman said:

TV’s Frink said:

The issue is unequal treatment of equal male and female characters.

But are they (Rey and Luke, I assume) the same? I hardly think so.

At the risk of continuing a debate that I have to keep pointing out has been debated endlessly on this site for two years now, I never said they’re the same at all. And I have no interest in whatever that video is trying to say.

Okay, then why are we arguing? To use your own argument, those statements are at odds with one another. And I’ll dismiss anything you say to justify it.

Cool story, other than the fact that I don’t even know what you’re trying to say. But that’s ok because I don’t care. For the millionth time, the Mary Sue debate is endless, pointless, and worthless.

You said they were being unequally treated based on gender alone, which I disagree with. If you didn’t want to bring up that debate, then you shouldn’t have said that. Easy. But this is hardly the thread for serious discussion.

Go back and read what I said again.

"The issue is unequal treatment of equal male and female characters."
If Rey and Luke are not equal, if they are not being unequally treated based on gender, then that statement has no relevance.

Go back and read the whole conversation now, including everything I said, not just focusing on the one sentence.

I don’t want to touch a debate revolving around what terms are offensive to some and not to others. There’s nothing to gain there.

Ok, but your statements make no sense because you’re claiming I said things I never said, and removing context from the things I actually did say.

oojason said:

DrDre said:

oojason said:

Warbler said:

oojason said:

Warbler said:

oojason said:

Warbler said:

Rey won a lightsaber fight without any training at all. This indicates that she is special and incredibly strong in the force and it begs for an explanation.

When was this lightsabre fight?

In TFA.

You are referring to the sabre fight vs Ren in TFA - where he was already injured from Chewbacca’s powerful crossbow shot, was bleeding from it, also taking a hit from his sabre fight with Finn, and also felt conflicted & weak over just killing his father? In a fight in which the aim was not to kill Rey - but to bring her to Snoke… a fight in which he actually offered to be her teacher… and in which Rey was on the backfoot for nearly all of it before ‘letting the force in’…

Rey didn’t win the lightsabre fight at all… even after ‘letting the force in’ as it were - though she had gained the upper hand by scarring him & put him on his arse - yet the fight was broken up by the planet coming apart…

Um, she did win the fight. The only reason he survived or wasn’t taken prisoner is because of the planet coming apart.

No, he’s just on his arse. There was no winner due to the planet coming apart.

 

She may well be special and strong with the force - Snoke’s on-screen ascertain to Rey that… ‘So much strength. Darkness rises and light to meet it’ & ‘I warned my young apprentice that as he grew stronger that the equal in the light would rise’ (and his mistaken assumption that was Luke - not Rey) is a statement of this. That you choose to ignore this as an explanation is on you.

As I said, I buy that explanation because this thing of the equal of the light rising wasn’t shown or referred to in any of the other movies.

Things evolve and change over the course of these films - that they aren’t mentioned or shown previously does not negate them. That it is mentioned on-screen - whether you agree, dislike, or ‘buy’ it - does not negate it.

If you want to ignore an explanation then go ahead and ignore it - but don’t then state there wasn’t one / or that it then ‘begs for an explanation’.

Well if the explanation is argued to make no sense in the context of what came before or to be underdeveloped, than it does negate the explanation in the eyes of the beholder. That’s what we’re debating here I think.

The ‘balance’ in the force is a theme (and it’s interpretation) that has run through the films. That light rises to meet darkness or darkness rises to meet the light is hardly anything new in TLJ - or underdeveloped previously.

If that so, Luke should have been Vader’s (or maybe Palpatine’s) equal in TESB.

Mocata said:

DrDre said:
Either way none of the films suggested balance of the Force implies dark and light balancing each other, and dark rising to balance light or vicd versa. In any case this interpretation has been debunked by Lucas himself.

To be fair this is inconsistent in the prequels like everything else. Lucas is hardly creating a fully developed canon ahead of time for later film makers to reference. In TPM they say the Sith were extinct, and the boy could just be “the one”. Then in (I think ROTS) this changes suddenly when Obi-wan says Anakin was destined to create balance by “destroying the Sith”. Who were extinct.

I agree, and I never really liked the Chosen One/balance angle, since it was little more than a plot device, and pretty underdeveloped.

I was actually fine with Rey’s depiction in TFA, and accepted that she was able to figure some things out for herself. She initially failed in using the Jedi mind trick, and Kylo Ren was seriously injured, and I expected her to be trained by Luke in TLJ, but in the end all she got from Luke were a couple of incomplete lessons, and some books, and despite this her Force powers continued to grow to the extend, that she beat Luke in a duel, saved Kylo in their battle with Snoke’s guards, and moved a ton of rocks with ease. That’s where I checked out.

Handman said:

SilverWook said:

Handman said:

lovelikewinter said:

Does the Darth Sidous reference annoy anyone else? I wonder if there is a take with Mark Hamill saying “The Emperor” instead.

It annoys me too.

Where Sith are concerned does one refer to them by their public disguise name, their true Sith name, or the title they bestowed upon themselves as they crushed the galaxy for two decades? Luke calling him the Emperor now that he’s dead and gone would be honoring a despot.

It’s a prequel reference, and I don’t like those. The line would have made just as much sense without it. Also who told Luke? It’s weird coming out of his mouth.

This I actually agree with. If I were to make a light edit of TLJ this is one of the things I’d probably snip out.

DrDre said:

Porkins4real said:

DrDre said:

Mocata said:

DrDre said:
Yeah, but that just a way of bypassing the argument.

