The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 47

dahmage said:

DrDre said:

The throne room sequence is an example of this. It uses words allready used by the OT, but changes the order to the point, that it’s like a joke, where we get the punchline without a proper setup.

I don’t follow. are you complaining about the fight, or the interrogation of Rey and death of snoke, or what?

I’m saying the scene is undercut by the lack of development of the Snoke character, and the way the character is presented as all knowing, except when he needs to die, at which point he suddenly becomes a retard. Had the character of Snoke been properly set up, the twist would have been far more effective.

Double post.

Collipso said:

dahmage said:

DrDre said:

The throne room sequence is an example of this. It uses words allready used by the OT, but changes the order to the point, that it’s like a joke, where we get the punchline without a proper setup.

I don’t follow. are you complaining about the fight, or the interrogation of Rey and death of snoke, or what?

There’s no way you didn’t get a complete déjà vu when Rey and Kylo were in the elevator reciting the same lines Luke and Vader did some 34 years ago.

Edit: I love how you took a carbon copied scene and just pointed out how slightly different it was, and claimed that it was extremely original. “Oh but Snoke interrogated Rey, the Emperor never did that to Luke” oh boy you’re right how could I be so stupid Rian Johnson must be a creative genius!!

I don’t think i am gonna respond to this

DrDre said:

at which point he suddenly becomes a retard.

Oh fuck off already.

Before I just disagreed with your opinion on a film. Now I think you’re an asshole too.

Ryan said:

Wexter said:

TV’s Frink said:

Wexter said:

dahmage said:

Wexter said:

dahmage said:

Wexter said:

dahmage said:

Wexter said:

TV’s Frink said:

chyron8472 said:

pleasehello said:

Because everyone on this forum loves RedLetterMedia so much:

Not sure if serious.

My reaction to captainsolo’s review.

Actually, it was very well put.

amazing, every single word you just said is wrong

Cute, but nah.

chyron8472 said:
TLJ dared to be new and unexpected and people hated it.

I reject this notion that TLJ “dared to be new”. It’s pretty frustrating seeing that posted everywhere. It’s doing the same damn thing all over again, just with different characters and in a slightly different order.

and i reject the notion that these movies are the same but just sligtly tweaked. ::shrug::

Is it just a case of there being people who want new films, and people who don’t, or is there really more to it? I am not convinced that it is anything more than the first option (some people just don’t want new films, despite what they say).

Not sure if I understand. Are you saying I (and the minority who feels the same way) just don’t want new Star Wars films? If so, what are you basing this on?

DrDre said:

dahmage said:

Wexter said:

dahmage said:

Wexter said:

TV’s Frink said:

chyron8472 said:

pleasehello said:

Because everyone on this forum loves RedLetterMedia so much:

Not sure if serious.

My reaction to captainsolo’s review.

Actually, it was very well put.

amazing, every single word you just said is wrong

Cute, but nah.

chyron8472 said:
TLJ dared to be new and unexpected and people hated it.

I reject this notion that TLJ “dared to be new”. It’s pretty frustrating seeing that posted everywhere. It’s doing the same damn thing all over again, just with different characters and in a slightly different order.

and i reject the notion that these movies are the same but just sligtly tweaked. ::shrug::

Is it just a case of there being people who want new films, and people who don’t, or is there really more to it? I am not convinced that it is anything more than the first option (some people just don’t want new films, despite what they say).

Well, I think it’s actually quite a challenge to find a story beat, that isn’t in some way derived from the OT. It usually either does more or less the same, or the opposite. If it was really a new story, it wouldn’t depend completely on OT events.

Yeah, i am saying it seems like people don’t want new star wars films, based on the fact that i completely fail to understand what people want. You can tell me that it is too derivative, or to similar, or didn’t do this or that. but i really have never understood what you or those other people would actually want to see.

So of course, i know that those who say these things often make claims about what they want. But despite this, i really don’t believe that they actually know what they want. Sure, that is me being a bit judgmental, but that is the truth about how it strikes me.

Once again, I want new Star Wars films. I quite liked TFA and R1 despite their flaws. I am just baffled that where most people - even some of its harshest critics - see originality in TLJ, I see just a slight variation.

