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The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 68

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I think it’s a hard pill to swallow since Rey’s natural talent isn’t contrasted with inner conflict, or really anything obstacle wise, in the second movie of a trilogy!

I saw it twice, and as far as I can remember, I don’t think she really struggled to lift those rocks. But her surprised expression, I don’t think it’s an issue. I mean, you’ve got Luke in A New Hope, who’s a brag about sniping womp rats, shouts, “I GOT EM! I GOT EM!” when sniping those Tie Fighters from the Falcon gun. I believe it’s just a display of emotion where even though the characters are confident in their abilities, it’s a whole ’nother expectation to do it under high stake conditions, hence the surprise expression.

Still, however, the scene doesn’t really serve Rey well given again, you have people that hate Rey’s ease and use of the Force, and you have people similar to us that don’t mind Rey’s fast progression but can admit that Rey thus far doesn’t have much struggle to overcome to back up the heroic acts she’s able to pull.

I guess the whole thing really comes down to one’s own subjective credulity when it comes to the SW universe. I mean even Yoda’s X-wing gesture opens a can of worms. Okay, size matters not, so technically I should be able to hurl the Death Star into a neighbouring planet then? Clearly a lot of SW ‘logic’ comes down to how it ‘feels’ within the story.

I’m not a prequel fan, but I remember when the Jedi council decided not to train Anakin. Now Anakin was already self-trained to a point - he had super-human reflexes and a knack for premonitions. Could he have carried on his merry way and become a Sith Lord on his own? Or does training make the difference? It’s fair to say that Ep 4 implies (through its own internal logic) that Luke would never have even considered the Force - and thus never tried to learn specific Force skills - if Obi Wan hadn’t told him about it.

So I guess this is where it gets tricky. I like the idea of a ‘feral Jedi’ - someone who inadvertently learns Force techniques the same way little Annie honed his reflexes. But Rey lifting those rocks, and even the Oliver Twist stable boy moving brooms around, doesn’t feel right to me. I think you’re absolutely right about that internal struggle too.

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I wonder how much training the Jedi did was basic life skills: piloting, navigation and math, languages, diplomacy and then focusing on not so much being able to do Force stuff but having the maturity to do so.

It seems like people are really embracing the new characters. In fact, the big question people ask me now about Star Wars is, “Are Finn and Poe gay lovers?” And really how the f*ck would I know? My second husband left me for a man, so my gaydar isn’t exactly what you’d call Death Star level quality. ----Carrie Fisher

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TavorX said:
What I DO have an issue with is that Rey has very little conflict character wise. Her fast Jedi leveling-up would be fine if she had stronger inner conflict.

Agreed.
One of my main issues with TLJ is Rey’s character. She doesn’t actually go through any training, nor does the movie focus on her personal journey / inner struggles. Most of her time she spends just trying to get through to Luke and Kylo. Thus we are left at the end with a pretty bland protagonist heading in to the THIRD MOVIE, which is a shame because it feels like such a wasted opportunity for what could have been a really cool character.

Abrams didn’t do much better with her in TFA, but the first 10 minutes or so where she is introduced on Jakku - I thought that was a great introduction for the character. In fact, for me that’s really the only section in any of the Disney SW movies that feels like “Star Wars.” It features really solid, visual storytelling and we learn a lot about Rey in just a few short minutes. (John Williams’ theme here adds a lot as well).

“In the future it will become even easier for old negatives to become lost and be “replaced” by new altered negatives. This would be a great loss to our society. Our cultural history must not be allowed to be rewritten.” - George Lucas

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Cobra Kai said:

TavorX said:
What I DO have an issue with is that Rey has very little conflict character wise. Her fast Jedi leveling-up would be fine if she had stronger inner conflict.

Agreed.
One of my main issues with TLJ is Rey’s character. She doesn’t actually go through any training, nor does the movie focus on her personal journey / inner struggles. Most of her time she spends just trying to get through to Luke and Kylo. Thus we are left at the end with a pretty bland protagonist heading in to the THIRD MOVIE, which is a shame because it feels like such a wasted opportunity for what could have been a really cool character.

