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The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 97

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Time

Collipso said:

Let’s break down Luke vs. Vader in RotJ:

  • Luke ignites his saber and tries to kill the Emperor after he toyed with Luke’s emotions, which clearly are one of his great weakness and everyone knows it. “Bury your feelings deep down Luke…”
  • Vader then defends the Emperor and Luke consumed by rage and hatred viciously attacks him, until he realizes it’s a mistake then he stops.
  • Luke refuses to fight Vader, defending and evading only
  • Vader teases Luke and triggers Luke by mentioning Leia
  • Luke again is consumed by rage but ultimately overcomes the dark side and doesn’t kill his dad.

What did Luke learn?

  • That the dark side is overcomeable, because both him and his father did so.
  • He has to gain more control over his emotions.

What did we learn in TLJ?

  • Luke’s nephew, whom he loves and has known his entire life, is being tempted by the dark side as a teenager.
  • Luke then goes to him in the middle of the night and his instincts tell him to kill Ben.

wait what?? what about all of Luke’s failures and how he grew in the OT and all he learned about overcoming darkness? Why isn’t he passing that forward?

He didn’t act like his RotJ self would, but most importantly, like any regular human being that progresses naturally under given circumstances would.

Luke in RotJ only attacked to protect something or someone, but he did it the wrong way, using the dark side.

And how did the Luke that knew that defying all expectations and odds can pay off simply gave up on the galaxy and the ways of the force?

I don’t buy it 😕

Neither do I.

But I think the response is twofold:

  1. People change in 34 years.
  2. Anybody can have a moment of madness (as in really out of one’s mind), especially if precipitated by staring into an abyss of evil.

Although people keeping repeating the first, I don’t find it persuasive because we have no reason to know why or how Luke changed for the worse in the first 30 of those years before Ben’s temptation was discovered. For some, not knowing is sufficient reason to accept any change in Luke whatsoever. I don’t find it sufficient cover for weakness in storytelling.

The second is more persuasive but doesn’t explain why Luke gave up. It suggests, I suppose, that in the first 30 years Luke really didn’t develop except for the worse.

The blue elephant in the room.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

adywan said:

DrDre said:

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

Warbler said:

Possessed said:

You do make a good point.

I disagree.

What happened to Obi-Wan and Yoda:

  • Jedi purge aided by Obi-Wan’s former apprentice now Darth Vader
  • Galactic Empire takes over the galaxy
  • Yoda and Obi-Wan face off against Sidious and Vader despite terrible odds
  • Yoda fights Sidious to a stalemate and is forced to flee, as troops arrive
  • Obi-Wan defeats Vader, leaving him for dead
  • Obi-Wan and Yoda are now hunted by the Empire, branded traitors with the approval of the Senate, and are forced into hiding
  • Obi-Wan and Yoda hide Luke and Leia
  • It takes twenty years for the Rebel Alliance to become a significant threat to the Empire’s powerbase
  • Leia asks Obi-Wan for help in their most desparate hour, Obi-Wan answers their call

What happened to Luke:

  • Luke’s Jedi Academy is destroyed by his former apprentice partly caused by Luke’s unfortunate mistake
  • New Republic controls most of the galaxy
  • FO is growing in power, but at this point still a fringe government
  • Despite the fact that there’s still plenty of opportunity to stop the FO with the help of the Resistance and the Republic fleet, Luke doesn’t even try, and goes into exile, leaving everything behind
  • In Luke’s absence the FO grows in power to the point, that it is able to destroy the Republic capital and take over the galaxy
  • Luke refuses to help even after his sister Leia through Rey informs him of their situation, and his best friend has been murdered

Except let’s look at what is going on in each instance. In the PT (or even the OT backstory prior to the PT), the Empire has taken over, the Jedi have been hunted down. Ben and Yoda are in hiding. Waiting for something. They have hope that something will change.

Luke has just had his entire new order of Jedi wiped out (either killed or turned to the dark side). We don’t really know how many, but it wasn’t a lot. The facility is wiped out and the leader is none other than his own nephew. He fears that if he trains anyone else, the same thing will happen again. And Snoke and the Knights of Ren make a force that he does not have the power to combat. He would not kill his father in ROTJ so I’m sure he would not kill his nephew.

So the situations are vastly different in terms of what is at stake personally. Also remember, that Ben and Yoda were fully trained Jedi masters. They had learned to put their emotions behind them. When did Luke learn that lesson. We see in ROTJ that he is still prone to letting his emotions take control. He uses that to defeat Vader. As Johnson writes the lines for Luke to speak, he is also addressing fans who have idolized Luke and made him into something that the movies don’t show. The movies never show him attaining true Jedi mastery of his emotions and feelings. And the events that led to his self imposed exile in the ST are ones that, given the character traits shown and mentioned in the OT, would lead him to do exactly what he did. Luke was never perfect, only very determined. He used the Jedi training he had been taught and it failed his padawans. The same way it failed Kenobi in training Anakin. Luke sees that failing but does not know how to correct it. I saw it quite clearly in the PT that Lucas was showing that it wasn’t Kenobi or Yoda who failed, but the Jedi teachings. We are back to that. The Old Republic Jedi order had a major flaw - they didn’t teach their padawan how to avoid the temptation of the dark side. They just said don’t start down that path. They had gotten to a point where they denied attachments because it might lead that way instead of teaching how to avoid and resist the temptation. It is like teaching abstinence instead contraception to avoid teen pregnancies. It doesn’t work. Both Ben Solo and Anakin needed teachings that the Jedi didn’t have and that Luke doesn’t have.

Luke had three choices after Kylo turned. He could go after Kylo Ren and defeat him and the other dark ones. He could build a new order of Jedi to combat them - but the conflict would come eventually and there was no certainty that the new students wouldn’t be cut down or turned like the previous batch. Or he could decide not to kill and go into hiding. Staying and helping Leia really wasn’t an option because Snoke was already there and he would be expected to train new Jedi. And that is what he now fears. Luke rightly sees the Jedi order as flawed. He has given up instead of finding a way to fix it. And if you go back and watch the original, what he did is exactly in keeping with his character traits as established in the OT.

Sorry this really makes no sense to me. Luke refuses to train more Jedi, because he might fail. In stead he allows Snoke to take Ben Solo and to create any number of dark Force users. So, rather than take a risk, which may lead to a victory for the good guys, he opts for certain doom by doing nothing.

If Luke does nothing, the galaxy will be plunged into a second darkness, as there’s nobody to stand in Snoke’s way. If Luke tries to stop Snoke and Kylo, he might prevail, and then retire the Jedi Order, or he might be killed resulting in the end of the Jedi. Doing nothing obvioysly is the worst choice. Luke would be stupid for not being able to deduce this.

This is absolutely not in keeping with Luke’s character, who went on a suicide mission to destroy the Death Star even without significant knowledge of the Force.

Really? Remember in TESB, “I can’t, its too big” of trying to lift his X-wing out of the swamp? And Luke didn’t lead a suicide mission on the death Star. He was one of 30 pilots. And Luke’s failure was huge. He failed Han and Leia, not just Ben and the other students. And with retreat after failure already in him, such a huge setback could easily bring that out again. It is very in keeping with is personality as the OT presented it, though not as the Expended Universe built him up or as many fans have come to see him. This movie really restored humanity to Luke.

Only if you deny Luke’s character development from the moment he failed to lift the X-wing. Discovering Darth Vader is his father, shattered everything Luke believed in. Yet, he overcame it, and ultimately became a Jedi, and redeemed his father.

Additionally the fact that he even for a moment thought about killing his nephew to the point that he activated his lightsaber, when his nephew had done nothing, but be tempted by the dark side, is just not credible. Luke refused to even fight is father, a man who was everything Luke feared his nephew might become and worse. The Luke of ROTJ would have attempted to redeem his nephew, not murder him in his sleep.

Who ignited and swung their saber first? Luke.

After Palpatine had goaded him, and his friends and allies were in real mortal danger. As I stated before ROTJ sets up Luke losing his composure over multiple scenes. TLJ gives us only a single short scene with a Force vision of something that might happen. It’s not the same thing. If TLJ had set up Kylo as being a real danger to Luke’s students, by hurting one of them, it might have worked for me. As it is now Luke’s terrified of a dream, when he kept his cool for a long time in the face of real danger before.

