The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 62

Disney Ruined Star Wars said:

This was a quote I read from someone and I agree with it very much:

Sad that in the end people just throw their hands up and say "doesn’t work for you, works for me, oh well."
Good storytelling transcends subjective solipsism. The fact of the matter is that Luke’s actions in this film were not built up to in the previous films at all, and his character is a very severe departure from what he was. He also represents a bold new moral view of this universe, from the makers of this film, which is almost too sad to describe.
Art is an extension of worldview. It taps into what matters most to us. Lucas showed what matters most to him. And what was done to that worldview, and what worldview has replaced it, is chilly in the extreme. I certainly won’t be anxious to show this film to my children, when I have them. 1-6, sure. I do not agree with the values of this film, or the worldview it presents though. It seems cynical, poisonous and nihilistic, especially in light of what came before.
You may enjoy that if you like but there is no denying the shift that occurs. Anyone who denies that shift is very likely blind to the themes of these films.

I don’t want to be that guy, but I’m kind of tired of people overlooking my posts, and I do want to discuss this.

http://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/1146676

I don’t believe TLJ is that cynical, and I liked it, and it makes me disappointed that there are seemingly only a few camps that we can exist in in terms of opinion.

I don’t think that the moral values of it are even really that different or worse from or than the OT when you think about it. I think everyone saying that the Jedi are actually evil or bad for the Galaxy because of their dogma are way off base with what the movie was trying to say.

In the end, there’s a hero in all of us. You’re not defined by your failures. Trying to be the hero doesn’t make it so. Forging your own legends is more selfish than it is heroic. Sometimes just doing the right thing is enough to make a difference. All of these, I’d be fine with my children (lol if I had any) learning. I think there’s a lot here that is more important to learn than what the OT can teach, if anything.

NFBisms said:

Disney Ruined Star Wars said:

This was a quote I read from someone and I agree with it very much:

Sad that in the end people just throw their hands up and say "doesn’t work for you, works for me, oh well."
Good storytelling transcends subjective solipsism. The fact of the matter is that Luke’s actions in this film were not built up to in the previous films at all, and his character is a very severe departure from what he was. He also represents a bold new moral view of this universe, from the makers of this film, which is almost too sad to describe.
Art is an extension of worldview. It taps into what matters most to us. Lucas showed what matters most to him. And what was done to that worldview, and what worldview has replaced it, is chilly in the extreme. I certainly won’t be anxious to show this film to my children, when I have them. 1-6, sure. I do not agree with the values of this film, or the worldview it presents though. It seems cynical, poisonous and nihilistic, especially in light of what came before.
You may enjoy that if you like but there is no denying the shift that occurs. Anyone who denies that shift is very likely blind to the themes of these films.

I don’t want to be that guy, but I’m kind of tired of people overlooking my posts, and I do want to discuss this.

http://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/1146676

I don’t believe TLJ is that cynical, and I liked it, and it makes me disappointed that there are seemingly only a few camps that we can exist in in terms of opinion.

I don’t think that the moral values of it are even really that different or worse from or than the OT when you think about it. I think everyone saying that the Jedi are actually evil or bad for the Galaxy because of their dogma are way off base with what the movie was trying to say.

I definitely agree with ya there. The Last Jedi’s messages and themes are pretty optimistic in my eyes.

DrDre said:

The size of the Supremacy is 60,000 meters. The size of the first Death Star is 160,000 meters. The Death Star is bigger, but not that much bigger. Why did the rebels have to steal the plans, and send a small group of rebel ships to destroy the Death Star? Why not just take multiple cruisers piloted by droids, and have them hyperspace through it, destroying the space station? That would have surely saved a lot of lifes.

Good point. Makes me rethink this scene i quite liked.