Abrams didn’t do much better with her in TFA, but the first 10 minutes or so where she is introduced on Jakku - I thought that was a great introduction for the character. In fact, for me that’s really the only section in any of the Disney SW movies that feels like “Star Wars.” It features really solid, visual storytelling and we learn a lot about Rey in just a few short minutes. (John Williams’ theme here adds a lot as well).

All of this for sure! Your second point even more so highlights why I’m so frustrated with how Rey was done in TLJ. I went from being impressed, feeling this connection to this brand new character, to overall disappointed. I have very little reason to root for her anymore. The only flimsy story thread from this film and into the next that I’m curious about is how Rey will use the Jedi books. But man, for a 2nd act, I should be wanting Rey to succeed so badly, but I just don’t.

The Rise of Failures

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Cobra Kai said:

TavorX said:
What I DO have an issue with is that Rey has very little conflict character wise. Her fast Jedi leveling-up would be fine if she had stronger inner conflict.

Agreed.
One of my main issues with TLJ is Rey’s character. She doesn’t actually go through any training, nor does the movie focus on her personal journey / inner struggles. Most of her time she spends just trying to get through to Luke and Kylo. Thus we are left at the end with a pretty bland protagonist heading in to the THIRD MOVIE, which is a shame because it feels like such a wasted opportunity for what could have been a really cool character.

Abrams didn’t do much better with her in TFA, but the first 10 minutes or so where she is introduced on Jakku - I thought that was a great introduction for the character. In fact, for me that’s really the only section in any of the Disney SW movies that feels like “Star Wars.” It features really solid, visual storytelling and we learn a lot about Rey in just a few short minutes. (John Williams’ theme here adds a lot as well).

There’s a screenwriting guru who says this is the generic bad female script example. Female protagonist spends 120 pages trying to solve everyone else’s problems. Generic bad male script example is the spy or action type where everyone is double crossing or triple crossing each other and trying to kill each other. There’s that in TLJ too.

Just a terrible script. I wonder who mostly wrote or signed off on it?

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Shopping Maul said:

I guess the whole thing really comes down to one’s own subjective credulity when it comes to the SW universe. I mean even Yoda’s X-wing gesture opens a can of worms. Okay, size matters not, so technically I should be able to hurl the Death Star into a neighbouring planet then? Clearly a lot of SW ‘logic’ comes down to how it ‘feels’ within the story.

I think you’re right in part about subjective credulity but it is possible to overthink or underthink some things.

Yoda seemed to strain (or at least devote great concentration) to harness the Force sufficient to lift the X-Wing, though he could do it. Though size may not matter in terms of whether one can do something, exerting influence through the Force appears limited by physical/mental capabilities. It may simply be easier to envision moving a small ship than it is to accept moving a planet-sized object. So that you could move the Death Star with great concentration but would be exhausting and you couldn’t just fling it around like it was nothing.

Or maybe Yoda didn’t intend his statement as an absolute (only Siths deal in absolutes 😛) whereby a Jedi can be like Neo in the Matrix if only he can free his mind. If that were the case, Yoda should have been able to toss the X-Wing in the air like it was nothing. Maybe the lesson was limited to the difference between moving rocks and an X-Wing and Yoda felt Luke could accomplish that feat.

There certainly are elements where there is no easily discernible reason for something, but once we go down this path…we sound like obsessed nerds.

The blue elephant in the room.

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One of my main issues with TLJ is Rey’s character. She doesn’t actually go through any training, nor does the movie focus on her personal journey / inner struggles. Most of her time she spends just trying to get through to Luke and Kylo. Thus we are left at the end with a pretty bland protagonist heading in to the THIRD MOVIE, which is a shame because it feels like such a wasted opportunity for what could have been a really cool character.

Abrams didn’t do much better with her in TFA, but the first 10 minutes or so where she is introduced on Jakku - I thought that was a great introduction for the character. In fact, for me that’s really the only section in any of the Disney SW movies that feels like “Star Wars.” It features really solid, visual storytelling and we learn a lot about Rey in just a few short minutes. (John Williams’ theme here adds a lot as well).

