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The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 74

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Han probably never stopped modifying the ship over the decades.

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Where were you in '77?

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ray_afraid said:

Sothis said:

DominicCobb said:

What’s funny to me is people complained that TFA played it too safe, now this did the opposite of that and people are still complaining.

this is too real.

Since when is anything for everybody?

There were people who didn’t like Star Wars in '77.
There were people who liked Star Wars in '77 who didn’t like ESB in '80.
There were people who liked Star Wars in '77 and ESB in '80 but not ROTJ in ‘83.
This has happened with every film. Nothin’ new at all. This is the way everything works.
Nothing is for everybody. No big deal.

Exactly.

My ideal SW film(s) would be a faithful adaptation of the Great Sith War storyline from the Tales of the Jedi comics infused with lots of Bergmanesque existentialism. I’m guessing a lot of SW fans wouldn’t like SW films in that vein, being too tonally and aesthetically different from the other movies, but that’s okay; I wouldn’t disparage them for not finding it their cup of tea. Different strokes and all that jazz.

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The extra bunk was added so Ben had somewhere to sleep. It was by the door and drafty, thus his longstanding resentment of his father.

The Jedi are all but extinct.......
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Again, to those who liked it good for you. That’s fine. I’m not trying to discredit anyone or their likes/dislikes. This is at least one place I feel I can be honest about SW topics.
TLJ killed me. Just gutted me.

But to me this is painfully obvious:
Disney Wars has nothing to do with Star Wars. It has no heart, no soul and no reason for being other than as a property to make money. They do not work as proper standalone features and they certainly have no regard for the property they claim to be a part of.

The more I think about what I saw is to realize how it essentially gives the middle finger to the universe of SW-to a degree that makes what TFA did look like nothing.
Not even the worst of the EU so blatantly disregarded the way the universe of the story worked. To me The Phantom Menace is Shakespearean in comparison. There. Yes, I really said it.

Did anyone else feel as badly as I did?

VADER!? WHERE THE HELL IS MY MOCHA LATTE? -Palpy on a very bad day.
“George didn’t think there was any future in dead Han toys.”-Harrison Ford
YT channel:
https://www.youtube.com/c/DamnFoolIdealisticCrusader

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captainsolo said:

Did anyone else feel as badly as I did?

Perhaps had I seen the movie, yes. As it is, though, just going off of others’ reviews and general spoilers, I still feel sickened to the core. I thought the NJO & Legacy eras did a profound job undermining the successes of Luke, Leia, Han, et al. and destroying the future of the SW Universe, but they haven’t wreaked an eighth as much damage as the ST has done.

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Disney Ruined Star Wars said:

Cobra Kai said:

TavorX said:
What I DO have an issue with is that Rey has very little conflict character wise. Her fast Jedi leveling-up would be fine if she had stronger inner conflict.

Agreed.
One of my main issues with TLJ is Rey’s character. She doesn’t actually go through any training, nor does the movie focus on her personal journey / inner struggles. Most of her time she spends just trying to get through to Luke and Kylo. Thus we are left at the end with a pretty bland protagonist heading in to the THIRD MOVIE, which is a shame because it feels like such a wasted opportunity for what could have been a really cool character.

Abrams didn’t do much better with her in TFA, but the first 10 minutes or so where she is introduced on Jakku - I thought that was a great introduction for the character. In fact, for me that’s really the only section in any of the Disney SW movies that feels like “Star Wars.” It features really solid, visual storytelling and we learn a lot about Rey in just a few short minutes. (John Williams’ theme here adds a lot as well).

There’s a screenwriting guru who says this is the generic bad female script example. Female protagonist spends 120 pages trying to solve everyone else’s problems. Generic bad male script example is the spy or action type where everyone is double crossing or triple crossing each other and trying to kill each other. There’s that in TLJ too.

Just a terrible script. I wonder who mostly wrote or signed off on it?

I still can’t believe that Lawrence Kasdan was involved in helping write TFA. He did such a great job with Indiana Jones and Empire and Jedi of the OT. I was really excited that he was involved in TFA. But what we got was crap. I’m hoping he did a real good job on the Solo movie. I also hope in the extras on the Solo Blu-Ray that they show and discuss what was the problem with the original directors. I believe I read that Kasdan didn’t like what he was seeing with I’m guessing the dailies or something.

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Cobra Kai said:

Shopping Maul said:

One of my main issues with TLJ is Rey’s character. She doesn’t actually go through any training, nor does the movie focus on her personal journey / inner struggles. Most of her time she spends just trying to get through to Luke and Kylo. Thus we are left at the end with a pretty bland protagonist heading in to the THIRD MOVIE, which is a shame because it feels like such a wasted opportunity for what could have been a really cool character.

