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The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 82

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DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

joefavs said:

But Luke changes his tune after his conversation with Yoda, returns to save his friends, WITHOUT killing Kylo, leaving the door open for his possible redemption, and goes out expressing hope that Rey will get the Jedi going again after all. He strayed for the seven or so years between Kylo’s fall and the start of the ST, but by the end of the movie his faith in the Jedi is restored. The beginning of the movie deconstructs the whole Jedi thing, sure, but I don’t understand how people aren’t seeing that the last act reconstructs it.

Exactly! People seem to take all of Luke’s harsh words on the Jedi early on as if they’re the gospel according to Rian Johnson. Same goes for Kylo Ren and his new motto (“let the past die, kill it if you have to.”).

Just because the characters say things doesn’t mean that that’s what the film itself is saying.

Yes, but that’s an interesting question. What is TLJ saying exactly? The burning of the Jedi tree seems perfectly in line with Kylo’s lines in the film. The movie spends a lot of time deconstructing previously held conceptions and expectations, but at least to some of us doesn’t really seem to fill the void it leaves behind.

Ironically enough I think it’s arguing against extreme opinions. On one side you have Kylo with “kill the past,” on the other you have Luke who’s trapped in a prison of the past. They are both obsessed with it, in their own way (as is Rey, with her parents).

I feel like I’ve said this before but when Luke goes to burn the tree, he’s not killing the past, he’s just furthering his obsession with the Jedi Order and how wrong he thinks they are. But of course he can’t actually go through with it, he can’t let go of the religion and the texts and the dogma and the history and all of it. When Yoda burns the tree, Luke takes that as confirmation: “So it is time for the Jedi to end.” Yoda responds “Time it is… for you to look past a pile of old books.” The message is clear, Yoda isn’t saying that it’s time for the Jedi to end and for the past to die, he’s just saying that it’s time to move on. The fact that Luke says he won’t be the last Jedi and that Rey saves the books just proves this further. Move on from the past, but don’t forget it. That’s the choice Rey makes when she doesn’t go with Kylo, that’s the choice she makes when she returns to the Resistance and her friends.

Good point, hadn’t looked at it that way. Perhaps you’re right, and I’m like Luke unable to look past a pile of old films. Maybe you’re my Yoda. You wouldn’t happen to have a screwy sense of humour, would you (and some pointy ears)? 😉

Pointy ears, no. Screwy sense of humor? Definitely.

I would honestly recommend seeing the film again if you get the chance, this time completely devoid of any preconceived notions.

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joefavs said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

joefavs said:

But Luke changes his tune after his conversation with Yoda, returns to save his friends, WITHOUT killing Kylo, leaving the door open for his possible redemption, and goes out expressing hope that Rey will get the Jedi going again after all. He strayed for the seven or so years between Kylo’s fall and the start of the ST, but by the end of the movie his faith in the Jedi is restored. The beginning of the movie deconstructs the whole Jedi thing, sure, but I don’t understand how people aren’t seeing that the last act reconstructs it.

Exactly! People seem to take all of Luke’s harsh words on the Jedi early on as if they’re the gospel according to Rian Johnson. Same goes for Kylo Ren and his new motto (“let the past die, kill it if you have to.”).

Just because the characters say things doesn’t mean that that’s what the film itself is saying.

Yes, but that’s an interesting question. What is TLJ saying exactly? The burning of the Jedi tree seems perfectly in line with Kylo’s lines in the film. The movie spends a lot of time deconstructing previously held conceptions and expectations, but at least to some of us doesn’t really seem to fill the void it leaves behind.

Ironically enough I think it’s arguing against extreme opinions. On one side you have Kylo with “kill the past,” on the other you have Luke who’s trapped in a prison of the past. They are both obsessed with it, in their own way (as is Rey, with her parents).

I feel like I’ve said this before but when Luke goes to burn the tree, he’s not killing the past, he’s just furthering his obsession with the Jedi Order and how wrong he thinks they are. But of course he can’t actually go through with it, he can’t let go of the religion and the texts and the dogma and the history and all of it. When Yoda burns the tree, Luke takes that as confirmation: “So it is time for the Jedi to end.” Yoda responds “Time it is… for you to look past a pile of old books.” The message is clear, Yoda isn’t saying that it’s time for the Jedi to end and for the past to die, he’s just saying that it’s time to move on. The fact that Luke says he won’t be the last Jedi and that Rey saves the books just proves this further. Move on from the past, but don’t forget it. That’s the choice Rey makes when she doesn’t go with Kylo, that’s the choice she makes when she returns to the Resistance and her friends.