The blue elephant in the room here is ROTJ. In ANH and TESB, the Force was basically space-yoga. It was something that anyone with the correct discipline/attitude etc could learn and perfect - the only caveat being that it was really difficult. It was implied that Luke might follow in his old man’s footsteps and have an aptitude for it, but that’s no crazier than potentially being a great footballer 'cos your Dad was. There was also nothing to suggest that Obi Wan and Yoda had plans for Luke. Obi was in retirement and Yoda seemed to have quit the Jedi business entirely.

ROTJ threw this all out the window by making Luke and Leia a potential threat by birthright alone (necessitated by making Leia the ‘other’ despite no previous Jedi connections whatsoever) and creating that ‘hidden from the Emperor’ nonsense. So now these abilities were inherited. Suddenly Leia was all cosmically aware (“he wasn’t, I can feel it”) purely because she was a Skywalker.

The prequels confirmed that it’s strictly genetic. Now it was all down to your midichlorian count, and Anakin happened to be loaded with these things. This accounted for his reflexes, his premonitions - plus it turned out that he was created entirely from midichlorians to fulfil a Jedi prophecy.

Don’t get me wrong - I like that TLJ tried to return the Force to its roots as just an energy field used by space-Yogis. But it’s too late because Rey exhibits exactly the kind of exaggerated powers implied by ROTJ and the prequels - inherited abilities that belong to a chosen few even in the complete absence of Jedi intervention. The best defence for her Mary Sue-ness in TFA was post-ROTJ logic - you don’t have to live in space-Tibet and meditate for 6 months to hone these powers because you can automatically have a genetic predisposition.

Which is why everyone thought she was a ‘Kenobi’ or a ‘Skywalker’ or even a ‘Palpatine’. It’s annoying (to a fan like me who hates this notion of inherited Jedi-ness) but it follows logically from what’s been established.

But Rey gets to have her cake and eat it too, because she’s a nobody. She’s an everyman/woman like Luke was in ANH with the Force as a ‘mere’ energy field, but she has prequel-level powers. This in turn trivialises the Force because, if it’s no longer genetic, then it simply must be infinitely more accessible than the first films implied.

Conclusion? TLJ is silly, but ROTJ screwed things up in the first place!

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There certainly are elements where there is no easily discernible reason for something, but once we go down this path…we sound like obsessed nerds.

Ha ha I think that particular starship has already sailed for me…

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Anakin should have been a vergence in the Force, at least Qui-Gon thought so.
How about the Force telling Qui-Gon “Fuck you, I’ll show you a vergence” and creating Rey.

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Shopping Maul said:

The blue elephant in the room here is ROTJ. In ANH and TESB, the Force was basically space-yoga. It was something that anyone with the correct discipline/attitude etc could learn and perfect - the only caveat being that it was really difficult. It was implied that Luke might follow in his old man’s footsteps and have an aptitude for it, but that’s no crazier than potentially being a great footballer 'cos your Dad was. There was also nothing to suggest that Obi Wan and Yoda had plans for Luke. Obi was in retirement and Yoda seemed to have quit the Jedi business entirely.

ROTJ threw this all out the window by making Luke and Leia a potential threat by birthright alone (necessitated by making Leia the ‘other’ despite no previous Jedi connections whatsoever) and creating that ‘hidden from the Emperor’ nonsense. So now these abilities were inherited. Suddenly Leia was all cosmically aware (“he wasn’t, I can feel it”) purely because she was a Skywalker.

This continues from my previous response to you and affirms my own obsessive nerd qualities.

I am an unrepentant ROTJ apologist and I fancy myself the blue elephant in the room, as you can see from my name.

I see nothing wrong with the idea that Force sensitivity can run in families. That doesn’t mean anyone born into a family will have it nor that anybody else can’t.

Leia could well have been suppressing that part of her psyche because it was at odds with her upbringing or simply uncomfortable for her to admit. Don’t forget that Leia was the one to sense Luke hanging out under Cloud City in ESB. You could say that was all Luke’s doing or recognize it was the first inklings that Leia had latent sensitivity to the Force.

In ROTJ, when Vader referenced the possibility of using turning Leia to the dark side, that was clearly a threatening tactic, not total confidence that Leia would be powerful simply by virtue of her relation.