“Terrified of a dream” and not facing any real danger from it is just your interpretation and not supported by anything in the movie.

There’s nothing in the film, that suggest Ben Solo presented an immediate threat. Luke suggests Snoke had won Kylo’s heart, but he mentions only dark thoughts, and not a single incident of Ben using the dark side against the other students or himself. If anything the film suggests it was Luke himself who tipped the scale, and caused Ben to go beserk.

““I saw darkness. I’d sensed it building in him. I’d seen it in moments during his training. But then i looked inside. And it was beyond what i ever imagined ( then you hear lightsabers and screaming). Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction and pain and death and the end of everything that i loved because of what he would become. And in the briefest moment of pure instinct i thought i could stop it. It passed like a fleeting shadow. And i was left with shame. And with consequence. And the last thing i saw were the eyes of a frightened boy who’s master had failed him.””

You hear the use of lightsabers and lots of screaming as Luke is seeing the vision of the destruction Kylo would cause and Luke’s pained and terrified expression says it all. Everything you needed to know was in that scene, both visually and descriptively.

So Luke acted like TESB Luke would’ve acted, denying all the growth the character should’ve had and had on screen and off screen? I don’t really buy it. I almost buy it solely because of Mark Hamill, but the more I think of it, the less I like it.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

oojason said:

Get over yourself.

Anyway…

See Rule 2 - ‘Don’t attack other members personally. When debating, argue the point, not the person’ - as ray_afraid said previously, it is a personal attack on those who do enjoy them.

I suggest you heed the rule.

 

And also, lose the attitude.

I don’t have an attitude. You threatened me and (incorrectly) said I was trolling people, when it’s obvious I wasn’t. Someone else posted a disingenuous meme that I rebutted with logic. If you like the movie you like it, if you don’t like it you don’t like it, but some people can’t let any slight go unanswered, even if they have to do mental gymnastics to make dishonest points.

At the objection of another user, I did go back and qualify my statement by saying not all people who like the movie are that way. Of course that’s true, and I regret that in my haste I implied otherwise.

If you had politely pointed out my improper generalization, I would have quickly agreed with you. Don’t you think?

But rudeness without an any effort at discourse is usually a sign of contempt.
Is it the user name, or the hatred of TLJ and Disney? Just curious.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

adywan said:

DrDre said:

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

Warbler said:

Possessed said:

You do make a good point.

I disagree.

What happened to Obi-Wan and Yoda:

  • Jedi purge aided by Obi-Wan’s former apprentice now Darth Vader
  • Galactic Empire takes over the galaxy
  • Yoda and Obi-Wan face off against Sidious and Vader despite terrible odds
  • Yoda fights Sidious to a stalemate and is forced to flee, as troops arrive
  • Obi-Wan defeats Vader, leaving him for dead
  • Obi-Wan and Yoda are now hunted by the Empire, branded traitors with the approval of the Senate, and are forced into hiding
  • Obi-Wan and Yoda hide Luke and Leia
  • It takes twenty years for the Rebel Alliance to become a significant threat to the Empire’s powerbase
  • Leia asks Obi-Wan for help in their most desparate hour, Obi-Wan answers their call

What happened to Luke:

  • Luke’s Jedi Academy is destroyed by his former apprentice partly caused by Luke’s unfortunate mistake
  • New Republic controls most of the galaxy
  • FO is growing in power, but at this point still a fringe government
  • Despite the fact that there’s still plenty of opportunity to stop the FO with the help of the Resistance and the Republic fleet, Luke doesn’t even try, and goes into exile, leaving everything behind
  • In Luke’s absence the FO grows in power to the point, that it is able to destroy the Republic capital and take over the galaxy
  • Luke refuses to help even after his sister Leia through Rey informs him of their situation, and his best friend has been murdered

Except let’s look at what is going on in each instance. In the PT (or even the OT backstory prior to the PT), the Empire has taken over, the Jedi have been hunted down. Ben and Yoda are in hiding. Waiting for something. They have hope that something will change.

Luke has just had his entire new order of Jedi wiped out (either killed or turned to the dark side). We don’t really know how many, but it wasn’t a lot. The facility is wiped out and the leader is none other than his own nephew. He fears that if he trains anyone else, the same thing will happen again. And Snoke and the Knights of Ren make a force that he does not have the power to combat. He would not kill his father in ROTJ so I’m sure he would not kill his nephew.

So the situations are vastly different in terms of what is at stake personally. Also remember, that Ben and Yoda were fully trained Jedi masters. They had learned to put their emotions behind them. When did Luke learn that lesson. We see in ROTJ that he is still prone to letting his emotions take control. He uses that to defeat Vader. As Johnson writes the lines for Luke to speak, he is also addressing fans who have idolized Luke and made him into something that the movies don’t show. The movies never show him attaining true Jedi mastery of his emotions and feelings. And the events that led to his self imposed exile in the ST are ones that, given the character traits shown and mentioned in the OT, would lead him to do exactly what he did. Luke was never perfect, only very determined. He used the Jedi training he had been taught and it failed his padawans. The same way it failed Kenobi in training Anakin. Luke sees that failing but does not know how to correct it. I saw it quite clearly in the PT that Lucas was showing that it wasn’t Kenobi or Yoda who failed, but the Jedi teachings. We are back to that. The Old Republic Jedi order had a major flaw - they didn’t teach their padawan how to avoid the temptation of the dark side. They just said don’t start down that path. They had gotten to a point where they denied attachments because it might lead that way instead of teaching how to avoid and resist the temptation. It is like teaching abstinence instead contraception to avoid teen pregnancies. It doesn’t work. Both Ben Solo and Anakin needed teachings that the Jedi didn’t have and that Luke doesn’t have.

Luke had three choices after Kylo turned. He could go after Kylo Ren and defeat him and the other dark ones. He could build a new order of Jedi to combat them - but the conflict would come eventually and there was no certainty that the new students wouldn’t be cut down or turned like the previous batch. Or he could decide not to kill and go into hiding. Staying and helping Leia really wasn’t an option because Snoke was already there and he would be expected to train new Jedi. And that is what he now fears. Luke rightly sees the Jedi order as flawed. He has given up instead of finding a way to fix it. And if you go back and watch the original, what he did is exactly in keeping with his character traits as established in the OT.

Sorry this really makes no sense to me. Luke refuses to train more Jedi, because he might fail. In stead he allows Snoke to take Ben Solo and to create any number of dark Force users. So, rather than take a risk, which may lead to a victory for the good guys, he opts for certain doom by doing nothing.

If Luke does nothing, the galaxy will be plunged into a second darkness, as there’s nobody to stand in Snoke’s way. If Luke tries to stop Snoke and Kylo, he might prevail, and then retire the Jedi Order, or he might be killed resulting in the end of the Jedi. Doing nothing obvioysly is the worst choice. Luke would be stupid for not being able to deduce this.

This is absolutely not in keeping with Luke’s character, who went on a suicide mission to destroy the Death Star even without significant knowledge of the Force.

Really? Remember in TESB, “I can’t, its too big” of trying to lift his X-wing out of the swamp? And Luke didn’t lead a suicide mission on the death Star. He was one of 30 pilots. And Luke’s failure was huge. He failed Han and Leia, not just Ben and the other students. And with retreat after failure already in him, such a huge setback could easily bring that out again. It is very in keeping with is personality as the OT presented it, though not as the Expended Universe built him up or as many fans have come to see him. This movie really restored humanity to Luke.

Only if you deny Luke’s character development from the moment he failed to lift the X-wing. Discovering Darth Vader is his father, shattered everything Luke believed in. Yet, he overcame it, and ultimately became a Jedi, and redeemed his father.

Additionally the fact that he even for a moment thought about killing his nephew to the point that he activated his lightsaber, when his nephew had done nothing, but be tempted by the dark side, is just not credible. Luke refused to even fight is father, a man who was everything Luke feared his nephew might become and worse. The Luke of ROTJ would have attempted to redeem his nephew, not murder him in his sleep.

