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The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 77

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luckydube56 said:

Anjohan said:

The Last Jedi has become bad because people can’t comprehend new directions for a 40-year old franchise. Get over it.

Episode IX WILL probably be predictable as fuck and all SW fans will rejoice.

I’m lucky in that I can ignore TLJ and TFA in my own mental canon.

This right here is how you should handle these movies if you don’t like them, and I respect this completely. But I don’t think it’s luck, I think it’s just common sense…or at least that’s what it should be. Getting all pissed off because a later movie “ruined” an earlier movie is just really alien to me.

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Ok, take it that way. Try something different: if the Force is for everyone then why does the director and writer underline in every possible way how powerful Master Skywalker is?

The way I see it, the requisite of the Force being for everyone is that it is an ability that you reach through effort if you want to. If you want the Force to truly be for everyone, then the very concept of “force sensitive” has to be turned down. Which counterdicts TFA as well.

Otherwise it’s a Harry Potter like scenario, an ability not present in most of the people, that can be perfected through training.

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TV’s Frink said:

luckydube56 said:

Anjohan said:

The Last Jedi has become bad because people can’t comprehend new directions for a 40-year old franchise. Get over it.

Episode IX WILL probably be predictable as fuck and all SW fans will rejoice.

I’m lucky in that I can ignore TLJ and TFA in my own mental canon.

This right here is how you should handle these movies if you don’t like them, and I respect this completely. But I don’t think it’s luck, I think it’s just common sense…or at least that’s what it should be. Getting all pissed off because a later movie “ruined” an earlier movie is just really alien to me.

I totally agree on this, specially knowing that Star Wars was a saga, but now it is only a franchise, a brand, hollow, it can contain anything. These new films can’t put in jeopardy your enjoyment of what came before.

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Mithrandir said:

The way I see it, the requisite of the Force being for everyone is that it is an ability that you reach through effort if you want to. If you want the Force to truly be for everyone, then the very concept of “force sensitive” has to be turned down. Which counterdicts TFA as well.

We don’t know yet if the force is for everyone. We don’t know for sure if Rey is a nobody, and we don’t know anything about broom boy. Also, Leia used the force in the OT, despite (presumably) no training.

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I really don’t get people’s beef with Leia using the force. In Jedi, Luke tells her the Force is strong in her family and says “in time you will learn to use this power too”. 30 years have passed! While Leia seems to have been mostly busy with politics during that time, she has to have received SOME instruction from Luke. Granted, she’s no Jedi per se, but she can do some levitation and communication.

Remember, in a vacuum, you don’t have any air resistence or gravity to slow you down, so Leia would have only needed to exert just a little bit of Force pull for a short amount of time to bring her back to the ship. Plus people can survive in the vacuum of Space unprotected for a few moments.

What’s the internal temperature of a TaunTaun? Luke warm.

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I might be wrong but I think if the execution of that scene was a little different (better?) people might not have complained so much, even though the complaints seem to be about the idea rather than the execution.

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Mithrandir said:

There’s no good and bad anymore. (Kylo/Rey, Benicio del Toro’s skepticism)

It’s better to be obedient and submissive than to rebel against orders that make no sense to you, because if you don’t follow orders things can go worse. Trust the system.

There’s no point in sacrificing for others, like Finn tried. Or like Rey tried,

This is the stuff that really bothers me. I was watching a Chinese movie last night called Curse of the Golden Flower, and it was a beautiful movie, but the plot was complicated with all kinds of twists and betrayals, but I always knew how the ending was going to go because you know the Chinese government is only going to allow a certain message to get out in movies. The rebellion is going to be put down. The wise Emperor knows more than everyone else, don’t question his judgement, and he has a secret army that comes out of nowhere to defeat the evildoers who plot against him and the State.

Some people believe Star Wars is about lightsabers and Jedi, The Force, X-wings and Imperial ship designs, John Williams music, and notes George Lucas scribbled on napkins decades ago, among other things. But I think really, the Original Trilogy was about resisting against an established tyrannical order- a group of friends who sacrifice for each to fight evil and oppression in the name of freedom. They resist. Loyalty to each other and a good moral compass leads them to defeat evil and save the galaxy and their own familial relationships.