Disney Ruined Star Wars said:

NFBisms said:

Disney Ruined Star Wars said:

This was a quote I read from someone and I agree with it very much:

Sad that in the end people just throw their hands up and say "doesn’t work for you, works for me, oh well."
Good storytelling transcends subjective solipsism. The fact of the matter is that Luke’s actions in this film were not built up to in the previous films at all, and his character is a very severe departure from what he was. He also represents a bold new moral view of this universe, from the makers of this film, which is almost too sad to describe.
Art is an extension of worldview. It taps into what matters most to us. Lucas showed what matters most to him. And what was done to that worldview, and what worldview has replaced it, is chilly in the extreme. I certainly won’t be anxious to show this film to my children, when I have them. 1-6, sure. I do not agree with the values of this film, or the worldview it presents though. It seems cynical, poisonous and nihilistic, especially in light of what came before.
You may enjoy that if you like but there is no denying the shift that occurs. Anyone who denies that shift is very likely blind to the themes of these films.

I don’t want to be that guy, but I’m kind of tired of people overlooking my posts, and I do want to discuss this.

http://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/1146676

I don’t believe TLJ is that cynical, and I liked it, and it makes me disappointed that there are seemingly only a few camps that we can exist in in terms of opinion.

I don’t think that the moral values of it are even really that different or worse from or than the OT when you think about it. I think everyone saying that the Jedi are actually evil or bad for the Galaxy because of their dogma are way off base with what the movie was trying to say.

In the end, there’s a hero in all of us. You’re not defined by your failures. Trying to be the hero doesn’t make it so. Forging your own legends is more selfish than it is heroic. Sometimes just doing the right thing is enough to make a difference. All of these, I’d be fine with my children (lol if I had any) learning. I think there’s a lot more here that is important to learn than in the OT, if anything.

NFB, I didn’t mean to ignore you. I can see your point of view as possibly being between mine and Adywan’s. Maybe for you the movie doesn’t seem cynical, but I can’t imagine a Star Wars world where Luke Skywalker is hiding from his friends and letting them die and saying the Jedi need to die out. That is the opposite of everything he did and believed in during the OT.

Even Mark Hamill said he disagreed with everything he was asked to do in this movie.

The movie doesn’t end on that note, though. It’s obviously not about hiding and letting your friends die. To say that that is what is being taught is disingenuous I think. If anything, it’d be easier to say that that was the lesson of Empire Strikes Back before Return of the Jedi came out.

I mean, really.

darthrush said:

NFBisms said:

Disney Ruined Star Wars said:

This was a quote I read from someone and I agree with it very much:

Sad that in the end people just throw their hands up and say "doesn’t work for you, works for me, oh well."
Good storytelling transcends subjective solipsism. The fact of the matter is that Luke’s actions in this film were not built up to in the previous films at all, and his character is a very severe departure from what he was. He also represents a bold new moral view of this universe, from the makers of this film, which is almost too sad to describe.
Art is an extension of worldview. It taps into what matters most to us. Lucas showed what matters most to him. And what was done to that worldview, and what worldview has replaced it, is chilly in the extreme. I certainly won’t be anxious to show this film to my children, when I have them. 1-6, sure. I do not agree with the values of this film, or the worldview it presents though. It seems cynical, poisonous and nihilistic, especially in light of what came before.
You may enjoy that if you like but there is no denying the shift that occurs. Anyone who denies that shift is very likely blind to the themes of these films.

I don’t want to be that guy, but I’m kind of tired of people overlooking my posts, and I do want to discuss this.

http://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/1146676

I don’t believe TLJ is that cynical, and I liked it, and it makes me disappointed that there are seemingly only a few camps that we can exist in in terms of opinion.

I don’t think that the moral values of it are even really that different or worse from or than the OT when you think about it. I think everyone saying that the Jedi are actually evil or bad for the Galaxy because of their dogma are way off base with what the movie was trying to say.

I definitely agree with ya there. The Last Jedi’s messages and themes are pretty optimistic in my eyes.

Yeah. To say that TLJ’s theme is “let the past die” is wrong. Kylo Ren - the villain - said that. And his entire thing, of burning down all the old institutions and starting over, is just an extension of the theme that trying so hard to be the hero - to forge your own legends - is more selfish than it is anything else. Poe trying to do the same thing for the Resistance got how many people killed?