Who ignited and swung their saber first? Luke.

After Palpatine had goaded him, and his friends and allies were in real mortal danger. As I stated before ROTJ sets up Luke losing his composure over multiple scenes. TLJ gives us only a single short scene with a Force vision of something that might happen. It’s not the same thing. If TLJ had set up Kylo as being a real danger to Luke’s students, by hurting one of them, it might have worked for me. As it is now Luke’s terrified of a dream, when he kept his cool for a long time in the face of real danger before.

“Terrified of a dream” and not facing any real danger from it is just your interpretation and not supported by anything in the movie.

There’s nothing in the film, that suggest Ben Solo presented an immediate threat. Luke suggests Snoke had won Kylo’s heart, but he mentions only dark thoughts, and not a single incident of Ben using the dark side against the other students or himself. If anything the film suggests it was Luke himself who tipped the scale, and caused Ben to go beserk.

““I saw darkness. I’d sensed it building in him. I’d seen it in moments during his training. But then i looked inside. And it was beyond what i ever imagined ( then you hear lightsabers and screaming). Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction and pain and death and the end of everything that i loved because of what he would become. And in the briefest moment of pure instinct i thought i could stop it. It passed like a fleeting shadow. And i was left with shame. And with consequence. And the last thing i saw were the eyes of a frightened boy who’s master had failed him.””

You hear the use of lightsabers and lots of screaming as Luke is seeing the vision of the destruction Kylo would cause and Luke’s pained and terrified expression says it all. Everything you needed to know was in that scene, both visually and descriptively.

A single 30 second scene, which has Luke telling us about a bad vision is not a proper set up. Show not tell still remains the best technique. Having Luke tell us about growing darkness as we see Ben sleeping in his bed is not the way to go in my view. We should have witnessed Ben Solo’s growing darkness, as he threatens Luke’s students, such that we can see for ourselves the threat that Luke percieves. That’s the way it was effectively done in ROTJ, amd that’s the way it should have been done in TLJ.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

TV’s Frink said:

We don’t even know what he saw. It could have been so bad it was clear there was no saving Ben. Maybe it was a likely future. And he had a moment of weakness, and then he came through it. If you don’t think he can have a one second lapse in judgement, then yes, you think he should be perfect.

He says he saw the destruction of everything he knew and loved. After 25 years of building and rebuilding the Jedi and the New Republic and reaching that utopia we all imagined happened after ROTJ, it’s easy to understand why he’d be so worried about it all being lost to the dark side once again. He saw killing Ben as a quick and easy solution to that potential disaster (and remember Ben wasn’t totally innocent at this point, he was already under the influence of Snoke so it wasn’t just a vision).

The quick and easy solution is obviously the way of the dark side though, but Luke will always have a bit of the dark side in him, the struggle isn’t just resisting it once and you’re all done. It’s a constant struggle, and in this moment he came just a little too close to not resisting it, and it cost him dearly. I find it a very compelling and human story for a character who should be very compelling and human and yes, imperfect.

Again ROTJ sets up Luke losing his cool by letting the viewer experience Luke’s struggles, as he witnesses his friends and allies getting killed. TLJ doesn’t do this. It doesn’t even try to show the threat of young Ben Solo, and how Luke came to fear this young boy. Had we witnessed Luke’s vision or had we been given some set up, where we see one of Luke’s student’s get hurt as Kylo gives in to the dark side, we might have better understood Luke’s reaction. However, the movie appears to be mostly interested in showing Luke’s failure in the face of some scary vision, rather than a proper setup.

The fact of the matter is, the story of this film is not about Why Luke Almost Killed Ben. That’s just what happened long ago that put Luke in the state he is now.

adywan said:

DrDre said:

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

Warbler said:

Possessed said:

You do make a good point.

I disagree.

What happened to Obi-Wan and Yoda:

  • Jedi purge aided by Obi-Wan’s former apprentice now Darth Vader
  • Galactic Empire takes over the galaxy
  • Yoda and Obi-Wan face off against Sidious and Vader despite terrible odds
  • Yoda fights Sidious to a stalemate and is forced to flee, as troops arrive
  • Obi-Wan defeats Vader, leaving him for dead
  • Obi-Wan and Yoda are now hunted by the Empire, branded traitors with the approval of the Senate, and are forced into hiding
  • Obi-Wan and Yoda hide Luke and Leia
  • It takes twenty years for the Rebel Alliance to become a significant threat to the Empire’s powerbase
  • Leia asks Obi-Wan for help in their most desparate hour, Obi-Wan answers their call

What happened to Luke:

  • Luke’s Jedi Academy is destroyed by his former apprentice partly caused by Luke’s unfortunate mistake
  • New Republic controls most of the galaxy
  • FO is growing in power, but at this point still a fringe government
  • Despite the fact that there’s still plenty of opportunity to stop the FO with the help of the Resistance and the Republic fleet, Luke doesn’t even try, and goes into exile, leaving everything behind
  • In Luke’s absence the FO grows in power to the point, that it is able to destroy the Republic capital and take over the galaxy
  • Luke refuses to help even after his sister Leia through Rey informs him of their situation, and his best friend has been murdered

Except let’s look at what is going on in each instance. In the PT (or even the OT backstory prior to the PT), the Empire has taken over, the Jedi have been hunted down. Ben and Yoda are in hiding. Waiting for something. They have hope that something will change.

Luke has just had his entire new order of Jedi wiped out (either killed or turned to the dark side). We don’t really know how many, but it wasn’t a lot. The facility is wiped out and the leader is none other than his own nephew. He fears that if he trains anyone else, the same thing will happen again. And Snoke and the Knights of Ren make a force that he does not have the power to combat. He would not kill his father in ROTJ so I’m sure he would not kill his nephew.

So the situations are vastly different in terms of what is at stake personally. Also remember, that Ben and Yoda were fully trained Jedi masters. They had learned to put their emotions behind them. When did Luke learn that lesson. We see in ROTJ that he is still prone to letting his emotions take control. He uses that to defeat Vader. As Johnson writes the lines for Luke to speak, he is also addressing fans who have idolized Luke and made him into something that the movies don’t show. The movies never show him attaining true Jedi mastery of his emotions and feelings. And the events that led to his self imposed exile in the ST are ones that, given the character traits shown and mentioned in the OT, would lead him to do exactly what he did. Luke was never perfect, only very determined. He used the Jedi training he had been taught and it failed his padawans. The same way it failed Kenobi in training Anakin. Luke sees that failing but does not know how to correct it. I saw it quite clearly in the PT that Lucas was showing that it wasn’t Kenobi or Yoda who failed, but the Jedi teachings. We are back to that. The Old Republic Jedi order had a major flaw - they didn’t teach their padawan how to avoid the temptation of the dark side. They just said don’t start down that path. They had gotten to a point where they denied attachments because it might lead that way instead of teaching how to avoid and resist the temptation. It is like teaching abstinence instead contraception to avoid teen pregnancies. It doesn’t work. Both Ben Solo and Anakin needed teachings that the Jedi didn’t have and that Luke doesn’t have.

Luke had three choices after Kylo turned. He could go after Kylo Ren and defeat him and the other dark ones. He could build a new order of Jedi to combat them - but the conflict would come eventually and there was no certainty that the new students wouldn’t be cut down or turned like the previous batch. Or he could decide not to kill and go into hiding. Staying and helping Leia really wasn’t an option because Snoke was already there and he would be expected to train new Jedi. And that is what he now fears. Luke rightly sees the Jedi order as flawed. He has given up instead of finding a way to fix it. And if you go back and watch the original, what he did is exactly in keeping with his character traits as established in the OT.

Sorry this really makes no sense to me. Luke refuses to train more Jedi, because he might fail. In stead he allows Snoke to take Ben Solo and to create any number of dark Force users. So, rather than take a risk, which may lead to a victory for the good guys, he opts for certain doom by doing nothing.

If Luke does nothing, the galaxy will be plunged into a second darkness, as there’s nobody to stand in Snoke’s way. If Luke tries to stop Snoke and Kylo, he might prevail, and then retire the Jedi Order, or he might be killed resulting in the end of the Jedi. Doing nothing obvioysly is the worst choice. Luke would be stupid for not being able to deduce this.