Meanwhile, there was a trailer shot of Rogue One last year where Jyn Erso said something like “Isn’t this a rebellion? I rebel.” And it was cut from the movie. Now there is no good and evil in these movies. And there are hidden messages like you pointed out, there characters are secretly telling the audience “do as you are told, the people in power know more than you”.

These are very dark times for Star Wars movies. /mad

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TV’s Frink said:

I might be wrong but I think if the execution of that scene was a little different (better?) people might not have complained so much, even though the complaints seem to be about the idea rather than the execution.

Perhaps, but I found that scene to be quite beautiful, seeing this icon floating amongst destruction back to safety in a pose reminiscent of a classical painting.

What’s the internal temperature of a TaunTaun? Luke warm.

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Don’t get me wrong, I rather liked that scene.

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I have no complaints on the execution of the idea. I’m quite open with it. And I have no complaints on the idea neither, because Leia is a Skywalker.

But if the force is not for everyone (I agree that it’s not explicit and thus, inconclussive) and remains for a selective collection of individuals holding a power, and this movie releases that collection of individuals from the moral imperative of being “good” because it is dogmatic, then I think we might have a problem with the message of the film.

Those in power can do what they do. Trust they have balance and that everything happens for a reason even if it doesn’t make sense.

The rest of the people, muggles, continue with your lives and follow orders.

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There’s a difference between the force being for anyone and the force being for everyone.

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 (Edited)

Don’t worry, Frink, I wasn’t accusing you of anything. I remember you saying you liked the film.

As for the discussion on obedience: I didn’t see it like that: I saw it as a critique on acting first without thinking things through.

Popular culture seems to have popularized this notion of “sticking it” to the man and following your gut instinct. TLJ reverses that “flyboy” mentality and asks you to think about your actions and their inevitable reactions.

What’s the internal temperature of a TaunTaun? Luke warm.

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 (Edited)

Disney Ruined Star Wars said:

Some people believe Star Wars is about lightsabers and Jedi, The Force, X-wings and Imperial ship designs, John Williams music, and notes George Lucas scribbled on napkins decades ago, among other things. But I think really, the Original Trilogy was about resisting against an established tyrannical order- a group of friends who sacrifice for each to fight evil and oppression in the name of freedom. They resist. Loyalty to each other and a good moral compass leads them to defeat evil and save the galaxy and their own familial relationships.

Star Wars is actually about whatever you want to pull from it. There’s no right or wrong answer to the question “what is Star Wars about” unless it’s something that’s not actually present.

I think TLJ, more than any other Star Wars before it, has challenged people’s notion of what Star Wars “should be about.” And for some people the conflict between what they want out of Star Wars and what they got out of TLJ is too much for them.

And then you end up with a user name like “X ruined Star Wars.” :p

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 (Edited)

I don’t see it that way.

Even if the plan was never revealed to Poe (so he cound’t possibly have reflected on the inevitable reactions of his flyboy plan, because of bad leadership) the other contents of the movie point the same way: don’t try to help your neighbor. Save yourself. Evacuate the ship. Live and fight another day. Reclude in your own island. Isolate yourself and don’t expand on others.

It’s not that much about obedience as it is about passiveness and accepting what comes from outside. Which is logic because the movie is to me in most of its layers an attack on the male gender role. Don’t relate to what happens outside of you, don’t seize the outer world. Look inside your womb, balance inside you, etc.

From such a passive (call it feminine?) POV, Luke’s attempt to redeem a not-willing-to-be-redeemed Vader is just an invasion, and that’s Rey closing the door on Kylo. Only you can save yourself because I won’t move a finger for you.

No more social links out of selflessness. Is that (which is also, as this is a wide cultural message) a true society?

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Mithrandir said:
the movie is to me in most of its layers an attack on the male gender role. Don’t relate to what happens outside of you, don’t seize the outer world. Look inside your womb, balance inside you, etc.

???

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Everything has to do with everything. Read the long message in the page before, I try to explain myself a little better there.