Cosign.

Given your avatar, I thought you’d be more partial to tan.

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TV’s Frink said:

joefavs said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

joefavs said:

But Luke changes his tune after his conversation with Yoda, returns to save his friends, WITHOUT killing Kylo, leaving the door open for his possible redemption, and goes out expressing hope that Rey will get the Jedi going again after all. He strayed for the seven or so years between Kylo’s fall and the start of the ST, but by the end of the movie his faith in the Jedi is restored. The beginning of the movie deconstructs the whole Jedi thing, sure, but I don’t understand how people aren’t seeing that the last act reconstructs it.

Exactly! People seem to take all of Luke’s harsh words on the Jedi early on as if they’re the gospel according to Rian Johnson. Same goes for Kylo Ren and his new motto (“let the past die, kill it if you have to.”).

Just because the characters say things doesn’t mean that that’s what the film itself is saying.

Yes, but that’s an interesting question. What is TLJ saying exactly? The burning of the Jedi tree seems perfectly in line with Kylo’s lines in the film. The movie spends a lot of time deconstructing previously held conceptions and expectations, but at least to some of us doesn’t really seem to fill the void it leaves behind.

Ironically enough I think it’s arguing against extreme opinions. On one side you have Kylo with “kill the past,” on the other you have Luke who’s trapped in a prison of the past. They are both obsessed with it, in their own way (as is Rey, with her parents).

I feel like I’ve said this before but when Luke goes to burn the tree, he’s not killing the past, he’s just furthering his obsession with the Jedi Order and how wrong he thinks they are. But of course he can’t actually go through with it, he can’t let go of the religion and the texts and the dogma and the history and all of it. When Yoda burns the tree, Luke takes that as confirmation: “So it is time for the Jedi to end.” Yoda responds “Time it is… for you to look past a pile of old books.” The message is clear, Yoda isn’t saying that it’s time for the Jedi to end and for the past to die, he’s just saying that it’s time to move on. The fact that Luke says he won’t be the last Jedi and that Rey saves the books just proves this further. Move on from the past, but don’t forget it. That’s the choice Rey makes when she doesn’t go with Kylo, that’s the choice she makes when she returns to the Resistance and her friends.

Cosign.

Given your avatar, I thought you’d be more partial to tan.

Next time please give a Trig warning before posting, so i don’t misconstrue your angle.

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By the time I got to see the movie and find this thread, it was already 76 pages long. I slogged through the first 40 before I started seeing the same posters cycling through the arguments again and again.

I can’t contribute anything that hasn’t already been said over and over other than:

a) I’ve only seen the film once (lucky to at all with a newborn),
b) I came out of the theatre conflicted about whether I actually enjoyed it,
c) I’ve thought about the film everyday since I saw it, and finally
d) I like it less and less each and every day.

Perhaps subsequent viewings may soften my stance, but as for now:

a) I won’t pay to see it again theatrically, and
b) Barring a major course correction it will be the last Star Wars movie I see theatrically.

I don’t disagree the political arc chosen for TFA and TLJ is a “realistic” or even “probable” one, and that the Rebel Alliance couldn’t establish a utopian government post ROTJ. Despite feeling like a rehash, I was willing to buy into that “reality” with TFA.

The travesty here is the character arc chosen for Luke. Despite all pro-TLJ lobbying, I simply cannot believe that this hero would have responded the way he does in TLJ.

I don’t want my heroes to be “fallen”. Some may applaud a “James Bond” movie where the protagonist is portrayed as a recovering alcoholic and sexual predator as “realistic” or “honest”, but that’s not why I would choose to watch a Bond movie. And that’s why TLJ will be the last Star Wars film that I see in theatres, the same way I stopped going to see “dark and gritty” DCEU movies after “Man of Steel”.

To be honest, I would rather they never had made the ST and I wish that Mark Hamill would have had the option of reading a script before being contractually obligated to make this film.

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nhoj3 said:

To be honest, I would rather they never had made the ST

Sounds a tad selfish, no?