The idea that anybody could harness the Force if only they tried is far less compelling to me.

The blue elephant in the room.

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Mrebo said:

Shopping Maul said:

The blue elephant in the room here is ROTJ. In ANH and TESB, the Force was basically space-yoga. It was something that anyone with the correct discipline/attitude etc could learn and perfect - the only caveat being that it was really difficult. It was implied that Luke might follow in his old man’s footsteps and have an aptitude for it, but that’s no crazier than potentially being a great footballer 'cos your Dad was. There was also nothing to suggest that Obi Wan and Yoda had plans for Luke. Obi was in retirement and Yoda seemed to have quit the Jedi business entirely.

ROTJ threw this all out the window by making Luke and Leia a potential threat by birthright alone (necessitated by making Leia the ‘other’ despite no previous Jedi connections whatsoever) and creating that ‘hidden from the Emperor’ nonsense. So now these abilities were inherited. Suddenly Leia was all cosmically aware (“he wasn’t, I can feel it”) purely because she was a Skywalker.

This continues from my previous response to you and affirms my own obsessive nerd qualities.

I am an unrepentant ROTJ apologist and I fancy myself the blue elephant in the room, as you can see from my name.

I see nothing wrong with the idea that Force sensitivity can run in families. That doesn’t mean anyone born into a family will have it nor that anybody else can’t.

Leia could well have been suppressing that part of her psyche because it was at odds with her upbringing or simply uncomfortable for her to admit. Don’t forget that Leia was the one to sense Luke hanging out under Cloud City in ESB. You could say that was all Luke’s doing or recognize it was the first inklings that Leia had latent sensitivity to the Force.

In ROTJ, when Vader referenced the possibility of using turning Leia to the dark side, that was clearly a threatening tactic, not total confidence that Leia would be powerful simply by virtue of her relation.

The idea that anybody could harness the Force if only they tried is far less compelling to me.

But when The Empire Strikes Back was released Leia wasn’t Luke’s sister.

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Collipso said:

Mrebo said:

Shopping Maul said:

The blue elephant in the room here is ROTJ. In ANH and TESB, the Force was basically space-yoga. It was something that anyone with the correct discipline/attitude etc could learn and perfect - the only caveat being that it was really difficult. It was implied that Luke might follow in his old man’s footsteps and have an aptitude for it, but that’s no crazier than potentially being a great footballer 'cos your Dad was. There was also nothing to suggest that Obi Wan and Yoda had plans for Luke. Obi was in retirement and Yoda seemed to have quit the Jedi business entirely.

ROTJ threw this all out the window by making Luke and Leia a potential threat by birthright alone (necessitated by making Leia the ‘other’ despite no previous Jedi connections whatsoever) and creating that ‘hidden from the Emperor’ nonsense. So now these abilities were inherited. Suddenly Leia was all cosmically aware (“he wasn’t, I can feel it”) purely because she was a Skywalker.

This continues from my previous response to you and affirms my own obsessive nerd qualities.

I am an unrepentant ROTJ apologist and I fancy myself the blue elephant in the room, as you can see from my name.

I see nothing wrong with the idea that Force sensitivity can run in families. That doesn’t mean anyone born into a family will have it nor that anybody else can’t.

Leia could well have been suppressing that part of her psyche because it was at odds with her upbringing or simply uncomfortable for her to admit. Don’t forget that Leia was the one to sense Luke hanging out under Cloud City in ESB. You could say that was all Luke’s doing or recognize it was the first inklings that Leia had latent sensitivity to the Force.

In ROTJ, when Vader referenced the possibility of using turning Leia to the dark side, that was clearly a threatening tactic, not total confidence that Leia would be powerful simply by virtue of her relation.

The idea that anybody could harness the Force if only they tried is far less compelling to me.

But when The Empire Strikes Back was released Leia wasn’t Luke’s sister.

And for purpose of narrative it makes the later reveal make all the more sense.

Behind the scenes intentions that we now know about are a different matter.

The blue elephant in the room.