Abrams didn’t do much better with her in TFA, but the first 10 minutes or so where she is introduced on Jakku - I thought that was a great introduction for the character. In fact, for me that’s really the only section in any of the Disney SW movies that feels like “Star Wars.” It features really solid, visual storytelling and we learn a lot about Rey in just a few short minutes. (John Williams’ theme here adds a lot as well).

Don’t get me wrong - I like that TLJ tried to return the Force to its roots as just an energy field used by space-Yogis. But it’s too late because Rey exhibits exactly the kind of exaggerated powers implied by ROTJ and the prequels - inherited abilities that belong to a chosen few even in the complete absence of Jedi intervention. The best defence for her Mary Sue-ness in TFA was post-ROTJ logic - you don’t have to live in space-Tibet and meditate for 6 months to hone these powers because you can automatically have a genetic predisposition.

Which is why everyone thought she was a ‘Kenobi’ or a ‘Skywalker’ or even a ‘Palpatine’. It’s annoying (to a fan like me who hates this notion of inherited Jedi-ness) but it follows logically from what’s been established.

But Rey gets to have her cake and eat it too, because she’s a nobody. She’s an everyman/woman like Luke was in ANH with the Force as a ‘mere’ energy field, but she has prequel-level powers. This in turn trivialises the Force because, if it’s no longer genetic, then it simply must be infinitely more accessible than the first films implied.

Conclusion? TLJ is silly, but ROTJ screwed things up in the first place!

There’s nothing in ROTJ that implies “exaggerated” abilities without having to train. The problems started in TFA. She didn’t have to be that powerful, but I think they just didn’t have time to get the script ready, and the end result feels like a rough draft.

Lawrence Kasdan said when they took over writing duties from Michael Arndt, that they basically “started from scratch.” That was in November of 2013, just a few short months before filming. They also said they had trouble figuring out Luke’s role in the movie as Rey’s mentor, as he was originally supposed to be, so they just decided to stick him on an island and be the mcguffin.

As a result of that decision, Rian then had to figure out the whole Luke-Hermit angle. So instead of the movie focusing on Rey’s character, she becomes more of a side character, helping to bring Luke back to the force.

I was reading something recently that Lucas originally had Luke secluded on that planet like a hermit. And then Rey i.e. “Kira” would train under Luke during the first movie. Don’t know what else Lucas had planned out. But then after Disney bought it, they decided to have Han Solo be the mentor to “Rey” in the first movie. Then have Luke train her during the 2nd movie.

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DuracellEnergizer said:

TavorX said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

I haven’t seen TLJ and won’t, and the same will hold true for the Han Solo movie and Ep. IX. People are free to doubt my commitment if they so wish; the world will go on regardless.

What made you avoid this film? After seeing TFA? After the trailer for TLJ? The reviews?

Reviews and general spoilers. Luke is my favourite SW character, and honestly his characterization in ROTJ – the promise that he would go on to recreate the Jedi – is essentially the only major thing I liked from that film. It’s bad enough that TFA introduced the concept that Luke’s nascent Jedi Order was eradicated by his own nephew, but I could’ve lived with it if Luke kept his head up and kept on truckin’. Instead he runs off to hide and wallow in self pity while the galaxy deteriorates in his absence. To me that is complete and utter character assassination; I refuse to dignify the movie’s existence by watching it.

I think the new trilogy should have been it’s own thing and been around the new Jedi Temple or something. With Luke been training new Jedi, and then a new Sith comes out of hiding and turns one of his students. I don’t know, but something like that maybe. i.e. no Star Destroyers and no Storm Troopers as that was destroyed in/around ROTJ. And also because not having those things would make the ST it’s own separate thing kind of like with the prequels.

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TavorX said:

Collipso said:

Another nitpicky thing: why was Luke alive? If he wanted to die, honestly, why didn’t he just kill himself? Like, really, it took him a long while to decide that he should do something worthwhile.
“I came here to die” well just jump from the cliff buddy you’ll be dead in 5 sec!! It would have been the easiest way for the Jedi to end and etc. (and this is actually a very serious matter)

That question has been on my mind as well, but I was surprised to see no one bring it up until now. He came there to die… and yet he’s busy trying to… survive? Definitely lost on me.

I think this is a good example of why I think it probably would have been best to have Lucas overseeing the new trilogy while others wrote and directed them. Kind of like with the OT. Because Lucas could oversee the new trilogy to hopefully keep there from being huge gaping plot holes. With Disney, they have several people involved with overseeing the direction instead of there being one person in charge to keep everyone going in the same direction.

I don’t remember people discussing huge plot holes with the OT. It all seemed to fit together pretty good.

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If Luke simply decided to go with Rey back to the Resistance instead of being Yoda 2.0, wouldn’t that itself make this movie already more different from the OT than what it desperately tried to be?
Like, honestly, it’s not even that hard, JJ gave it all to you, the setup, everything.