I don’t wish Lucas never made the PT because I know some people enjoy it, even if I don’t.

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 (Edited)

In some ways I think people just weren’t prepared for the ST to actually be a thing.

Because the thing with the ST in relation to the OT, is I think (personally) they had no choice but to look inward and challenge Luke and the Jedi in someway. Because otherwise, what’s the conflict? You can’t have a story without a conflict (it can’t be the adventures of happy go lucky Luke, Leia and Han like the old EU books were).

You can’t really do an extragalatical threat like the Vong, because that’s not really Star Wars. Star Wars is about our world, and to do that would be to make an alien invasion movie, which would move SW from mythic but grounded to straight up sci-fi.

So what’s grounded? What would cause a trilogy long conflict? Well, as in real life and in myth, you get this idea of history repeating itself. But it’s not just Empire vs. Rebels v2, at least I don’t see it that way. You can’t just continue the simple good vs. bad that the OT did. You have to look deeper. By reintroducing a similar conflict, we get to actually look at the fight and ask what are they really fighting for? If more problems are arising, we need to ask, what are the Jedi really? What is their place in this? Especially after the PT (where the Jedi are quite shit, honestly), we have to ask, are the Jedi really helping? Even if the answer is yes (and it is), I think those questions need to be asked. And I love that it’s Luke asking them. He’s so idealistic in the OT he never gets the chance to stop and think it through. And so of course, when the dark side comes back, he finds himself in crisis.

But that’s the thing, to have an ST, we needed the dark side to come back. I don’t think there was any other way. I get why some people wanted the OT’s fairy tale ending to be the end of it, but the truth is, the moment the ST was announced that fairy tale ending disappeared. And yeah, I guess there were other ways to tell an ST story that didn’t so ruin the fairy tale. But I don’t think those kinds of stories would really be all that worth telling. They’d be fun in a light and breezy way, like a superhero sequel, but I think a Star Wars saga film needs to be more than that. It needs to really be worth it. And to be worth it, it had to face some hard truths about fairy tale endings, namely that they don’t really exist. Things don’t stay good forever. I think the heart of this whole trilogy goes back to what Maz said in TFA. Through the ages, there’s only one ever really been one fight: against the dark side. It doesn’t just go away when one threat goes away. You always have to face it, fight it.

And so that’s really what the ST is about. The OT was super optimistic and idealistic, good vs. bad, good wins. So it’s a little depressing when the bad comes back, sure. Fighting evil isn’t that simple. But learning that just helps you to look inward and double down on your resolve, as Luke ultimately does.

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nhoj3 said:

By the time I got to see the movie and find this thread, it was already 76 pages long. I slogged through the first 40 before I started seeing the same posters cycling through the arguments again and again.

it is a terrible slog to sift through.

a) I’ve only seen the film once (lucky to at all with a newborn),

I hear you! it is hard to get out of the house sometimes with young ones.

c) I’ve thought about the film everyday since I saw it

Same

Ok, now for some actual response:

I don’t want my heroes to be “fallen”. Some may applaud a “James Bond” movie where the protagonist is portrayed as a recovering alcoholic and sexual predator as “realistic” or “honest”, but that’s not why I would choose to watch a Bond movie. And that’s why TLJ will be the last Star Wars film that I see in theatres, the same way I stopped going to see “dark and gritty” DCEU movies after “Man of Steel”.

I really agree with your dislike of the dark and gritty DCEU, but i am perplexed that you would lump this with those (hyperbole aside). Luke is shown as ‘not perfect’ and struggling with how to exist as a perfect legend, and a flawed human. And i feel like he resolves this by the end of the film, so I didn’t come away feeling that he was flawed when i left the theater.

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DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

joefavs said:

But Luke changes his tune after his conversation with Yoda, returns to save his friends, WITHOUT killing Kylo, leaving the door open for his possible redemption, and goes out expressing hope that Rey will get the Jedi going again after all. He strayed for the seven or so years between Kylo’s fall and the start of the ST, but by the end of the movie his faith in the Jedi is restored. The beginning of the movie deconstructs the whole Jedi thing, sure, but I don’t understand how people aren’t seeing that the last act reconstructs it.