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Mrebo said:

Collipso said:

Mrebo said:

Shopping Maul said:

The blue elephant in the room here is ROTJ. In ANH and TESB, the Force was basically space-yoga. It was something that anyone with the correct discipline/attitude etc could learn and perfect - the only caveat being that it was really difficult. It was implied that Luke might follow in his old man’s footsteps and have an aptitude for it, but that’s no crazier than potentially being a great footballer 'cos your Dad was. There was also nothing to suggest that Obi Wan and Yoda had plans for Luke. Obi was in retirement and Yoda seemed to have quit the Jedi business entirely.

ROTJ threw this all out the window by making Luke and Leia a potential threat by birthright alone (necessitated by making Leia the ‘other’ despite no previous Jedi connections whatsoever) and creating that ‘hidden from the Emperor’ nonsense. So now these abilities were inherited. Suddenly Leia was all cosmically aware (“he wasn’t, I can feel it”) purely because she was a Skywalker.

This continues from my previous response to you and affirms my own obsessive nerd qualities.

I am an unrepentant ROTJ apologist and I fancy myself the blue elephant in the room, as you can see from my name.

I see nothing wrong with the idea that Force sensitivity can run in families. That doesn’t mean anyone born into a family will have it nor that anybody else can’t.

Leia could well have been suppressing that part of her psyche because it was at odds with her upbringing or simply uncomfortable for her to admit. Don’t forget that Leia was the one to sense Luke hanging out under Cloud City in ESB. You could say that was all Luke’s doing or recognize it was the first inklings that Leia had latent sensitivity to the Force.

In ROTJ, when Vader referenced the possibility of using turning Leia to the dark side, that was clearly a threatening tactic, not total confidence that Leia would be powerful simply by virtue of her relation.

The idea that anybody could harness the Force if only they tried is far less compelling to me.

But when The Empire Strikes Back was released Leia wasn’t Luke’s sister.

And for purpose of narrative it makes the later reveal make all the more sense.

Behind the scenes intentions that we now know about are a different matter.

Yeah, you’re right.

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 (Edited)

Shopping Maul said:

One of my main issues with TLJ is Rey’s character. She doesn’t actually go through any training, nor does the movie focus on her personal journey / inner struggles. Most of her time she spends just trying to get through to Luke and Kylo. Thus we are left at the end with a pretty bland protagonist heading in to the THIRD MOVIE, which is a shame because it feels like such a wasted opportunity for what could have been a really cool character.

Abrams didn’t do much better with her in TFA, but the first 10 minutes or so where she is introduced on Jakku - I thought that was a great introduction for the character. In fact, for me that’s really the only section in any of the Disney SW movies that feels like “Star Wars.” It features really solid, visual storytelling and we learn a lot about Rey in just a few short minutes. (John Williams’ theme here adds a lot as well).

Don’t get me wrong - I like that TLJ tried to return the Force to its roots as just an energy field used by space-Yogis. But it’s too late because Rey exhibits exactly the kind of exaggerated powers implied by ROTJ and the prequels - inherited abilities that belong to a chosen few even in the complete absence of Jedi intervention. The best defence for her Mary Sue-ness in TFA was post-ROTJ logic - you don’t have to live in space-Tibet and meditate for 6 months to hone these powers because you can automatically have a genetic predisposition.

Which is why everyone thought she was a ‘Kenobi’ or a ‘Skywalker’ or even a ‘Palpatine’. It’s annoying (to a fan like me who hates this notion of inherited Jedi-ness) but it follows logically from what’s been established.

But Rey gets to have her cake and eat it too, because she’s a nobody. She’s an everyman/woman like Luke was in ANH with the Force as a ‘mere’ energy field, but she has prequel-level powers. This in turn trivialises the Force because, if it’s no longer genetic, then it simply must be infinitely more accessible than the first films implied.

Conclusion? TLJ is silly, but ROTJ screwed things up in the first place!

There’s nothing in ROTJ that implies “exaggerated” abilities without having to train. The problems started in TFA. She didn’t have to be that powerful, but I think they just didn’t have time to get the script ready, and the end result feels like a rough draft.