I know people crap on the Canto Bight parts and maybe rightfully so on a pacing and tonal front, but Finn and Rose were the only ones of the Resistance in the movie that accomplished anything that mattered beyond the immediate happenings in the end, and not because they were trying to pull off some heroic scheme against all odds. Just by doing what they felt was right in the moment, they inspired a new generation of force-sensitives, and that’s the hopeful note that we end on.

DrDre said:

NFBisms said:

I don’t agree with the reading that Obi-Wan and Yoda were just using Luke, but I don’t think TLJ ruins that which came before it. I know it’s kind of a paradox, but TLJ is both dependent on the the OT, while also trying to be its own thing. It takes the franchise in a different direction for sure, and you kind of have to separate it from the thematic heart of the originals.

It’s not an exact comparison, but think Logan relative to the original X-Men trilogy.

…

That being said, TLJ isn’t really as gray or cynical as people are making it out to be. I don’t think it was saying the Jedi are evil.

I think it’s still a very traditional good vs evil story, it just places less faith in ideals alone and gives less credit to principles making a hero. It embraces the human condition and makes that which is in all of us - our ability to fail and move on - good enough to be heroes. In some ways, that’s more optimistic than saying we have to work super hard just to be good people. It’s not saying that the Jedi were super bad just because they were flawed, just that they don’t have a patent on being able to save the galaxy.

Sometimes trying too hard to be the hero can backfire, like with Poe, Finn, and Rose - and in the case of Luke, who held himself to such high expectations of heroism that he exiled himself after failure (which, thinking the galaxy is better off without you is still kind of an extension of some bullshit hero complex).

You don’t have to try to be the hero - as long as you do good, there’s one in there - and your failures, flaws, and screw ups won’t take that away as long as you get back up.

EDIT: honestly I wish people wouldn’t ignore my posts

Yes, but here’s the thing. If you want to separate it from the thematic heart of the originals, than do your own thing. Create your own story with your own characters, perhaps set in the same universe. Don’t take Lucas’ story and Lucas’ characters and alter that to suit your own agenda. It’s not just that TLJ creates its own reality, it tries to alter our perspective on the earlier films, and tells us to view them through the prism of Rian’s vision. Even worse it attempts to do this by taking the same challenges, and then provide a different solution, in the process invalidating the earlier solution. It doesn’t even say, different problems require different solutions. It takes the same problem of Empire versus rebels, and a Jedi pupil turned to the dark side, and tells us the solution to that problem is not what the OT presented us, it needs to be something else. In doing so it betrays the spirit of the originals in my view.

I don’t even think it’s the same situation/plot. Maybe you disagree with the decision to have Luke cut himself off from the galaxy in the first place, but that alone is enough to be a different story with different themes. Maybe TFA set up a trajectory like the one you describe, but even Ben’s First Order is now motivated by burning down all the old institutions to begin a new world order, as opposed to the OT Empire just wishing to maintain its hold on the galaxy. It looks the same on a superficial level, I guess, but I do think it is a “different problem that the old solution can’t fix.”

Obi-Wan and Yoda were hiding to watch over Luke until he was ready to begin his Jedi training. On the other hand, Old Luke at the start of TLJ has no intention of doing anything for the galaxy anymore. He doesn’t even know Han is dead or even what is happening in the galaxy. That it even needed his help.

I guess I just don’t think new additions to the franchise can ruin what came before it for me. The prequels didn’t ruin the original trilogy to me. And while I am welcoming of the ST’s new direction, I don’t even think it takes away from the OT. If anything, it’s just an expansion of it. Just another way to look at it. Doesn’t make what those movies have to say any less important or valid.

DrDre said:

Yeah, but the part of the wing the cruiser sliced off like butter was about 20,000 meters wide. The FO Star Destroyers are also quite a bit bigger than the Imperial Star Destroyer. Either way the DS would have sustained major damage, to the point where it would no longer be oeprational, especially if the cruisers had pointed their attack at the DS disc.

In the EU there is a text about hyperspace collisions.