So what again didn’t you like about TLJ, other than its supposed lack of new ideas? Because I thought TFA had no new ideas either?

The (not so) slight rehash of TFA was an issue. But back then I truly believed it served a specific purpose. To “begin to make things right”. Reintroduce the familiar and introduce the new, so that from there the story can go where it has never gone before. And then the rehash kept going, while most people applauded for something we’ve never seen before in Star Wars.

TFA and TLJ wouldn’t have been a rehash if there was no “New Order” type thing in these new movies. i.e. no Death Star, no Storm Troopers, No Star Destroyers, etc. and then you don’t get any rehash.

I wish I could go to an alternate universe and watch their ST that didn’t have a “New Order” type thing in it.

I’d say you could even have an imperial remnant being the villain group and still tell a completely original story. However, I feel like that was never an option with Disney. They just hired people to do something very similar to the OT.

(Once again, this is just a feeling I get from it all. I personally don’t know anybody who attends Disney staff meetings.)

chyron8472 said:

Collipso said:

I love how you took a carbon copied scene and just pointed out how slightly different it was, and claimed that it was extremely original. “Oh but Snoke interrogated Rey, the Emperor never did that to Luke” oh boy you’re right how could I be so stupid Rian Johnson must be a creative genius!!

Strawman argument. This was not remotely argued. No one said TLJ was extremely original, and no one is worshipfully singing Rian Johnson’s praises.

Actually the originality of the scene was questioned and one of the defending arguments (from what I understood) was that Rey was interrogated by Snoke, while this never happened in the original version of the scene, therefore making the TLJ scene original.
The second part I was simply trolling and being sarcastic, I am sorry if I came off as a dick.
But it wasn’t an example of the strawman fallacy.

dahmage said:

Collipso said:

dahmage said:

DrDre said:

The throne room sequence is an example of this. It uses words allready used by the OT, but changes the order to the point, that it’s like a joke, where we get the punchline without a proper setup.

I don’t follow. are you complaining about the fight, or the interrogation of Rey and death of snoke, or what?

There’s no way you didn’t get a complete déjà vu when Rey and Kylo were in the elevator reciting the same lines Luke and Vader did some 34 years ago.

Edit: I love how you took a carbon copied scene and just pointed out how slightly different it was, and claimed that it was extremely original. “Oh but Snoke interrogated Rey, the Emperor never did that to Luke” oh boy you’re right how could I be so stupid Rian Johnson must be a creative genius!!

I don’t think i am gonna respond to this

Why? Apparently I misunderstood what you were trying to say with your previous post, so could you please enlighten me?

NFBisms said:

Wexter said:

NFBisms said:

Wexter said:

You could tell the story of the events after ROTJ and make it stand on its own. You could even improve upon the originals (a difficult task, but not an impossible one). This movie did introduce some new and potentially interesting themes: out with the old and in with the new, the Force is out there for everybody and not just the gifted, animal cruelty is bad. But goddammit make up your own story to convey those themes.

I think this is the point though. It’s one of the main themes of the movie, expectation of legend vs our own humanity. The expectation that Luke is the infallible hero and legend who will step up to fight the First Order, Poe’s assumption that being simply brave and courageous alone is heroic, the expectation that Ben can still turn back to the light, that Finn and Rose’s adventure will make a difference on good intentions alone, or that Rey is a somebody…

I think parroting sequences to subvert them is how Johnson is presenting that theme that the legends and stories we (or the characters in this movie) try to live up to aren’t plausible. TLJ more than other SW movies tries to speak to our humanity and fallibility. Ben won’t turn back to the light side, Poe isn’t really a hero, Rey is a nobody, and Luke at his core is just a man. It turns around to paint the OT as an idealistic fairy tale, and that’s what’s so different about it thematically.

I think that theme becomes muddled if you don’t have the familiar story beats set up to subvert later. Otherwise you rely on even more the obvious telegraphing or expositing of the theme like some lesson at the end of a school special. Rose discovering her “Resistance hero” attempting to escape at the beginning would be an example.