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 (Edited)

I really do think obedience and staying in your lane are among the strongest if not the strongest themes in these new movies. Without getting too much into politics, remember Star Wars began in the 1970s when films were very cynical and with good reason. It was an era of exposing corruption. Resisting oppression in the name of freedom is the American Way.

Now, Star Wars is a franchise of commercial films and not revolutionary. They are made by Disney and the corporate establishment. They are afraid of electoral upsets and democratic checks and balances. The Chinese government is pouring billions and billions of dollars into Hollywood every year and studios are increasingly crafting their movies to meet foreign censorship approval so they can make more money overseas.

When they cut the line “this is a rebellion, I rebel” from Rogue One I knew something had gone very wrong.

The Force Awakens and Rogue One were mediocre, not good not terrible movies in my opinion. But The Last Jedi was much much worse. I hated it. I think it starts with the bad acting, the ridiculous flat characterizations, the nonsense plots, the wrong tones and terrible attempts of comedy. But what I really hate the most are the messages these movies are trying to convey. They are evil and I want them be recognized that way.

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 (Edited)

I don’t think it’s the chinese, I see it more as a way, a rather very capitalist way, of widening the market base of these movies by having literally anyone join the ship. Nothing wrong, nothing well, anyone can identify with any character at somepoint in their lives.

All stereotypes are flawed, and bad. But to a certain extent they give you a structure to explain your world. Good, evil, women, man, master, teacher, etc.

Tear down that structure and you will remain with something new and different but not necessary a better world; a sort of absolute homogenic soup where every individual can’t position him/herself in a category. What binds them then? Only market.

There’s nothing wrong with anything as long as you keep buying.

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 (Edited)

Mithrandir: it’s nice having a smart discussion about the film. It’s definitely refreshing.

I agree that there is a gender role reversal going on and perhaps that is why there seems to be such malaise from the mostly(?) male fan base. They went in expecting Luke toppling ATSTs with a wave of his hand, and Poe Dameron blasting TIE fighter after TIE fighter. What we got was the Resistance slowly being picked off while cornered and that this is a fight they can’t (and don’t) win.

Then there’s Luke who’s given up on the world and when he finally comes through, just stands there talking shit.

This past year has been pretty toxic politically speaking, so if Star Wars can help us think about looking “inwards” like you say, I say let’s do this.

What’s the internal temperature of a TaunTaun? Luke warm.

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I started thinking about Rogue One again, and I started to realize more about my problem with the Resistance in TLJ. Aside from it being the organization the protagonists work for, why do we care about them? Especially when the film tries to set up a very grey world, blurring the lines between good and evil. Yes, they’re fighting the fascist regime, but the film doesn’t really make an effort to set up the First Order as an oppressive force on the Galaxy they conquered, either.

We can argue the quality of the characters and the structure, but Rogue One showed off just what was at stake in the film. The Empire was shown as a nearly omnipresent and oppressive force, willing to level a city (and pretty much the surrounding continent) to deal with some insurgents giving them trouble and test out a new toy. We’re shown the importance of the Macguffin and why it matters that the characters obtain it.

In TLJ, we’re more told about how bad the First Order ruling the galaxy is; the only times we’re given a real reason as to believe how terrible it is is when they destroy the Hosnian System and brainwash children into being stormtroopers in TFA. Otherwise, we’re got really given a reason as to why we should give a damn who’s in charge.

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 (Edited)

Perhaps it’s time to start a new thread, but I’d say this:

No matter how inwards you look, you still live in the company of people. And that people organise one way or other. Having a mass of people all looking inwards, doing their own and not looking to the sides it’s just another way of organising and perhaps an even more toxic one.

It’s back to natural state. A band of hunters and collectors. Nomads. A cannibalistic society with no apparent structure, but an invisible one. Because we can’t forget this is a product made by a company with funding purposes, not precisely a hippie cultural product.

About the ST: There’s no moral struggle. If Episode IX redeems Kylo as head of the First Order, then we’ll end up having a movie about a fair kingdom with a good fair emperor and everybody lived happy. Because TLJ already establishes that there’s not a hierarchy between moral-social structures: there’s darkness in rey, light in kylo, grey areas. No need of a dogma (only that not needing a dogma and praising gray is a dogma in itself: the sacred word of everything you do is good and acceptable), so just change the “inside”, the head of the regime and then magically the regime can start being good.