This is absolutely not in keeping with Luke’s character, who went on a suicide mission to destroy the Death Star even without significant knowledge of the Force.

Really? Remember in TESB, “I can’t, its too big” of trying to lift his X-wing out of the swamp? And Luke didn’t lead a suicide mission on the death Star. He was one of 30 pilots. And Luke’s failure was huge. He failed Han and Leia, not just Ben and the other students. And with retreat after failure already in him, such a huge setback could easily bring that out again. It is very in keeping with is personality as the OT presented it, though not as the Expended Universe built him up or as many fans have come to see him. This movie really restored humanity to Luke.

Only if you deny Luke’s character development from the moment he failed to lift the X-wing. Discovering Darth Vader is his father, shattered everything Luke believed in. Yet, he overcame it, and ultimately became a Jedi, and redeemed his father.

Additionally the fact that he even for a moment thought about killing his nephew to the point that he activated his lightsaber, when his nephew had done nothing, but be tempted by the dark side, is just not credible. Luke refused to even fight is father, a man who was everything Luke feared his nephew might become and worse. The Luke of ROTJ would have attempted to redeem his nephew, not murder him in his sleep.

Who ignited and swung their saber first? Luke.

After Palpatine had goaded him, and his friends and allies were in real mortal danger. As I stated before ROTJ sets up Luke losing his composure over multiple scenes. TLJ gives us only a single short scene with a Force vision of something that might happen. It’s not the same thing. If TLJ had set up Kylo as being a real danger to Luke’s students, by hurting one of them, it might have worked for me. As it is now Luke’s terrified of a dream, when he kept his cool for a long time in the face of real danger before.

“Terrified of a dream” and not facing any real danger from it is just your interpretation and not supported by anything in the movie.

There’s nothing in the film, that suggest Ben Solo presented an immediate threat. Luke suggests Snoke had won Kylo’s heart, but he mentions only dark thoughts, and not a single incident of Ben using the dark side against the other students or himself. If anything the film suggests it was Luke himself who tipped the scale, and caused Ben to go beserk.

““I saw darkness. I’d sensed it building in him. I’d seen it in moments during his training. But then i looked inside. And it was beyond what i ever imagined ( then you hear lightsabers and screaming). Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction and pain and death and the end of everything that i loved because of what he would become. And in the briefest moment of pure instinct i thought i could stop it. It passed like a fleeting shadow. And i was left with shame. And with consequence. And the last thing i saw were the eyes of a frightened boy who’s master had failed him.””

You hear the use of lightsabers and lots of screaming as Luke is seeing the vision of the destruction Kylo would cause and Luke’s pained and terrified expression says it all. Everything you needed to know was in that scene, both visually and descriptively.

Exactly.

Author
Time

adywan said:

DrDre said:

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

Warbler said:

Possessed said:

You do make a good point.

I disagree.

What happened to Obi-Wan and Yoda:

  • Jedi purge aided by Obi-Wan’s former apprentice now Darth Vader
  • Galactic Empire takes over the galaxy
  • Yoda and Obi-Wan face off against Sidious and Vader despite terrible odds
  • Yoda fights Sidious to a stalemate and is forced to flee, as troops arrive
  • Obi-Wan defeats Vader, leaving him for dead
  • Obi-Wan and Yoda are now hunted by the Empire, branded traitors with the approval of the Senate, and are forced into hiding
  • Obi-Wan and Yoda hide Luke and Leia
  • It takes twenty years for the Rebel Alliance to become a significant threat to the Empire’s powerbase
  • Leia asks Obi-Wan for help in their most desparate hour, Obi-Wan answers their call

What happened to Luke:

  • Luke’s Jedi Academy is destroyed by his former apprentice partly caused by Luke’s unfortunate mistake
  • New Republic controls most of the galaxy
  • FO is growing in power, but at this point still a fringe government
  • Despite the fact that there’s still plenty of opportunity to stop the FO with the help of the Resistance and the Republic fleet, Luke doesn’t even try, and goes into exile, leaving everything behind
  • In Luke’s absence the FO grows in power to the point, that it is able to destroy the Republic capital and take over the galaxy
  • Luke refuses to help even after his sister Leia through Rey informs him of their situation, and his best friend has been murdered

Except let’s look at what is going on in each instance. In the PT (or even the OT backstory prior to the PT), the Empire has taken over, the Jedi have been hunted down. Ben and Yoda are in hiding. Waiting for something. They have hope that something will change.

Luke has just had his entire new order of Jedi wiped out (either killed or turned to the dark side). We don’t really know how many, but it wasn’t a lot. The facility is wiped out and the leader is none other than his own nephew. He fears that if he trains anyone else, the same thing will happen again. And Snoke and the Knights of Ren make a force that he does not have the power to combat. He would not kill his father in ROTJ so I’m sure he would not kill his nephew.

So the situations are vastly different in terms of what is at stake personally. Also remember, that Ben and Yoda were fully trained Jedi masters. They had learned to put their emotions behind them. When did Luke learn that lesson. We see in ROTJ that he is still prone to letting his emotions take control. He uses that to defeat Vader. As Johnson writes the lines for Luke to speak, he is also addressing fans who have idolized Luke and made him into something that the movies don’t show. The movies never show him attaining true Jedi mastery of his emotions and feelings. And the events that led to his self imposed exile in the ST are ones that, given the character traits shown and mentioned in the OT, would lead him to do exactly what he did. Luke was never perfect, only very determined. He used the Jedi training he had been taught and it failed his padawans. The same way it failed Kenobi in training Anakin. Luke sees that failing but does not know how to correct it. I saw it quite clearly in the PT that Lucas was showing that it wasn’t Kenobi or Yoda who failed, but the Jedi teachings. We are back to that. The Old Republic Jedi order had a major flaw - they didn’t teach their padawan how to avoid the temptation of the dark side. They just said don’t start down that path. They had gotten to a point where they denied attachments because it might lead that way instead of teaching how to avoid and resist the temptation. It is like teaching abstinence instead contraception to avoid teen pregnancies. It doesn’t work. Both Ben Solo and Anakin needed teachings that the Jedi didn’t have and that Luke doesn’t have.

Luke had three choices after Kylo turned. He could go after Kylo Ren and defeat him and the other dark ones. He could build a new order of Jedi to combat them - but the conflict would come eventually and there was no certainty that the new students wouldn’t be cut down or turned like the previous batch. Or he could decide not to kill and go into hiding. Staying and helping Leia really wasn’t an option because Snoke was already there and he would be expected to train new Jedi. And that is what he now fears. Luke rightly sees the Jedi order as flawed. He has given up instead of finding a way to fix it. And if you go back and watch the original, what he did is exactly in keeping with his character traits as established in the OT.

Sorry this really makes no sense to me. Luke refuses to train more Jedi, because he might fail. In stead he allows Snoke to take Ben Solo and to create any number of dark Force users. So, rather than take a risk, which may lead to a victory for the good guys, he opts for certain doom by doing nothing.

If Luke does nothing, the galaxy will be plunged into a second darkness, as there’s nobody to stand in Snoke’s way. If Luke tries to stop Snoke and Kylo, he might prevail, and then retire the Jedi Order, or he might be killed resulting in the end of the Jedi. Doing nothing obvioysly is the worst choice. Luke would be stupid for not being able to deduce this.

This is absolutely not in keeping with Luke’s character, who went on a suicide mission to destroy the Death Star even without significant knowledge of the Force.

Really? Remember in TESB, “I can’t, its too big” of trying to lift his X-wing out of the swamp? And Luke didn’t lead a suicide mission on the death Star. He was one of 30 pilots. And Luke’s failure was huge. He failed Han and Leia, not just Ben and the other students. And with retreat after failure already in him, such a huge setback could easily bring that out again. It is very in keeping with is personality as the OT presented it, though not as the Expended Universe built him up or as many fans have come to see him. This movie really restored humanity to Luke.