“Hyperspace collisions, whether they be intentional or by accident, could devastate or even destroy a planet. Considering the fact that the output of the reactors of many Capital ships rivaled or eclipsed that of a star, and that the energies needed to make hyperspace travel possible were vast, one could unleash a great deal of destructive power on a target. Even if a planet had its planetary shielding up at the time of a hyperspace collision, it could still have the potential to kill millions on a world such as Coruscant just due to the fallout.[4] One of the more famous hyperspace accidents occurred during the Clone Wars, when the battlecruiser Quaestor collided with the Separatist planet Pammant, fracturing it to its core.”

DrDre said:

NFBisms said:
I don’t even think it’s the same situation/plot. Maybe you disagree with the decision to have Luke cut himself off from the galaxy in the first place, but that alone is enough to be a different story with different themes. Maybe TFA set up a trajectory like the one you describe, but even Ben’s First Order is now motivated by burning down all the old institutions to begin a new world order, as opposed to the OT Empire just wishing to maintain its hold on the galaxy. It looks the same on a superficial level, I guess, but I do think it is a “different problem that the old solution can’t fix.”

I don’t really see where the FO is that different from the Empire presented in TESB after the destruction of the Death Star. They’re a military power controlling most of the galaxy. I’ve heard very little about a new world order, and how that system is supposed to be so different from the previous dictatorship that ruled the galaxy.

That’s fair, of what we’ve had so far, it has mirrored the Empire. I just think that “evil empire vs rebel group” is informed by different themes this time around, at least in TLJ where Ren has killed Snoke and the Resistance was more focused on survival rather than hitting back. I think it really all depends on where they take this in IX.

Obi-Wan and Yoda were hiding to watch over Luke until he was ready to begin his Jedi training. On the other hand, Old Luke at the start of TLJ has no intention of doing anything for the galaxy anymore. He doesn’t even know Han is dead or even what is happening in the galaxy. That it even needed his help.

I think the entire scenario surrounding Luke’s abandonment of his ideals and values are in part why this trilogy betrays the spirit of the earlier films. In order for the new hero to replace the old one, the old one has to take himself out of commission contrary to everything that character represented for four decades, a cheat of sorts. It sacrifices the old solution to the problem of a galaxy wide dictatorship, namely Luke and the New Republic for the new solution represented by Rey, and whatever might become of those few dozen rebels flying off in the Millenium Falcon at the end of TLJ.

I do think TLJ was more about Luke than it was about Rey. While he literally sacrifices himself at the end for the future of the good guys and the galaxy, I don’t think they gave anything up they could have explored with Luke to give Rey more to do, when maybe they should have.

I guess I just don’t think new additions to the franchise can ruin what came before it for me. The prequels didn’t ruin the original trilogy to me. And while I am welcoming of the ST’s new direction, I don’t even think it takes away from the OT. If anything, it’s just an expansion of it. Just another way to look at it. Doesn’t make what those movies have to say any less important.

I don’t know. If a creator writes a story with certain themes and messages, and then another creator claims to expand on, and eventually finish that story (it’s all supposed to be one nine part saga, no?), but actively undermines those themes and messages (IMO), I think that presents a problem. I think a creator should be true to the material. If RJ wanted to take things in a completely different direction, I think he should have used his own vehicle, the new trilogy, to do it, and even then not all bets are off. If he really wants to do his own thing, he should create his own universe.

Luke still represents the same thing to me that he has since I was a kid. The young farmboy from nothing who became a Jedi Knight. You can call it regression, but I think it plays to the strength of TLJ’s themes to remind us of the simple humanity he came from, and not just as the infallible legend he became to the galaxy (and us, meta-narratively). After all, his human compassion and love for his father is what won for the galaxy at the end of the day in ROTJ. His experiences training as a Jedi opened his mind and matured him, but his humanity made him the hero.

If one of TLJ’s main themes is about there being a hero in all of us despite our shortcomings - and that trying to recreate/forge our own legends isn’t that heroic - I think that’s pretty true to the spirit of the OT, more than the prequels retroactively making Luke and Leia out to be the heirs of some prophesied chosen one Force-Jesus. It’s not anything that the OT tried to say explicitly, but it works with what we had in it. The force isn’t what made Luke special.