And that is dangerous. And yes, it’s not western, it’s oriental culture and thinking. But not because it’s chinese, but because the western corporations find that model a lot more profitable in this stage of social-mediated liquid society. The old fronteer of private and public spheres has been turned down and publicity reigns supreme. That’s Sparta and not Athens.

Individuality requires by definition the possibility of being developed, and it develops in time, like a culture (or agriculture). To have the possibility of individuality, there has to be a defined private sphere that allows that culture to grow in time, from past to future (education, family, etc.).

The overwhelming power of today’s public sphere undermines that possibility: the world is so connected that it leads to the illusion that everything happens here and now, as they made Yoda say in this movie, as if it was wisdom.

And what’s the basic permanent structure of private life in a society? Family, and lineage, not the mass but the clan. Lineage allows the individual to draw and recognize itself in a trajectory through time, even from and beyond its existence. Which doesn’t mean that lineage gives you privileges over the others, but to allows you to know your journey, and certainly conditions it to an extent.

Problem with family is that it is a structure, and as any structure, it implies some kind of oppression. As the jewish law states, the mother is evident, the father only can be supposed. That’s why traditional societies reacted by defining a role for the woman associated with the private sphere of the home. Family is the base of democracy, as was in Athens centuries ago: it was based on the relative oppresion and confinement of half the humanity to a strict and defined model of conduct.

Jeopardize those role models, and you’ll end up having no family. Without family, no identity. Without identity, a vacuum of sense or purpose. And without that, a new society based only in consumism. It’s not misoginy, it’s just reflecting on the reasons of traditional structures, and what their movement implies. Men will not occupy the private sphere. Have women abandon it, and you’ll end up with no public sphere whatsoever, and everyone just obbeying what some influencer says in twitter, instagram, youtube or whatever.

That’s why, below and below any politically correct speech, feminism as it is understood today which is as a total cultural struggle (that goes beyond fair and absolutely reasonable claims such as rebellion against harassment or difference in payment), is very, very useful to the corporations. And that is why it is very, very present in the corporations agenda. It’s the trojan horse through which tear down the only barreer left between the human person and the massive consumer.

And that is why femminism and this apparent oriental philosophy of not holding on, letting go and being passive go absolutely hand in hand and are all part of a same stage of modern capitalism advancing over the human being, when evil and good are no longer needed as concepts, nor men or women, nor family, nor identity, nor stability of any type. And yes, no more heroes please. Just be comfortable with the world we create for you because it is what it is.

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flametitan said:

I started thinking about Rogue One again, and I started to realize more about my problem with the Resistance in TLJ. Aside from it being the organization the protagonists work for, why do we care about them? Especially when the film tries to set up a very grey world, blurring the lines between good and evil. Yes, they’re fighting the fascist regime, but the film doesn’t really make an effort to set up the First Order as an oppressive force on the Galaxy they conquered, either.

We can argue the quality of the characters and the structure, but Rogue One showed off just what was at stake in the film. The Empire was shown as a nearly omnipresent and oppressive force, willing to level a city (and pretty much the surrounding continent) to deal with some insurgents giving them trouble and test out a new toy. We’re shown the importance of the Macguffin and why it matters that the characters obtain it.

In TLJ, we’re more told about how bad the First Order ruling the galaxy is; the only times we’re given a real reason as to believe how terrible it is is when they destroy the Hosnian System and brainwash children into being stormtroopers in TFA. Otherwise, we’re got really given a reason as to why we should give a damn who’s in charge.

How is this any different than the OT?

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 (Edited)

TV’s Frink said:

flametitan said:

I started thinking about Rogue One again, and I started to realize more about my problem with the Resistance in TLJ. Aside from it being the organization the protagonists work for, why do we care about them? Especially when the film tries to set up a very grey world, blurring the lines between good and evil. Yes, they’re fighting the fascist regime, but the film doesn’t really make an effort to set up the First Order as an oppressive force on the Galaxy they conquered, either.