Only if you deny Luke’s character development from the moment he failed to lift the X-wing. Discovering Darth Vader is his father, shattered everything Luke believed in. Yet, he overcame it, and ultimately became a Jedi, and redeemed his father.

Additionally the fact that he even for a moment thought about killing his nephew to the point that he activated his lightsaber, when his nephew had done nothing, but be tempted by the dark side, is just not credible. Luke refused to even fight is father, a man who was everything Luke feared his nephew might become and worse. The Luke of ROTJ would have attempted to redeem his nephew, not murder him in his sleep.

Who ignited and swung their saber first? Luke.

After Palpatine had goaded him, and his friends and allies were in real mortal danger. As I stated before ROTJ sets up Luke losing his composure over multiple scenes. TLJ gives us only a single short scene with a Force vision of something that might happen. It’s not the same thing. If TLJ had set up Kylo as being a real danger to Luke’s students, by hurting one of them, it might have worked for me. As it is now Luke’s terrified of a dream, when he kept his cool for a long time in the face of real danger before.

“Terrified of a dream” and not facing any real danger from it is just your interpretation and not supported by anything in the movie.

There’s nothing in the film, that suggest Ben Solo presented an immediate threat. Luke suggests Snoke had won Kylo’s heart, but he mentions only dark thoughts, and not a single incident of Ben using the dark side against the other students or himself. If anything the film suggests it was Luke himself who tipped the scale, and caused Ben to go beserk.

““I saw darkness. I’d sensed it building in him. I’d seen it in moments during his training. But then i looked inside. And it was beyond what i ever imagined ( then you hear lightsabers and screaming). Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction and pain and death and the end of everything that i loved because of what he would become. And in the briefest moment of pure instinct i thought i could stop it. It passed like a fleeting shadow. And i was left with shame. And with consequence. And the last thing i saw were the eyes of a frightened boy who’s master had failed him.””

You hear the use of lightsabers and lots of screaming as Luke is seeing the vision of the destruction Kylo would cause and Luke’s pained and terrified expression says it all. Everything you needed to know was in that scene, both visually and descriptively.

And let’s not forget the conversation between Leia and Han in TFA about why Luke was training him in the first place. And also let’s not forget that Luke drew and ignited his saber, but never swung it. Had Ben not woken up, nothing would have happened. Instead that moment of weakness undid everything Luke had been working for. EVERYTHING.

Author
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DrDre said:
A single 30 second scene, which has Luke telling us about a bad vision is not a proper set up. Show not tell still remains the best technique.

This is really true for me. These new films are all tell, tell, tell. Oh look at this flashy thing. I think the prequels were criticized for having so much clutter on the screen visually. These Disney films deserve to be criticized for having too much clutter in the narrative. Pointless characters, pointless subplots. Just enough time to tell you a thing or two and then back to the gimmicks. /mad

Author
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Disney Ruined Star Wars said:

oojason said:

Get over yourself.

Anyway…

See Rule 2 - ‘Don’t attack other members personally. When debating, argue the point, not the person’ - as ray_afraid said previously, it is a personal attack on those who do enjoy them.

I suggest you heed the rule.

 

And also, lose the attitude.

but some people can’t let any slight go unanswered, even if they have to do mental gymnastics to make dishonest points.

i now wonder which ones of us you view with this attitude.

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Time

Collipso said:

adywan said:

DrDre said:

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

Warbler said:

Possessed said:

You do make a good point.

I disagree.

What happened to Obi-Wan and Yoda:

  • Jedi purge aided by Obi-Wan’s former apprentice now Darth Vader
  • Galactic Empire takes over the galaxy
  • Yoda and Obi-Wan face off against Sidious and Vader despite terrible odds
  • Yoda fights Sidious to a stalemate and is forced to flee, as troops arrive
  • Obi-Wan defeats Vader, leaving him for dead
  • Obi-Wan and Yoda are now hunted by the Empire, branded traitors with the approval of the Senate, and are forced into hiding
  • Obi-Wan and Yoda hide Luke and Leia
  • It takes twenty years for the Rebel Alliance to become a significant threat to the Empire’s powerbase
  • Leia asks Obi-Wan for help in their most desparate hour, Obi-Wan answers their call

What happened to Luke:

  • Luke’s Jedi Academy is destroyed by his former apprentice partly caused by Luke’s unfortunate mistake
  • New Republic controls most of the galaxy
  • FO is growing in power, but at this point still a fringe government
  • Despite the fact that there’s still plenty of opportunity to stop the FO with the help of the Resistance and the Republic fleet, Luke doesn’t even try, and goes into exile, leaving everything behind
  • In Luke’s absence the FO grows in power to the point, that it is able to destroy the Republic capital and take over the galaxy
  • Luke refuses to help even after his sister Leia through Rey informs him of their situation, and his best friend has been murdered

Except let’s look at what is going on in each instance. In the PT (or even the OT backstory prior to the PT), the Empire has taken over, the Jedi have been hunted down. Ben and Yoda are in hiding. Waiting for something. They have hope that something will change.

Luke has just had his entire new order of Jedi wiped out (either killed or turned to the dark side). We don’t really know how many, but it wasn’t a lot. The facility is wiped out and the leader is none other than his own nephew. He fears that if he trains anyone else, the same thing will happen again. And Snoke and the Knights of Ren make a force that he does not have the power to combat. He would not kill his father in ROTJ so I’m sure he would not kill his nephew.

So the situations are vastly different in terms of what is at stake personally. Also remember, that Ben and Yoda were fully trained Jedi masters. They had learned to put their emotions behind them. When did Luke learn that lesson. We see in ROTJ that he is still prone to letting his emotions take control. He uses that to defeat Vader. As Johnson writes the lines for Luke to speak, he is also addressing fans who have idolized Luke and made him into something that the movies don’t show. The movies never show him attaining true Jedi mastery of his emotions and feelings. And the events that led to his self imposed exile in the ST are ones that, given the character traits shown and mentioned in the OT, would lead him to do exactly what he did. Luke was never perfect, only very determined. He used the Jedi training he had been taught and it failed his padawans. The same way it failed Kenobi in training Anakin. Luke sees that failing but does not know how to correct it. I saw it quite clearly in the PT that Lucas was showing that it wasn’t Kenobi or Yoda who failed, but the Jedi teachings. We are back to that. The Old Republic Jedi order had a major flaw - they didn’t teach their padawan how to avoid the temptation of the dark side. They just said don’t start down that path. They had gotten to a point where they denied attachments because it might lead that way instead of teaching how to avoid and resist the temptation. It is like teaching abstinence instead contraception to avoid teen pregnancies. It doesn’t work. Both Ben Solo and Anakin needed teachings that the Jedi didn’t have and that Luke doesn’t have.

Luke had three choices after Kylo turned. He could go after Kylo Ren and defeat him and the other dark ones. He could build a new order of Jedi to combat them - but the conflict would come eventually and there was no certainty that the new students wouldn’t be cut down or turned like the previous batch. Or he could decide not to kill and go into hiding. Staying and helping Leia really wasn’t an option because Snoke was already there and he would be expected to train new Jedi. And that is what he now fears. Luke rightly sees the Jedi order as flawed. He has given up instead of finding a way to fix it. And if you go back and watch the original, what he did is exactly in keeping with his character traits as established in the OT.

Sorry this really makes no sense to me. Luke refuses to train more Jedi, because he might fail. In stead he allows Snoke to take Ben Solo and to create any number of dark Force users. So, rather than take a risk, which may lead to a victory for the good guys, he opts for certain doom by doing nothing.

If Luke does nothing, the galaxy will be plunged into a second darkness, as there’s nobody to stand in Snoke’s way. If Luke tries to stop Snoke and Kylo, he might prevail, and then retire the Jedi Order, or he might be killed resulting in the end of the Jedi. Doing nothing obvioysly is the worst choice. Luke would be stupid for not being able to deduce this.

This is absolutely not in keeping with Luke’s character, who went on a suicide mission to destroy the Death Star even without significant knowledge of the Force.