So now, Luke thinks he’s failed not just Ben Solo, not just the galaxy, but himself. He expected better, because he was a legend, the galaxy’s hero. But in the end, it isn’t about how powerful, or wise, or infallible, he was/is that made him a hero. We can agree to disagree that Old Luke as a character is one that still needed to learn any lessons at this point, but I don’t think him learning that his failures don’t define him or his capability for good, is something that goes against the OT. It’s not really something they explore about Luke within that trilogy one way or another. What happens when he fails himself and his own ideals? Sure, ROTJ sets up that if he gives into anger and hate he will suffer his father’s fate, but that’s binary. TLJ introduces the gray area of shame and regret, but it’s rooted in that same question. And the answer is still that Luke is a good person in spite of it all.

…

So while I think RJ did take the series in a new direction thematically, I don’t think he tried to undermine the old movies and what they had to say. In fact, TLJ only works if we understand the lessons we took from those.

Ocrop27 said:

NFBisms said:

Disney Ruined Star Wars said:

This was a quote I read from someone and I agree with it very much:

Sad that in the end people just throw their hands up and say "doesn’t work for you, works for me, oh well."
Good storytelling transcends subjective solipsism. The fact of the matter is that Luke’s actions in this film were not built up to in the previous films at all, and his character is a very severe departure from what he was. He also represents a bold new moral view of this universe, from the makers of this film, which is almost too sad to describe.
Art is an extension of worldview. It taps into what matters most to us. Lucas showed what matters most to him. And what was done to that worldview, and what worldview has replaced it, is chilly in the extreme. I certainly won’t be anxious to show this film to my children, when I have them. 1-6, sure. I do not agree with the values of this film, or the worldview it presents though. It seems cynical, poisonous and nihilistic, especially in light of what came before.
You may enjoy that if you like but there is no denying the shift that occurs. Anyone who denies that shift is very likely blind to the themes of these films.

I don’t want to be that guy, but I’m kind of tired of people overlooking my posts, and I do want to discuss this.

http://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/1146676

I don’t believe TLJ is that cynical, and I liked it, and it makes me disappointed that there are seemingly only a few camps that we can exist in in terms of opinion.

I don’t think that the moral values of it are even really that different or worse from or than the OT when you think about it. I think everyone saying that the Jedi are actually evil or bad for the Galaxy because of their dogma are way off base with what the movie was trying to say.

In the end, there’s a hero in all of us. You’re not defined by your failures. Trying to be the hero doesn’t make it so. Forging your own legends is more selfish than it is heroic. Sometimes just doing the right thing is enough to make a difference. All of these, I’d be fine with my children (lol if I had any) learning. I think there’s a lot here that is more important to learn than what the OT can teach, if anything.

People say that he would never try to kill ben, and i agree, but the thing is that he actualy did’t. For a second he ignites he’s light saber and think about not letting a second vader exist, but then realised what he was doing. That doesn’t make him fail as a jedi, since we already seen this same scenario in ROTJ where luke choses to not strike his father. What i am saying is that Luke was never a one dimesional character and so isn’t old Luke. He is not perfect, he is no god or messiah, but in the end he goes to help his frieds, like he always did, only more grown and sure of what he is doing.

He did fail, though. That is failure. Especially after all we know about him and his ideals. He exiles himself because he thinks the galaxy is better off without him, that he will only let them down, and that him and the Jedi Order would only do more damage. But that’s the crux of his arc in the movie, learning that that failure doesn’t define him or his capability to do good, and that his exile in the end wasn’t some noble act of protection for the galaxy.