That is a valid point, but I would argue that by doing that, you’re not really continuing the story. By doing that you are making a meta commentary on its earlier parts.

To be fair, that’s exactly what I said in one of my earlier posts. That’s what makes TLJ different for me.

http://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/1145320

That is a very good post, don’t know how I missed that.

TV’s Frink said:

Ryan said:

DominicCobb said:

pleasehello said:

DominicCobb said:

pleasehello said:

DominicCobb said:

Mithrandir said:

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/12/star-wars-last-jedi-laura-dern-admiral-holdo-listen-to-women?intcid=inline_amp

Looks like there actually was an agenda in all this ST.

Sadly fairy tales all root in the old world.

Please fire Kennedy

Please fire yourself (from being a poster in this thread).

Someone’s getting a little defensive.

I reckon he’s allowed to be concerned about modern day politics infiltrating Star Wars.

Right, how dare they give women equal footing.

Not really the point. Women have always been the smart ones in command in Star Wars.

Point is, telling someone to go away because you disagree with them is not a valid argument.

There are exactly 4 women with speaking roles in the OT. Three of them have less than a minute of screen time.

He said to fire Kennedy because she has an agenda. I don’t see why I should have to make a valid argument when he isn’t either. Calling for her to be fired is just as inflaming, if not more so.

Star Wars is in another galaxy far far away.

So the “humans” are aliens who just look like humans. This isn’t something happening on Earth.

So this other galaxy has to be male-dominated to the point of ridiculousness?

Also, most of the OT is pretty much in a warzone. If you watch WWII type movies, there aren’t a lot of women in the warzone, etc.

Yeah, there’s a reason for that, and it’s not because women can’t fight.

No, just saying that Star Wars takes place in another galaxy with 100% aliens.

Also, watching the OT, don’t really see in those movies where all these “women” humanoids should have all shown up in? Death Star, Dagoba, Endor?

Nandi said:

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

at which point he suddenly becomes a retard.

Oh fuck off already.

Before I just disagreed with your opinion on a film. Now I think you’re an asshole too.

How do you keep avoiding moderator warnings with all fights you start

Go ask them, but maybe it’s partly because I don’t use “retard” as an insult?

Ryan said:

TV’s Frink said:

Ryan said:

DominicCobb said:

pleasehello said:

DominicCobb said:

pleasehello said:

DominicCobb said:

Mithrandir said:

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/12/star-wars-last-jedi-laura-dern-admiral-holdo-listen-to-women?intcid=inline_amp

Looks like there actually was an agenda in all this ST.

Sadly fairy tales all root in the old world.

Please fire Kennedy

Please fire yourself (from being a poster in this thread).

Someone’s getting a little defensive.

I reckon he’s allowed to be concerned about modern day politics infiltrating Star Wars.

Right, how dare they give women equal footing.

Not really the point. Women have always been the smart ones in command in Star Wars.

Point is, telling someone to go away because you disagree with them is not a valid argument.

There are exactly 4 women with speaking roles in the OT. Three of them have less than a minute of screen time.

He said to fire Kennedy because she has an agenda. I don’t see why I should have to make a valid argument when he isn’t either. Calling for her to be fired is just as inflaming, if not more so.

Star Wars is in another galaxy far far away.

So the “humans” are aliens who just look like humans. This isn’t something happening on Earth.

So this other galaxy has to be male-dominated to the point of ridiculousness?

Also, most of the OT is pretty much in a warzone. If you watch WWII type movies, there aren’t a lot of women in the warzone, etc.

Yeah, there’s a reason for that, and it’s not because women can’t fight.

No, just saying that Star Wars takes place in another galaxy with 100% aliens.

And so what?

Also, watching the OT, don’t really see in those movies where all these “women” humanoids should have all shown up in? Death Star, Dagoba, Endor?

Maybe because the movies were made in the late 70’s or early 80’s?

Are you seriously trying to argue that a male-dominated galaxy was supposed to be part of the story?