Really? Remember in TESB, “I can’t, its too big” of trying to lift his X-wing out of the swamp? And Luke didn’t lead a suicide mission on the death Star. He was one of 30 pilots. And Luke’s failure was huge. He failed Han and Leia, not just Ben and the other students. And with retreat after failure already in him, such a huge setback could easily bring that out again. It is very in keeping with is personality as the OT presented it, though not as the Expended Universe built him up or as many fans have come to see him. This movie really restored humanity to Luke.

Only if you deny Luke’s character development from the moment he failed to lift the X-wing. Discovering Darth Vader is his father, shattered everything Luke believed in. Yet, he overcame it, and ultimately became a Jedi, and redeemed his father.

Additionally the fact that he even for a moment thought about killing his nephew to the point that he activated his lightsaber, when his nephew had done nothing, but be tempted by the dark side, is just not credible. Luke refused to even fight is father, a man who was everything Luke feared his nephew might become and worse. The Luke of ROTJ would have attempted to redeem his nephew, not murder him in his sleep.

Who ignited and swung their saber first? Luke.

After Palpatine had goaded him, and his friends and allies were in real mortal danger. As I stated before ROTJ sets up Luke losing his composure over multiple scenes. TLJ gives us only a single short scene with a Force vision of something that might happen. It’s not the same thing. If TLJ had set up Kylo as being a real danger to Luke’s students, by hurting one of them, it might have worked for me. As it is now Luke’s terrified of a dream, when he kept his cool for a long time in the face of real danger before.

“Terrified of a dream” and not facing any real danger from it is just your interpretation and not supported by anything in the movie.

There’s nothing in the film, that suggest Ben Solo presented an immediate threat. Luke suggests Snoke had won Kylo’s heart, but he mentions only dark thoughts, and not a single incident of Ben using the dark side against the other students or himself. If anything the film suggests it was Luke himself who tipped the scale, and caused Ben to go beserk.

““I saw darkness. I’d sensed it building in him. I’d seen it in moments during his training. But then i looked inside. And it was beyond what i ever imagined ( then you hear lightsabers and screaming). Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction and pain and death and the end of everything that i loved because of what he would become. And in the briefest moment of pure instinct i thought i could stop it. It passed like a fleeting shadow. And i was left with shame. And with consequence. And the last thing i saw were the eyes of a frightened boy who’s master had failed him.””

You hear the use of lightsabers and lots of screaming as Luke is seeing the vision of the destruction Kylo would cause and Luke’s pained and terrified expression says it all. Everything you needed to know was in that scene, both visually and descriptively.

So Luke acted like TESB Luke would’ve acted, denying all the growth the character should’ve had and had on screen and off screen? I don’t really buy it. I almost buy it solely because of Mark Hamill, but the more I think of it, the less I like it.

No, he acted more like he did in ROTJ only it was a fleeting moment and he didn’t act on it. The person who hid in refusal to fight his father. But the moment Vader mentioned turning his sister ( someone who he had only just learned was his sister) he lost it and almost turned to the dark side in a fit of pure rage and was quite willing to kill his father all of a sudden. It was only when Vader was lying there, defeated and he looked down upon his severed mechanical arm, and then back at his own which foreshadowed what he could become, that he regained his composure. If his character hadn’t progressed, as you say, since the OT, then the horror of what he saw would have caused him to strike the blade down upon Ben.

ANH:REVISITED
ESB:REVISITED

DONATIONS TOWARDS MATERIALS FOR THE REVISITED SAGA

Author
Time

DrDre said:

adywan said:

DrDre said:

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

Warbler said:

Possessed said:

You do make a good point.

I disagree.

What happened to Obi-Wan and Yoda:

  • Jedi purge aided by Obi-Wan’s former apprentice now Darth Vader
  • Galactic Empire takes over the galaxy
  • Yoda and Obi-Wan face off against Sidious and Vader despite terrible odds
  • Yoda fights Sidious to a stalemate and is forced to flee, as troops arrive
  • Obi-Wan defeats Vader, leaving him for dead
  • Obi-Wan and Yoda are now hunted by the Empire, branded traitors with the approval of the Senate, and are forced into hiding
  • Obi-Wan and Yoda hide Luke and Leia
  • It takes twenty years for the Rebel Alliance to become a significant threat to the Empire’s powerbase
  • Leia asks Obi-Wan for help in their most desparate hour, Obi-Wan answers their call

What happened to Luke:

  • Luke’s Jedi Academy is destroyed by his former apprentice partly caused by Luke’s unfortunate mistake
  • New Republic controls most of the galaxy
  • FO is growing in power, but at this point still a fringe government
  • Despite the fact that there’s still plenty of opportunity to stop the FO with the help of the Resistance and the Republic fleet, Luke doesn’t even try, and goes into exile, leaving everything behind
  • In Luke’s absence the FO grows in power to the point, that it is able to destroy the Republic capital and take over the galaxy
  • Luke refuses to help even after his sister Leia through Rey informs him of their situation, and his best friend has been murdered

Except let’s look at what is going on in each instance. In the PT (or even the OT backstory prior to the PT), the Empire has taken over, the Jedi have been hunted down. Ben and Yoda are in hiding. Waiting for something. They have hope that something will change.

Luke has just had his entire new order of Jedi wiped out (either killed or turned to the dark side). We don’t really know how many, but it wasn’t a lot. The facility is wiped out and the leader is none other than his own nephew. He fears that if he trains anyone else, the same thing will happen again. And Snoke and the Knights of Ren make a force that he does not have the power to combat. He would not kill his father in ROTJ so I’m sure he would not kill his nephew.

So the situations are vastly different in terms of what is at stake personally. Also remember, that Ben and Yoda were fully trained Jedi masters. They had learned to put their emotions behind them. When did Luke learn that lesson. We see in ROTJ that he is still prone to letting his emotions take control. He uses that to defeat Vader. As Johnson writes the lines for Luke to speak, he is also addressing fans who have idolized Luke and made him into something that the movies don’t show. The movies never show him attaining true Jedi mastery of his emotions and feelings. And the events that led to his self imposed exile in the ST are ones that, given the character traits shown and mentioned in the OT, would lead him to do exactly what he did. Luke was never perfect, only very determined. He used the Jedi training he had been taught and it failed his padawans. The same way it failed Kenobi in training Anakin. Luke sees that failing but does not know how to correct it. I saw it quite clearly in the PT that Lucas was showing that it wasn’t Kenobi or Yoda who failed, but the Jedi teachings. We are back to that. The Old Republic Jedi order had a major flaw - they didn’t teach their padawan how to avoid the temptation of the dark side. They just said don’t start down that path. They had gotten to a point where they denied attachments because it might lead that way instead of teaching how to avoid and resist the temptation. It is like teaching abstinence instead contraception to avoid teen pregnancies. It doesn’t work. Both Ben Solo and Anakin needed teachings that the Jedi didn’t have and that Luke doesn’t have.

Luke had three choices after Kylo turned. He could go after Kylo Ren and defeat him and the other dark ones. He could build a new order of Jedi to combat them - but the conflict would come eventually and there was no certainty that the new students wouldn’t be cut down or turned like the previous batch. Or he could decide not to kill and go into hiding. Staying and helping Leia really wasn’t an option because Snoke was already there and he would be expected to train new Jedi. And that is what he now fears. Luke rightly sees the Jedi order as flawed. He has given up instead of finding a way to fix it. And if you go back and watch the original, what he did is exactly in keeping with his character traits as established in the OT.

Sorry this really makes no sense to me. Luke refuses to train more Jedi, because he might fail. In stead he allows Snoke to take Ben Solo and to create any number of dark Force users. So, rather than take a risk, which may lead to a victory for the good guys, he opts for certain doom by doing nothing.

If Luke does nothing, the galaxy will be plunged into a second darkness, as there’s nobody to stand in Snoke’s way. If Luke tries to stop Snoke and Kylo, he might prevail, and then retire the Jedi Order, or he might be killed resulting in the end of the Jedi. Doing nothing obvioysly is the worst choice. Luke would be stupid for not being able to deduce this.

This is absolutely not in keeping with Luke’s character, who went on a suicide mission to destroy the Death Star even without significant knowledge of the Force.