^ In hindsight, I think that supposed to be a cheeky Hardware Wars reference. LOL

DrDre said:

NFBisms said:

Ocrop27 said:

NFBisms said:

Disney Ruined Star Wars said:

This was a quote I read from someone and I agree with it very much:

Sad that in the end people just throw their hands up and say "doesn’t work for you, works for me, oh well."
Good storytelling transcends subjective solipsism. The fact of the matter is that Luke’s actions in this film were not built up to in the previous films at all, and his character is a very severe departure from what he was. He also represents a bold new moral view of this universe, from the makers of this film, which is almost too sad to describe.
Art is an extension of worldview. It taps into what matters most to us. Lucas showed what matters most to him. And what was done to that worldview, and what worldview has replaced it, is chilly in the extreme. I certainly won’t be anxious to show this film to my children, when I have them. 1-6, sure. I do not agree with the values of this film, or the worldview it presents though. It seems cynical, poisonous and nihilistic, especially in light of what came before.
You may enjoy that if you like but there is no denying the shift that occurs. Anyone who denies that shift is very likely blind to the themes of these films.

I don’t want to be that guy, but I’m kind of tired of people overlooking my posts, and I do want to discuss this.

http://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/1146676

I don’t believe TLJ is that cynical, and I liked it, and it makes me disappointed that there are seemingly only a few camps that we can exist in in terms of opinion.

I don’t think that the moral values of it are even really that different or worse from or than the OT when you think about it. I think everyone saying that the Jedi are actually evil or bad for the Galaxy because of their dogma are way off base with what the movie was trying to say.

In the end, there’s a hero in all of us. You’re not defined by your failures. Trying to be the hero doesn’t make it so. Forging your own legends is more selfish than it is heroic. Sometimes just doing the right thing is enough to make a difference. All of these, I’d be fine with my children (lol if I had any) learning. I think there’s a lot here that is more important to learn than what the OT can teach, if anything.

People say that he would never try to kill ben, and i agree, but the thing is that he actualy did’t. For a second he ignites he’s light saber and think about not letting a second vader exist, but then realised what he was doing. That doesn’t make him fail as a jedi, since we already seen this same scenario in ROTJ where luke choses to not strike his father. What i am saying is that Luke was never a one dimesional character and so isn’t old Luke. He is not perfect, he is no god or messiah, but in the end he goes to help his frieds, like he always did, only more grown and sure of what he is doing.

He did fail, though. That is failure. Especially after all we know about him and his ideals. He exiles himself because he thinks the galaxy is better off without him, that he will only let them down, and that him and the Jedi Order would only do more damage. But that’s the crux of his arc in the movie, learning that that failure doesn’t define him or his capability to do good, and that his exile in the end wasn’t some noble act of protection for the galaxy.

Yeah, but that’s what I don’t buy. How is the galaxy better off without him? What could be worse than the Empire he helped bring down? What could be worse than allowing his nephew and his new master to restore that tyranny? How can that be protecting the galaxy? It just doesn’t make any sense.

I mean, as much as I disagree with the “Jedi are bad” crowd, there were some flaws in the Jedi’s dogmatic ways, and I suppose Luke was basing it off of that. Giving people the ability to tap into that much power is dangerous in and of itself, and Luke didn’t want to spread the teachings that turned Vader and Kylo Ren. Maybe “noble act of protection” was a poor choice of words, but his hiding himself and trying to end the Jedi for good is rooted in some hero complex where he believed the galaxy was better off without a group of people having that power. The force belongs to no one. Violence begets violence. That whole thing.

I don’t think he thought it was better than the Empire, because as far as I can remember, (maybe I’m just basing this off of Hal’s TFA Restructured fan edit and additional materials) The First Order and Snoke weren’t even threats that were taken seriously by anyone but Leia’s Resistance, until the events of TFA, where the Republic came crumbling down pretty quickly. That’s a strike against TFA for not expanding upon that, for sure.

When he’s all caught up on what’s going on, it’s not like he sneaks onto the Falcon and eventually trains Rey for no reason. He obviously still cared about his old friend and what he’s responsible for. He just doesn’t think he can help in any way himself, and no one on Ahch-To really knows how much shit the Resistance is in at the same time. Last time Rey checked, things weren’t really that urgent at the Resistance base. After all, they just had a major win, and why would she assume that Poe would get everyone killed?