Exactly! People seem to take all of Luke’s harsh words on the Jedi early on as if they’re the gospel according to Rian Johnson. Same goes for Kylo Ren and his new motto (“let the past die, kill it if you have to.”).

Just because the characters say things doesn’t mean that that’s what the film itself is saying.

Yes, but that’s an interesting question. What is TLJ saying exactly? The burning of the Jedi tree seems perfectly in line with Kylo’s lines in the film. The movie spends a lot of time deconstructing previously held conceptions and expectations, but at least to some of us doesn’t really seem to fill the void it leaves behind.

Ironically enough I think it’s arguing against extreme opinions. On one side you have Kylo with “kill the past,” on the other you have Luke who’s trapped in a prison of the past. They are both obsessed with it, in their own way (as is Rey, with her parents).

I feel like I’ve said this before but when Luke goes to burn the tree, he’s not killing the past, he’s just furthering his obsession with the Jedi Order and how wrong he thinks they are. But of course he can’t actually go through with it, he can’t let go of the religion and the texts and the dogma and the history and all of it. When Yoda burns the tree, Luke takes that as confirmation: “So it is time for the Jedi to end.” Yoda responds “Time it is… for you to look past a pile of old books.” The message is clear, Yoda isn’t saying that it’s time for the Jedi to end and for the past to die, he’s just saying that it’s time to move on. The fact that Luke says he won’t be the last Jedi and that Rey saves the books just proves this further. Move on from the past, but don’t forget it. That’s the choice Rey makes when she doesn’t go with Kylo, that’s the choice she makes when she returns to the Resistance and her friends.

Good point, hadn’t looked at it that way. Perhaps you’re right, and I’m like Luke unable to look past a pile of old films. Maybe you’re my Yoda. You wouldn’t happen to have a screwy sense of humour, would you (and some pointy ears)? 😉

Pointy ears, no. Screwy sense of humor? Definitely.

I would honestly recommend seeing the film again if you get the chance, this time completely devoid of any preconceived notions.

Yeah, I’m going to see it again in a few days with my fiancee. She really liked TFA, despite not being a sci-fi/fantasy lover, so I’m curious how she will feel about TLJ.

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 (Edited)

TV’s Frink said:

nhoj3 said:

To be honest, I would rather they never had made the ST

Sounds a tad selfish, no?

I don’t wish Lucas never made the PT because I know some people enjoy it, even if I don’t.

With all due respect, no I don’t think it’s selfish. There are many franchises that have gone back to the well too often, to the detriment of the overall experience. I feel the same way about everything after Aliens, Terminator 2, Highlander, Predator, The Matrix, Robocop, Ghostbusters, etc. I applaud Robert Zemeckis and Bob Gale for not caving into calls for any reboots, remakes, or sequels of the “Back to the Future” trilogy while they’re alive.

I don’t think that my stance is any more selfish than me flipping it and accusing others of selfishly wanting more Star Wars to the point of over saturation.

Just my opinion, and I will vote in the only place that matters… with my ticket and merchandising dollars.

Edit: Clarified that I was speaking of the “Back to the Future” trilogy as a whole, not just the first movie.

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You can ignore the ST. I can’t ignore the lack of one.

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nhoj3 said:

With all due respect, no I don’t think it’s selfish. There are many franchises that have gone back to the well too often, to the detriment of the overall experience. I feel the same way about everything after Aliens, Terminator 2, Highlander, Predator, The Matrix, Robocop, Ghostbusters, etc.

Obligatory XKCD reference.

I applaud Robert Zemeckis and Bob Gale for not caving into calls for any reboots, remakes, or sequels of “Back to the Future” while they’re alive.

Not sure if serious or making unusually selective XKCD-style memory edit.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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Ha, I didn’t even read the BTTF part. What the heck does that even mean?

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TV’s Frink said:

You can ignore the ST. I can’t ignore the lack of one.

To quote Ron Burgandy:
“That doesn’t make sense”.
😉

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joefavs said:

So even though he ultimately decided the scene didn’t work and changed the film accordingly, you’re still upset at him for having the idea in the first place? I’m sorry, but that’s pretty weak.

No it’s not. Cut content still speaks to the mindset of the writer of the story.

TV’s Frink said:

chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.

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chyron8472 said:

joefavs said:

So even though he ultimately decided the scene didn’t work and changed the film accordingly, you’re still upset at him for having the idea in the first place? I’m sorry, but that’s pretty weak.