Really? Remember in TESB, “I can’t, its too big” of trying to lift his X-wing out of the swamp? And Luke didn’t lead a suicide mission on the death Star. He was one of 30 pilots. And Luke’s failure was huge. He failed Han and Leia, not just Ben and the other students. And with retreat after failure already in him, such a huge setback could easily bring that out again. It is very in keeping with is personality as the OT presented it, though not as the Expended Universe built him up or as many fans have come to see him. This movie really restored humanity to Luke.

Only if you deny Luke’s character development from the moment he failed to lift the X-wing. Discovering Darth Vader is his father, shattered everything Luke believed in. Yet, he overcame it, and ultimately became a Jedi, and redeemed his father.

Additionally the fact that he even for a moment thought about killing his nephew to the point that he activated his lightsaber, when his nephew had done nothing, but be tempted by the dark side, is just not credible. Luke refused to even fight is father, a man who was everything Luke feared his nephew might become and worse. The Luke of ROTJ would have attempted to redeem his nephew, not murder him in his sleep.

Who ignited and swung their saber first? Luke.

After Palpatine had goaded him, and his friends and allies were in real mortal danger. As I stated before ROTJ sets up Luke losing his composure over multiple scenes. TLJ gives us only a single short scene with a Force vision of something that might happen. It’s not the same thing. If TLJ had set up Kylo as being a real danger to Luke’s students, by hurting one of them, it might have worked for me. As it is now Luke’s terrified of a dream, when he kept his cool for a long time in the face of real danger before.

“Terrified of a dream” and not facing any real danger from it is just your interpretation and not supported by anything in the movie.

There’s nothing in the film, that suggest Ben Solo presented an immediate threat. Luke suggests Snoke had won Kylo’s heart, but he mentions only dark thoughts, and not a single incident of Ben using the dark side against the other students or himself. If anything the film suggests it was Luke himself who tipped the scale, and caused Ben to go beserk.

““I saw darkness. I’d sensed it building in him. I’d seen it in moments during his training. But then i looked inside. And it was beyond what i ever imagined ( then you hear lightsabers and screaming). Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction and pain and death and the end of everything that i loved because of what he would become. And in the briefest moment of pure instinct i thought i could stop it. It passed like a fleeting shadow. And i was left with shame. And with consequence. And the last thing i saw were the eyes of a frightened boy who’s master had failed him.””

You hear the use of lightsabers and lots of screaming as Luke is seeing the vision of the destruction Kylo would cause and Luke’s pained and terrified expression says it all. Everything you needed to know was in that scene, both visually and descriptively.

A single 30 second scene, which has Luke telling us about a bad vision is not a proper set up. Show not tell still remains the best technique. Having Luke tell us about growing darkness as we see Ben sleeping in his bed is not the way to go in my view. We should have witnessed Ben Solo’s growing darkness, as he threatens Luke’s students, such that we can see for ourselves the threat that Luke percieves. That’s the way it was effectively done in ROTJ, amd that’s the way it should have been done in TLJ.

Except in TLJ it is a back story, one that we see Kylo’s version of as well. It was done differently in ROTJ because it was the current moment, not a memory.

Author
Time

Disney Ruined Star Wars said:

DrDre said:
A single 30 second scene, which has Luke telling us about a bad vision is not a proper set up. Show not tell still remains the best technique.

This is really true for me. These new films are all tell, tell, tell. Oh look at this flashy thing. I think the prequels were criticized for having so much clutter on the screen visually. These Disney films deserve to be criticized for having too much clutter in the narrative. Pointless characters, pointless subplots. Just enough time to tell you a thing or two and then back to the gimmicks. /mad

So, i know that i am combining complaints from different people. but this is what i am hearing, and it is hard to separate the voices sometimes.

  • the movie should have told us that
  • no, it shouldn’t tell, it should show
  • well, i didn’t see that, they should have told me
Author
Time

dahmage said:

Disney Ruined Star Wars said:

DrDre said:
A single 30 second scene, which has Luke telling us about a bad vision is not a proper set up. Show not tell still remains the best technique.

This is really true for me. These new films are all tell, tell, tell. Oh look at this flashy thing. I think the prequels were criticized for having so much clutter on the screen visually. These Disney films deserve to be criticized for having too much clutter in the narrative. Pointless characters, pointless subplots. Just enough time to tell you a thing or two and then back to the gimmicks. /mad

So, i know that i am combining complaints from different people. but this is what i am hearing, and it is hard to separate the voices sometimes.

  • the movie should have told us that
  • no, it shouldn’t tell, it should show
  • well, i didn’t see that, they should have told me

In movies you tell by showing.

Author
Time

After 34 years why does Chewie look so good? I thought characters were supposed to change. I don’t want it merely told in some monologue nor have to go read about it in the novel. I want it shown on screen, his full hair care routine.

The blue elephant in the room.

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Time

Mrebo said:

After 34 years why does Chewie look so good? I thought characters were supposed to change. I don’t want it merely told in some monologue nor have to go read about it in the novel. I want it shown on screen, his full hair care routine.

Your sarcasm came in that thing? Nice! C’mon… 😃

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Besides whatever shoehorned appearances he had in the prequels, the only time I saw Chewie look bad was in that jail cell in ESB. His fur was a mess.

Author
Time

Disney Ruined Star Wars said:

dahmage said:

Disney Ruined Star Wars said:

DrDre said:
A single 30 second scene, which has Luke telling us about a bad vision is not a proper set up. Show not tell still remains the best technique.

This is really true for me. These new films are all tell, tell, tell. Oh look at this flashy thing. I think the prequels were criticized for having so much clutter on the screen visually. These Disney films deserve to be criticized for having too much clutter in the narrative. Pointless characters, pointless subplots. Just enough time to tell you a thing or two and then back to the gimmicks. /mad

So, i know that i am combining complaints from different people. but this is what i am hearing, and it is hard to separate the voices sometimes.

  • the movie should have told us that
  • no, it shouldn’t tell, it should show
  • well, i didn’t see that, they should have told me

In movies you tell by showing.

yeah, that was my second point? are you agreeing with me, or are you making my point?

Author
Time
 (Edited)

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

TV’s Frink said:

We don’t even know what he saw. It could have been so bad it was clear there was no saving Ben. Maybe it was a likely future. And he had a moment of weakness, and then he came through it. If you don’t think he can have a one second lapse in judgement, then yes, you think he should be perfect.

He says he saw the destruction of everything he knew and loved. After 25 years of building and rebuilding the Jedi and the New Republic and reaching that utopia we all imagined happened after ROTJ, it’s easy to understand why he’d be so worried about it all being lost to the dark side once again. He saw killing Ben as a quick and easy solution to that potential disaster (and remember Ben wasn’t totally innocent at this point, he was already under the influence of Snoke so it wasn’t just a vision).

The quick and easy solution is obviously the way of the dark side though, but Luke will always have a bit of the dark side in him, the struggle isn’t just resisting it once and you’re all done. It’s a constant struggle, and in this moment he came just a little too close to not resisting it, and it cost him dearly. I find it a very compelling and human story for a character who should be very compelling and human and yes, imperfect.

Again ROTJ sets up Luke losing his cool by letting the viewer experience Luke’s struggles, as he witnesses his friends and allies getting killed. TLJ doesn’t do this. It doesn’t even try to show the threat of young Ben Solo, and how Luke came to fear this young boy. Had we witnessed Luke’s vision or had we been given some set up, where we see one of Luke’s student’s get hurt as Kylo gives in to the dark side, we might have better understood Luke’s reaction. However, the movie appears to be mostly interested in showing Luke’s failure in the face of some scary vision, rather than a proper setup.

The fact of the matter is, the story of this film is not about Why Luke Almost Killed Ben. That’s just what happened long ago that put Luke in the state he is now.

Yes, but considering our history with the character of Luke, and the enormous effect this bit of history has on the development of both Luke and Ben Solo, I think the movie owed us a bit more than one itty bitty scene. If I had to choose between seeing a pointless fight between Finn and Phasma, silly jokes in a casino, or a proper setup, further character development, and motivation for Luke and Ben Solo, I would definitely choose the latter.