Lawrence Kasdan said when they took over writing duties from Michael Arndt, that they basically “started from scratch.” That was in November of 2013, just a few short months before filming. They also said they had trouble figuring out Luke’s role in the movie as Rey’s mentor, as he was originally supposed to be, so they just decided to stick him on an island and be the mcguffin.

As a result of that decision, Rian then had to figure out the whole Luke-Hermit angle. So instead of the movie focusing on Rey’s character, she becomes more of a side character, helping to bring Luke back to the force.

“In the future it will become even easier for old negatives to become lost and be “replaced” by new altered negatives. This would be a great loss to our society. Our cultural history must not be allowed to be rewritten.” - George Lucas

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I’m sure lots of people have said this before, but…

Well, movie was kinda “meh” for me for a lot of reasons, but what really broke it for me was that Rey could win over Luke in a stick fight and then that Luke even entertained the thought of killing Kylo Ren in his sleep during the training. The big learning he needed an entire trilogy to experience undone with a few lines of script.

Will not be watching the final movie.

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Easy to say, difficult to prove. 😉

Forum Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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Besides The Clone Wars movie and the originals, I’ve gone to every Star Wars film thus far since I was able to. Now I wonder what my limit is. I’ll definitely see IX despite my overall disappointment in TLJ (someone that has seen it twice, and intends to see it a third time so that my mom can see it), but now I’m even more cautious of the future films.

“Easy to say, difficult to prove” nails it though. What sick game have I gotten myself into?!

The Rise of Failures

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I haven’t seen TLJ and won’t, and the same will hold true for the Han Solo movie and Ep. IX. People are free to doubt my commitment if they so wish; the world will go on regardless.

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Probably for the best. Based on everything you’ve said here about TFA and the ST in general, TLJ would probably give you a stroke. 😉

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DuracellEnergizer said:

I haven’t seen TLJ and won’t, and the same will hold true for the Han Solo movie and Ep. IX. People are free to doubt my commitment if they so wish; the world will go on regardless.

What made you avoid this film? After seeing TFA? After the trailer for TLJ? The reviews?

The Rise of Failures

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I see Rey’s fast progress as playing catchup to Kylo. Everything she has learned as been from him. He tries to read her mind and then she reads his. He tries to use the force on her and then she uses it on the Stormtrooper. He is skilled with the lightsaber and she uses the same trick. Kylo is her teacher, not Luke. That is why she has what she needs already. Plus the patience. Her conflict is with Kylo, her equal in nearly every area. Yes, she is picking up these incredible powers, but she is facing an adversary even more powerful and practiced. I see that as her character’s main conflict. Luke’s was learning the patience to do things right. Rey has the patience and she just needs the skills and some clue how to deal with Kylo and save the galaxy. I don’t think things are as easy for her as some are making it out. The force powers are not her challenge. Kylo is her challenge. No one else who has faced him has had any impact on him. So I don’t find her fast learning of force powers to make her a Mary Sue because they only put her on equal footing with her adversary. He character journey is defined in other ways, not by the force powers she is learning. When you look at her scenes with Kylo, she has not had it easy at all. Things have not gone her way. She doesn’t have it too easy by any means.

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DuracellEnergizer said:

I haven’t seen TLJ and won’t, and the same will hold true for the Han Solo movie and Ep. IX. People are free to doubt my commitment if they so wish; the world will go on regardless.

You could always wear one of these so we can monitor your movements. 😉

Forum Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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Rey might find the hero thing is easy compared to keeping any feelings of jealously in check if Finn and Rose get serious.

Forum Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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While that is an interesting thought to consider, that Kylo is Rey’s teacher, I’m not sold on why she at one point wants to kill Kylo and in another instance wants to save Kylo. Like really, I’m asking why? What is the motivation to go through all this effort? What makes her change her mind so easily throughout the movie?
“You are a MONSTER!”
“Yes, I am!”
"…"
“Okay let’s take Snoke out together like besties mmkay?”

Luke wanting to redeem Vader makes sense because there’s a personal, family, connection. Rey and Kylo have to be opposites for a reason, and Rey has to want to save Kylo for a reason. I see nothing noteworthy as to why without it being a boring good vs evil tale about saving friends.

The Rise of Failures