We can argue the quality of the characters and the structure, but Rogue One showed off just what was at stake in the film. The Empire was shown as a nearly omnipresent and oppressive force, willing to level a city (and pretty much the surrounding continent) to deal with some insurgents giving them trouble and test out a new toy. We’re shown the importance of the Macguffin and why it matters that the characters obtain it.

In TLJ, we’re more told about how bad the First Order ruling the galaxy is; the only times we’re given a real reason as to believe how terrible it is is when they destroy the Hosnian System and brainwash children into being stormtroopers in TFA. Otherwise, we’re got really given a reason as to why we should give a damn who’s in charge.

How is this any different than the OT?

In the OT:

In Star Wars we give a damn because the empire destroyed the legendary the Jedi Knights, killed Luke’s family and apparently his father, swept away any symbol of democracy the Senate represented, and blew up a civilian planet to find rebels. As the force that opposes this empire, we’re given reason to root for them.

In ESB we’re not really given a reason to give a damn, but the film doesn’t even really pretend they’re important; as soon as the Battle of Hoth ends they dispense of the rebellion almost entirely until the very last scene where Luke gets his robo hand. That said, they keep on showing why we should care that the Empire’s in charge with Darth Vader’s lack of concern for human life and lying to Lando by ordering the capture and lockdown of Bespin despite already getting what he came for.

In RotJ admittedly it relies on the momentum of the first film as to why we should care, but it gives us the return of the planet cracking Death Star, and if I recall implied that they abused the ewoks.

In the Last Jedi we’re relying on momentum from Starkiller Base and Finn’s chilhood to establish that they’re evil. The film doesn’t do much on its own to make us really concerned that they’re in charge. They use “They’re connected to the First Order” to make the casino a bad place, only to undermine it by having the resistance buy from them too. If anything, the implied abuse of the CGI horse-goats does a better job of selling us that this is a scummy planet than it being connected to the FO does.

EDIT: Oh, and TLJ tries to simultaneously make us want to care about the near destruction of the resistance while also trying (and not really doing a good job of it imo) to paint them as a grey, less than good organization. The OT never tried to have us care for the rebellion and paint them grey.

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flametitan said:

TV’s Frink said:

flametitan said:

I started thinking about Rogue One again, and I started to realize more about my problem with the Resistance in TLJ. Aside from it being the organization the protagonists work for, why do we care about them? Especially when the film tries to set up a very grey world, blurring the lines between good and evil. Yes, they’re fighting the fascist regime, but the film doesn’t really make an effort to set up the First Order as an oppressive force on the Galaxy they conquered, either.

We can argue the quality of the characters and the structure, but Rogue One showed off just what was at stake in the film. The Empire was shown as a nearly omnipresent and oppressive force, willing to level a city (and pretty much the surrounding continent) to deal with some insurgents giving them trouble and test out a new toy. We’re shown the importance of the Macguffin and why it matters that the characters obtain it.

In TLJ, we’re more told about how bad the First Order ruling the galaxy is; the only times we’re given a real reason as to believe how terrible it is is when they destroy the Hosnian System and brainwash children into being stormtroopers in TFA. Otherwise, we’re got really given a reason as to why we should give a damn who’s in charge.

How is this any different than the OT?

In the OT:

In Star Wars we give a damn because the empire destroyed the legendary the Jedi Knights

Which we didn’t see at all.

killed Luke’s family and apparently his father

In TFA the FO burns down a village and kills everyone.

swept away any symbol of democracy the Senate represented

Didn’t see at all and barely mentioned in passing.

and blew up a civilian planet to find rebels.

In TFA they blew up multiple planets.

I’m sorry, I just don’t see how this isn’t another one of those cases where the new movies are held to a completely different standard than the old movies.

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oojason said:

Sorry Jason but I’m not buying his diplomatic talk over everything else he has already said about the matter on top of his reaction after his first viewing speaking volumes about his feelings on the matter. I think he’s dying to say what he really thinks about the whole matter but at the same time doesn’t want to jeopardise his role in IX by pissing off Disney.

This video pulls some of those comments together along with his post viewing reaction, though I wish it didn’t have the bleeding heart violin music over the top of it all.

https://youtu.be/UpWwp-oh4YA

.Val