No it’s not. Cut content still speaks to the mindset of the writer of the story.

thanks for digging this back up.

sure, but it was also cut, which ACTUALLY speaks to the mindset of the story the writer wanted to tell.

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TV’s Frink said:

As someone who disliked the movie said previously, new Star Wars just isn’t for them anymore. I get the disappointment, I don’t get the anger.

5 Stages of Grief.

Shock. Anger. Bargaining. Depression. Acceptance.

They grieve over what they knew or thought Star Wars to be. That is to say, they don’t like RJ’s “certain point of view.” This new film casts a different light on the previous films, given context with them, and this then is a sort of cannot-unsee experience for them and they are having to cope with it.

They might be able to come to accept it. They might not. But they’re not there yet.

I liked TLJ, and so I don’t agree with their assessment. But I can understand it, and I don’t think telling them they’re fools for being angry is warranted. They’ll get over it. Just give them time.

TV’s Frink said:

chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.

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chyron8472 said:

joefavs said:

So even though he ultimately decided the scene didn’t work and changed the film accordingly, you’re still upset at him for having the idea in the first place? I’m sorry, but that’s pretty weak.

No it’s not. Cut content still speaks to the mindset of the writer of the story.

I firmly believe anything that doesn’t make the final movie isn’t admissible in this kind of argument, however interesting it may be. Otherwise, Indiana Jones is a statutory rapist.

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There are deleted scenes from the Prequels that improve the storyline (like the Birth of the Rebellion, or Padme’s Visit to her Parents’ House). And I have edits that reinsert them. Also, there are films, like Superman: The Richard Donner Cut, that are developed directly from the standpoint of reintroducing deleted scenes.

So discussing scenes that made it to film but weren’t included, as evidence of where the film creator was going with it, is valid.

TV’s Frink said:

chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.

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 (Edited)

I can accept that they are ‘part of the thinking’, but it is disingenuous to act as if they hold the same weight as something that wasn’t cut. What is onscreen is what is used to tell the story, what was cut held ideas of the story, but they might have been redundant, or too strong, or too weak, or too whatever, when the film was assembled.

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dahmage said:

I can accept that they are ‘part of the thinking’, but it is disingenuous to act as if they hold the same weight as something that wasn’t cut. What is onscreen is what is used to tell the story, what was cut held ideas of the story, but they might have been redundant, or too strong, or too weak, or too whatever, when the film was assembled.

Yeah, pretty much. Ultimately what’s in the film is what was decided tells the story best. That a scene was cut could mean anything from it wasn’t necessary, to it was necessary to cut.

Without having seen the scene (or having heard Rian’s take on it), it’s kind of a silly discussion to have.

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I think it depends on why they were cut.

Apparently the scene was cut because the movie was too long or it didn’t fit with the flow of the film, not because it didn’t fit Rian’s vision, especially because the scene was in the trailer, so it was part of the final product for some time.

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 (Edited)

chyron8472 said:

TV’s Frink said:

As someone who disliked the movie said previously, new Star Wars just isn’t for them anymore. I get the disappointment, I don’t get the anger.

5 Stages of Grief.

Shock. Anger. Bargaining. Depression. Acceptance.

They grieve over what they knew or thought Star Wars to be. That is to say, they don’t like RJ’s “certain point of view.” This new film casts a different light on the previous films, given context with them, and this then is a sort of cannot-unsee experience for them and they are having to cope with it.

They might be able to come to accept it. They might not. But they’re not there yet.

I liked TLJ, and so I don’t agree with their assessment. But I can understand it, and I don’t think telling them they’re fools for being angry is warranted. They’ll get over it. Just give them time.

Agree totally. I didnt like TLJ and I’ve decided to ignore it from my own head canon.

But for some, TLJ was a step too far. Rian Johnson, with the full authority of canon, told fans that Luke Skywalker is transformed into someone else. Let us not forget that Star Wars is a very special thing to its fans. For many its a part of their childhood. To see that Luke went from being the idealist to being nihilist is too much for a huge swath of the fanbase.

Fans, myself included, may just not realize what we want. We wanted these characters back but we had to have expected that an extension of a character’s arc could very well have included a revision of it.