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DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

TV’s Frink said:

We don’t even know what he saw. It could have been so bad it was clear there was no saving Ben. Maybe it was a likely future. And he had a moment of weakness, and then he came through it. If you don’t think he can have a one second lapse in judgement, then yes, you think he should be perfect.

He says he saw the destruction of everything he knew and loved. After 25 years of building and rebuilding the Jedi and the New Republic and reaching that utopia we all imagined happened after ROTJ, it’s easy to understand why he’d be so worried about it all being lost to the dark side once again. He saw killing Ben as a quick and easy solution to that potential disaster (and remember Ben wasn’t totally innocent at this point, he was already under the influence of Snoke so it wasn’t just a vision).

The quick and easy solution is obviously the way of the dark side though, but Luke will always have a bit of the dark side in him, the struggle isn’t just resisting it once and you’re all done. It’s a constant struggle, and in this moment he came just a little too close to not resisting it, and it cost him dearly. I find it a very compelling and human story for a character who should be very compelling and human and yes, imperfect.

Again ROTJ sets up Luke losing his cool by letting the viewer experience Luke’s struggles, as he witnesses his friends and allies getting killed. TLJ doesn’t do this. It doesn’t even try to show the threat of young Ben Solo, and how Luke came to fear this young boy. Had we witnessed Luke’s vision or had we been given some set up, where we see one of Luke’s student’s get hurt as Kylo gives in to the dark side, we might have better understood Luke’s reaction. However, the movie appears to be mostly interested in showing Luke’s failure in the face of some scary vision, rather than a proper setup.

The fact of the matter is, the story of this film is not about Why Luke Almost Killed Ben. That’s just what happened long ago that put Luke in the state he is now.

Yes, but considering our history with the character of Luke, and the enormous effect this bit of history has on the development of both Luke and Ben Solo, I think the movie owed us a bit more than one itty bitty scene. If I had to choose between seeing a pointless fight between Finn and Phasma, or a proper setup, further character development, and motivation for Luke and Ben Solo, I would definitely choose the latter.

First of all, I think a vision inside of a flashback would have been a little weird. Second, we see what Ben is capable of on the dark side in the films themselves. We see him burn down Luke’s temple, we see him ally with the First Order, we see him burn down the Jakku village, kill Lor San Tekka, kill Han, etc. We know the terrible power of Kylo Ren. When Luke says he sees that power, I think we get the picture well enough.

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Disney Ruined Star Wars said:

dahmage said:

Disney Ruined Star Wars said:

DrDre said:
A single 30 second scene, which has Luke telling us about a bad vision is not a proper set up. Show not tell still remains the best technique.

This is really true for me. These new films are all tell, tell, tell. Oh look at this flashy thing. I think the prequels were criticized for having so much clutter on the screen visually. These Disney films deserve to be criticized for having too much clutter in the narrative. Pointless characters, pointless subplots. Just enough time to tell you a thing or two and then back to the gimmicks. /mad

So, i know that i am combining complaints from different people. but this is what i am hearing, and it is hard to separate the voices sometimes.

  • the movie should have told us that
  • no, it shouldn’t tell, it should show
  • well, i didn’t see that, they should have told me

In movies you tell by showing.

Then please point me to where we see, in ESB, Luke’s vision of his friends being tortured? I’m pretty sure that whole scene is just done through narration. We don’t see anything at that point. And don’t say that we see things later, i’m talking about that point in time. I guess then we also needed to see what happened on Ord Mantell to be able to understand what was so bad that happened with the bounty hunter for Han to suddenly want to leave. Has the viewing audience become so dumbed down that they have to see everything on screen?

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dahmage said:

  • the movie should have told us that

I suppose if a viewer had this criticism, it means they were unsatisfied with the amount of information they received in the movie.

dahmage said:

  • no, it shouldn’t tell, it should show

The filmmaker has two ways to convey information:
through exposition
through drama

The audience could be given more information through exposition, but this should be reserved for minor background details. Parts of the story that are extremely important must be portrayed dramatically, or you will get people like me and DrDre who don’t like the movie and aren’t satisfied with what we’ve been presented.

dahmage said:

  • well, i didn’t see that, they should have told me

I think this is the same point you made in #1?

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DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

TV’s Frink said:

We don’t even know what he saw. It could have been so bad it was clear there was no saving Ben. Maybe it was a likely future. And he had a moment of weakness, and then he came through it. If you don’t think he can have a one second lapse in judgement, then yes, you think he should be perfect.

He says he saw the destruction of everything he knew and loved. After 25 years of building and rebuilding the Jedi and the New Republic and reaching that utopia we all imagined happened after ROTJ, it’s easy to understand why he’d be so worried about it all being lost to the dark side once again. He saw killing Ben as a quick and easy solution to that potential disaster (and remember Ben wasn’t totally innocent at this point, he was already under the influence of Snoke so it wasn’t just a vision).

The quick and easy solution is obviously the way of the dark side though, but Luke will always have a bit of the dark side in him, the struggle isn’t just resisting it once and you’re all done. It’s a constant struggle, and in this moment he came just a little too close to not resisting it, and it cost him dearly. I find it a very compelling and human story for a character who should be very compelling and human and yes, imperfect.

Again ROTJ sets up Luke losing his cool by letting the viewer experience Luke’s struggles, as he witnesses his friends and allies getting killed. TLJ doesn’t do this. It doesn’t even try to show the threat of young Ben Solo, and how Luke came to fear this young boy. Had we witnessed Luke’s vision or had we been given some set up, where we see one of Luke’s student’s get hurt as Kylo gives in to the dark side, we might have better understood Luke’s reaction. However, the movie appears to be mostly interested in showing Luke’s failure in the face of some scary vision, rather than a proper setup.

The fact of the matter is, the story of this film is not about Why Luke Almost Killed Ben. That’s just what happened long ago that put Luke in the state he is now.

Yes, but considering our history with the character of Luke, and the enormous effect this bit of history has on the development of both Luke and Ben Solo, I think the movie owed us a bit more than one itty bitty scene. If I had to choose between seeing a pointless fight between Finn and Phasma, or a proper setup, further character development, and motivation for Luke and Ben Solo, I would definitely choose the latter.

First of all, I think a vision inside of a flashback would have been a little weird. Second, we see what Ben is capable of on the dark side in the films themselves. We see him burn down Luke’s temple, we see him ally with the First Order, we see him burn down the Jakku village, kill Lor San Tekka, kill Han, etc. We know the terrible power of Kylo Ren. When Luke says he sees that power, I think we get the picture well enough.

^^This

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adywan said:

In movies you tell by showing.

Then please point me to where we see, in ESB, Luke’s vision of his friends being tortured? I’m pretty sure that whole scene is just done through narration.

There is, in fact, an entire scene where Han is strapped to some sort of torture device. Vader stands over him. Han’s screams are heard in the background. “They never even asked me any questions?” Leia cries “why are they doing this?”

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Disney Ruined Star Wars said:

dahmage said:

  • the movie should have told us that

I suppose if a viewer had this criticism, it means they were unsatisfied with the amount of information they received in the movie.

dahmage said:

  • no, it shouldn’t tell, it should show

The filmmaker has two ways to convey information:
through exposition
through drama

The audience could be given more information through exposition, but this should be reserved for minor background details. Parts of the story that are extremely important must be portrayed dramatically, or you will get people like me and DrDre who don’t like the movie and aren’t satisfied with what we’ve been presented.

dahmage said:

  • well, i didn’t see that, they should have told me

I think this is the same point you made in #1?

lol, of course it is, as i am showing the circular nature of these discussions.

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joefavs said:

This is the first time in my 28 years that I’ve even seen it suggested that Luke could’ve been doing anything other than choking the guards. I had no idea there was any disagreement at all about that.

Yeah this is the fascinating aspect of interpretation. I never once questioned this as a kid, but I’m glad we can still be reevaluating ROTJ after all this time.

I’m sure the guard on the left actually reaches for his throat, so it seemed obvious to me back then.

But as I got older it seemed more likely it could just be the guards reaction to a force impulse to ‘back off’, or a perceived pressure to back up.
I don’t believe Luke would choke someone for no reason, not sure why I was so quick or happy to accept that he did in '83.