Edit: by the way, merry Christmas all 😃

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Disney Ruined Star Wars said:

Aside from hugging for a few seconds during Yub Nub, there are no other scenes with Luke and Leia together between this one and when Luke goes off to hide and die on a remote planet:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDYX_PgorRY

That’s a really wide gulf story-wise with no explanation except gee I’m a bad teacher and I tried to kill one of my students and then he burned down my temple.

😦

Did they ever say how long Luke had been hiding for?

After TFA, I had thought that Luke might have been on that planet for like a couple of decades. But after seeing TLJ with Luke trying to kill an “older” looking Kylo. I’m thinking he might have just been hiding for a couple of years.

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lovelikewinter said:

Kylo had a major scene with Han in TFA. As for Leia, I’m giving them a pass because no one expected Carrie Fisher to pass away and they made plans for IX to be her focus like TFA was for Han and TLJ was for Luke.

Carry passing away was a terrible thing. And I don’t want to take that away, but we have to deal with reality now. And I’m actually glad that Leia isn’t going to be in IX as I don’t think Carry could act anymore. Plus she didn’t look like an old lady Leia that I would have wanted to see. I think Carry’s stuff in the ST is just one of the worst things about them.

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Collipso said:

I think some of the criticism that’s been directed at TLJ should be directed at TFA instead. TFA set up its sequels with having to answer so many questions that should’ve been answered by TFA itself. It worked as a first part in a two parter, and it should’ve been a standalone film to set things up, like Star Wars and even The Phantom Menace were.
One example is Snoke and the First Order. Why not just tell us how he rose to power and how the First Order came to be in TFA? Why leave it to the other movies? But no, screw it. TFA shouldn’t have left a mystery box for the other movies to fill.

This is a good reason why if say this ST was around the new Jedi Temple with Luke training new Jedi. Then looking at that compared to ROTJ, we wouldn’t need an explanation with how the Jedi Temple was created, etc.

Where as, based on what we saw in ROTJ, we really need explanation for how the First Order, Snoke, and the new Storm Troopers came about.

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DrDre said:

Collipso said:

I think some of the criticism that’s been directed at TLJ should be directed at TFA instead. TFA set up its sequels with having to answer so many questions that should’ve been answered by TFA itself. It worked as a first part in a two parter, and it should’ve been a standalone film to set things up, like Star Wars and even The Phantom Menace were.
One example is Snoke and the First Order. Why not just tell us how he rose to power and how the First Order came to be in TFA? Why leave it to the other movies? But no, screw it. TFA shouldn’t have left a mystery box for the other movies to fill.

I think the biggest problem is the lack of an overarching set of themes for the ST. It’s obvious these films were created by two different artists with very different agendas. Additionally TLJ 's story is a mishmash of OT story threads and elements, driven by the desire to defy all expectations, rather than to tell it’s own story independent of expectations.

Yes, seems like TLJ was done the way it was done by Rian to just throw away the questions/answers to TFA just to frustrate all the fan theories past 2 years.

Problem is in 5-10 years, these movies will have to stand on their own. No one will care if TLJ was done in a way to frustrate all the TFA/ST theories out there.

I do hope JJ retcons a lot of what Rian threw away. i.e. who Rey’s parents are. Looks like Rian has only confirmed that Kylo believes what he saw. But that Rian wouldn’t confirm that what Kylo saw was what/who Rey’s parents really are/were. So looks like that will be left up to JJ to deal with, or just ignore and let what Rian answered stand.

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If JJ decides to contradict Rian in everything the ST is going to be the messiest trilogy of all time, with TLJ contradicting TFA and IX contradicting TLJ.

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Collipso said:

If JJ decides to contradict Rian in everything the ST is going to be the messiest trilogy of all time, with TLJ contradicting TFA and IX contradicting TLJ.

I guess the twist this time around could be that unlike Vader, who told the truth, Kylo/Luke lied to Rey and she actually is Ben’s sister. That’s the reason Maz recognizes her eyes, why Kylo asks ‘what girl?’, why Luke says he’s only ever seen that raw power in one other force user, etc. Kylo lies to her bc he knows that if she knew he killed HER father, she’d never join him.

Contradicting TLJ in that way wouldn’t just be a simple flip-flop. It could be part of explaining some unexplained plot points.

The Jedi are all but extinct.......
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DrDre said:

oojason said:

If people are complaining that TFA was too safe - and now complaining that it is too different - then that is no comment on the quality (good or bad etc) of the film itself. These is no inference in their statements that ‘different is automatically good’ at all.