By weighing up the things we see on screen and coming to a rational conclusion? TFA aside what does she do in TLJ that makes her so perfect? Screw everything up and give Kylo a swanky throne? Made of solid gold? I don’t get it. Then again we had a whole debate about how Luke never choked anyone, so who knows what powers of inference anybody has these days. So many angry people.

I wasn’t part of the Luke Force choke debate, sorry.

Given Mark Hammill believe Luke never used Force Choke we can put that debate to bed.

I personally allways interpreted the scene as signifying Luke’s a darker character now, and more like his father than he might think. So, to me that allways was a case of Luke using a Force choke, but if Hamill or anyone else sees it differently, I suppose only George Lucas has the answer. The ROTJ screenplay doesn’t speak of a Force choke, so you may very well be right.

anyone know exactly what the screenplay says in that scene?

DrDre said:

in the end all she got from Luke were a couple of incomplete lessons, and some books

Sounds like Luke in the OT, minus the books. :p

Warbler said:

DrDre said:

Porkins4real said:

DrDre said:

Mocata said:

DrDre said:
Yeah, but that just a way of bypassing the argument.

By weighing up the things we see on screen and coming to a rational conclusion? TFA aside what does she do in TLJ that makes her so perfect? Screw everything up and give Kylo a swanky throne? Made of solid gold? I don’t get it. Then again we had a whole debate about how Luke never choked anyone, so who knows what powers of inference anybody has these days. So many angry people.

I wasn’t part of the Luke Force choke debate, sorry.

Given Mark Hammill believe Luke never used Force Choke we can put that debate to bed.

I personally allways interpreted the scene as signifying Luke’s a darker character now, and more like his father than he might think. So, to me that allways was a case of Luke using a Force choke, but if Hamill or anyone else sees it differently, I suppose only George Lucas has the answer. The ROTJ screenplay doesn’t speak of a Force choke, so you may very well be right.

anyone know exactly what the screenplay says in that scene?

It doesn’t matter. What matters is what’s on the screen, and they’re clearly being choked. They make gurgling sounds and put their hands up to their throats.

Why is this still a debate?

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

Possessed said:

Warbler said:

Rey won a lightsaber fight without any training at all. This indicates that she is special and incredibly strong in the force and it begs for an explanation.

The explanation is chewie had just shot kylo ren with his crossbow and he was quite injured. You can even see blood falling out of his suit in several shots.

Sorry, I don’t buy it. Yeah he was injured, but it was still someone trained against someone untrained.

Obviously the only way to test this is for you to go get trained in the Force, dahmaged will shoot you in the side, and then you and I will have a lightsaber fight. Let’s do this.

^ silly.

Let me know when you come up with a better way to prove you’re right and I’m wrong about that scene.

Let me know when lightsabers and the force become real and then we’ll see.

“That is why you fail.”

I don’t get it.

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

in the end all she got from Luke were a couple of incomplete lessons, and some books

Sounds like Luke, minus the books. :p

Luke gave her 1/2 lesson, which amounted to not much more than Obi-Wan’s lecture in Obi-Wan’s cabin, and another history lesson about the Jedi and the phony legend Luke Skywalker. I think Luke learned a little more with Yoda than that. I seem to remember something about levitation, luminous beings, and the dark side and such, but I could be mistaken. 😉

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

Possessed said:

Warbler said:

Rey won a lightsaber fight without any training at all. This indicates that she is special and incredibly strong in the force and it begs for an explanation.

The explanation is chewie had just shot kylo ren with his crossbow and he was quite injured. You can even see blood falling out of his suit in several shots.

Sorry, I don’t buy it. Yeah he was injured, but it was still someone trained against someone untrained.

Obviously the only way to test this is for you to go get trained in the Force, dahmaged will shoot you in the side, and then you and I will have a lightsaber fight. Let’s do this.

^ silly.

Let me know when you come up with a better way to prove you’re right and I’m wrong about that scene.

Let me know when lightsabers and the force become real and then we’ll see.

“That is why you fail.”

I don’t get it.

They’re real.

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

Possessed said:

Warbler said:

Rey won a lightsaber fight without any training at all. This indicates that she is special and incredibly strong in the force and it begs for an explanation.

The explanation is chewie had just shot kylo ren with his crossbow and he was quite injured. You can even see blood falling out of his suit in several shots.

Sorry, I don’t buy it. Yeah he was injured, but it was still someone trained against someone untrained.

Obviously the only way to test this is for you to go get trained in the Force, dahmaged will shoot you in the side, and then you and I will have a lightsaber fight. Let’s do this.

^ silly.

Let me know when you come up with a better way to prove you’re right and I’m wrong about that scene.

Let me know when lightsabers and the force become real and then we’ll see.

“That is why you fail.”

I don’t get it.

They’re real.

This is true

TV’s Frink said:

Handman said:

TV’s Frink said:

The issue is unequal treatment of equal male and female characters.

But are they (Rey and Luke, I assume) the same? I hardly think so.

At the risk of continuing a debate that I have to keep pointing out has been debated endlessly on this site for two years now, I never said they’re the same at all. And I have no interest in whatever that video is trying to say.

it is really annoying that you deliberately refuse to consider evidence.

DrDre said:
in the end all she got from Luke were a couple of incomplete lessons, and some books, and despite this her Force powers continued to grow to the extend, that she beat Luke in a duel, saved Kylo in their battle with Snoke’s guards, and moved a ton of rocks with ease. That’s where I checked out.

Well in theory the Force is something you just need to have faith in. Luke didn’t even know what it was while Rey had this grand idea of it in her mind already. She moved a few rocks, because she heard that was a thing. I don’t think anything she did came naturally, it was more imitation. As for the battles, I’d have to rewatch but it seemed with Luke he was old and without any Force connections, and in the throne room they were struggling by the end and had to work together.