Wexter said:

Ryan said:

Wexter said:

TV’s Frink said:

Wexter said:

dahmage said:

Wexter said:

dahmage said:

Wexter said:

dahmage said:

Wexter said:

TV’s Frink said:

chyron8472 said:

pleasehello said:

Because everyone on this forum loves RedLetterMedia so much:

Not sure if serious.

My reaction to captainsolo’s review.

Actually, it was very well put.

amazing, every single word you just said is wrong

Cute, but nah.

chyron8472 said:
TLJ dared to be new and unexpected and people hated it.

I reject this notion that TLJ “dared to be new”. It’s pretty frustrating seeing that posted everywhere. It’s doing the same damn thing all over again, just with different characters and in a slightly different order.

and i reject the notion that these movies are the same but just sligtly tweaked. ::shrug::

Is it just a case of there being people who want new films, and people who don’t, or is there really more to it? I am not convinced that it is anything more than the first option (some people just don’t want new films, despite what they say).

Not sure if I understand. Are you saying I (and the minority who feels the same way) just don’t want new Star Wars films? If so, what are you basing this on?

DrDre said:

dahmage said:

Wexter said:

dahmage said:

Wexter said:

TV’s Frink said:

chyron8472 said:

pleasehello said:

Because everyone on this forum loves RedLetterMedia so much:

Not sure if serious.

My reaction to captainsolo’s review.

Actually, it was very well put.

amazing, every single word you just said is wrong

Cute, but nah.

chyron8472 said:
TLJ dared to be new and unexpected and people hated it.

I reject this notion that TLJ “dared to be new”. It’s pretty frustrating seeing that posted everywhere. It’s doing the same damn thing all over again, just with different characters and in a slightly different order.

and i reject the notion that these movies are the same but just sligtly tweaked. ::shrug::

Is it just a case of there being people who want new films, and people who don’t, or is there really more to it? I am not convinced that it is anything more than the first option (some people just don’t want new films, despite what they say).

Well, I think it’s actually quite a challenge to find a story beat, that isn’t in some way derived from the OT. It usually either does more or less the same, or the opposite. If it was really a new story, it wouldn’t depend completely on OT events.

Yeah, i am saying it seems like people don’t want new star wars films, based on the fact that i completely fail to understand what people want. You can tell me that it is too derivative, or to similar, or didn’t do this or that. but i really have never understood what you or those other people would actually want to see.

So of course, i know that those who say these things often make claims about what they want. But despite this, i really don’t believe that they actually know what they want. Sure, that is me being a bit judgmental, but that is the truth about how it strikes me.

Once again, I want new Star Wars films. I quite liked TFA and R1 despite their flaws. I am just baffled that where most people - even some of its harshest critics - see originality in TLJ, I see just a slight variation.

So what again didn’t you like about TLJ, other than its supposed lack of new ideas? Because I thought TFA had no new ideas either?

The (not so) slight rehash of TFA was an issue. But back then I truly believed it served a specific purpose. To “begin to make things right”. Reintroduce the familiar and introduce the new, so that from there the story can go where it has never gone before. And then the rehash kept going, while most people applauded for something we’ve never seen before in Star Wars.

TFA and TLJ wouldn’t have been a rehash if there was no “New Order” type thing in these new movies. i.e. no Death Star, no Storm Troopers, No Star Destroyers, etc. and then you don’t get any rehash.

I wish I could go to an alternate universe and watch their ST that didn’t have a “New Order” type thing in it.

I’d say you could even have an imperial remnant being the villain group and still tell a completely original story. However, I feel like that was never an option with Disney. They just hired people to do something very similar to the OT.

(Once again, this is just a feeling I get from it all. I personally don’t know anybody who attends Disney staff meetings.)

I can say this. The prequels feel like their own thing. Even with Clone Troopers and Palpatine. Those movies I never felt like Lucas was rehashing the OT.

TV’s Frink said:

Nandi said:

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

at which point he suddenly becomes a retard.

Oh fuck off already.

Before I just disagreed with your opinion on a film. Now I think you’re an asshole too.

How do you keep avoiding moderator warnings with all fights you start

Go ask them, but maybe it’s partly because I don’t use “retard” as an insult?