I suppose to a degree, although criticizing a film for being too safe, does imply it would have been better, if it was less safe. Being safe is percieved as a weakness of the film, meaning it would be stronger without that weakness. Since, TLJ is percieved as not being safe, that would imply it does not have this weakness, even of it may have a host of other weaknesses. I think it goes a bit far to suggest, that a film being too similar or too different isn’t in some way meant to reflect of the quality of the film in question.

I don’t view TFA as “playing it too safe”. I view it as badly directed and edited movie with a really bad story and with some bad acting. But I also view it as a rip-off of A New Hope. I don’t view that as being too safe, but just a rip-off. If you go look at the prequels, none of those movies are “rip-offs” of the OT.

I’m betting if Lucas was still in charge of the ST, then we wouldn’t be getting any rip-off or soft-reboots of the earlier movies.

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DrDre said:

oojason said:

It’ll be interesting to see members’ views after Episode IX is released and we’ve all had time to take in the Sequel Trilogy as a whole.

As of right now, a lot of the differing and passionate opinions on here and throughout the various threads… may well change upon completion and reflection of seeing everything in the ST tied together - as a trilogy in itself, and as part of the whole saga overall.
 

Two down, one to go… 😃

That’s an interesting question indeed. Aside from the ST, I think it’s also interesting to consider how the ST will connect to the rest of the saga. It is meant to be part of a nine part saga afterall. I’m a bit skeptical, but TLJ does make it impossible for Abrams to create ROTJ 2.0, so it may turn out to be the greatest setup in the history of Star Wars.

For a while, we were told that Johnson would also be writing and directing Episode 9. But recently we learned that instead, JJ was coming back for 9. Does anyone know what happened there? I’m wondering if Lucasfilm decided they didn’t like the direction that Johnson took the ST in, and decided to bring JJ back to retcon it?

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SilverWook said:

one69chev said:

Projected 68% percent drop in movie ticket sales this weekend; that is Batman vs Superman territory. TFA dropped 39% from its first weekend to its second. We can speculate over the ‘real’ review numbers, but box office numbers will generally indicate how the movie going public really feels about a movie; case in point, The Justice League which will most likely finish its box office run with less than $700 million worldwide.

Most hardcore fans have seen the film, and Christmas being on a Monday this year means one last full weekend of shopping madness. Also, this is the third SW flick we’ve had since 2015. Arguably there was a lot of pent up demand when TFA came out.

I’m old enough to remember when the holiday season was a terrible time to open a non holiday film/non kid’s movie.

At least the Jumanji remake didn’t beat it. That would have been embarrassing. 😉

When I heard that Disney planned to do a new Star Wars movie every year a long while back. I was doubtful of that as I figure there would be some fatigue set in, and they’d have to keep the quality up real high to make it work. The only thing I can see that might make up the difference is the toys and licensing merchandise that might make it worth it even if the box office dips.

We see that with the bad performance of Justice League how that almost ended that franchise. But looks like they are going to try and do a soft-reboot via Flashpoint instead of doing a hard reboot that many people think should be done.

I bet that the Solo movie does less at the box office than Rogue One. Though it may do the same because it has Solo and Chewie to help carry the movie vs. a bunch of unknown characters in Rogue One.

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SilverWook said:

I’m old enough to remember when the holiday season was a terrible time to open a non holiday film/non kid’s movie.

Yeah, me too. The first real Christmas ‘blockbuster’ I remember was Titanic which debuted with so so box office numbers and not so great critical reviews, but for some reason, the general public loved it which led to its extended stay in theatres. Of course the LOTR films coming out seemed to help cement this new trend. As of this weekend, however TLJ is almost a full $200 million behind TFA over the same time period; but with little real competition, TLJ could surprise some folks.

At least the Jumanji remake didn’t beat it. That would have been embarrassing. 😉

I am predicting at least a few Oscars for Jumanji; it is a quality film with a brilliant narrative.

Kidding of course…it is no where near Fate of the Furious quality.

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SilverWook said:

Han probably never stopped modifying the ship over the decades.

But does anyone know when after ROTJ that the Millennium Falcon get’s stolen from Han?

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Ryan said:

If you go look at the prequels, none of those movies are “rip-offs” of the OT.

I’m betting if Lucas was still in charge of the ST, then we wouldn’t be getting any rip-off or soft-reboots of the earlier movies.

Really? TPM was a rip off of ANH with extra boring bits added to throw you off, with the whole last act being ROTJ. And AOTC has more in common with ESB than TFA does with ANH. They just jumble it up a bit more and make it look like a video game to throw you off.

Ryan said:

For a while, we were told that Johnson would also be writing and directing Episode 9. But recently we learned that instead, JJ was coming back for 9. Does anyone know what happened there? I’m wondering if Lucasfilm decided they didn’t like the direction that Johnson took the ST in, and decided to bring JJ back to retcon it?

Yeh, they must have really hated his take on the ST to give him how own trilogy. SMH

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