Wasn’t he talking about Snoke??

chyron8472 said:

TV’s Frink said:

Nandi said:

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

at which point he suddenly becomes a retard.

Oh fuck off already.

Before I just disagreed with your opinion on a film. Now I think you’re an asshole too.

How do you keep avoiding moderator warnings with all fights you start

Go ask them, but maybe it’s partly because I don’t use “retard” as an insult?

I have to admit, that’s a pretty weak defense.

“Retard” as an insult is offensive, but “asshole” is not. Telling people to “fuck off” is not, as being belligerent is also not.
Umm… okay.

Your objection is noted.

Using “retard” as an insult makes you an asshole. Sorry.

Collipso said:

TV’s Frink said:

Nandi said:

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

at which point he suddenly becomes a retard.

Oh fuck off already.

Before I just disagreed with your opinion on a film. Now I think you’re an asshole too.

How do you keep avoiding moderator warnings with all fights you start

Go ask them, but maybe it’s partly because I don’t use “retard” as an insult?

Wasn’t he talking about Snoke??

That makes it ok?

Would it be ok to use the n-word if he used it for Finn instead of for someone posting in this thread?

Ryan said:

Wexter said:

Ryan said:

Wexter said:

TV’s Frink said:

Wexter said:

dahmage said:

Wexter said:

dahmage said:

Wexter said:

dahmage said:

Wexter said:

TV’s Frink said:

chyron8472 said:

pleasehello said:

Because everyone on this forum loves RedLetterMedia so much:

Not sure if serious.

My reaction to captainsolo’s review.

Actually, it was very well put.

amazing, every single word you just said is wrong

Cute, but nah.

chyron8472 said:
TLJ dared to be new and unexpected and people hated it.

I reject this notion that TLJ “dared to be new”. It’s pretty frustrating seeing that posted everywhere. It’s doing the same damn thing all over again, just with different characters and in a slightly different order.

and i reject the notion that these movies are the same but just sligtly tweaked. ::shrug::

Is it just a case of there being people who want new films, and people who don’t, or is there really more to it? I am not convinced that it is anything more than the first option (some people just don’t want new films, despite what they say).

Not sure if I understand. Are you saying I (and the minority who feels the same way) just don’t want new Star Wars films? If so, what are you basing this on?

DrDre said:

dahmage said:

Wexter said:

dahmage said:

Wexter said:

TV’s Frink said:

chyron8472 said:

pleasehello said:

Because everyone on this forum loves RedLetterMedia so much:

Not sure if serious.

My reaction to captainsolo’s review.

Actually, it was very well put.

amazing, every single word you just said is wrong

Cute, but nah.

chyron8472 said:
TLJ dared to be new and unexpected and people hated it.

I reject this notion that TLJ “dared to be new”. It’s pretty frustrating seeing that posted everywhere. It’s doing the same damn thing all over again, just with different characters and in a slightly different order.

and i reject the notion that these movies are the same but just sligtly tweaked. ::shrug::

Is it just a case of there being people who want new films, and people who don’t, or is there really more to it? I am not convinced that it is anything more than the first option (some people just don’t want new films, despite what they say).

Well, I think it’s actually quite a challenge to find a story beat, that isn’t in some way derived from the OT. It usually either does more or less the same, or the opposite. If it was really a new story, it wouldn’t depend completely on OT events.

Yeah, i am saying it seems like people don’t want new star wars films, based on the fact that i completely fail to understand what people want. You can tell me that it is too derivative, or to similar, or didn’t do this or that. but i really have never understood what you or those other people would actually want to see.

So of course, i know that those who say these things often make claims about what they want. But despite this, i really don’t believe that they actually know what they want. Sure, that is me being a bit judgmental, but that is the truth about how it strikes me.

Once again, I want new Star Wars films. I quite liked TFA and R1 despite their flaws. I am just baffled that where most people - even some of its harshest critics - see originality in TLJ, I see just a slight variation.

So what again didn’t you like about TLJ, other than its supposed lack of new ideas? Because I thought TFA had no new ideas either?

The (not so) slight rehash of TFA was an issue. But back then I truly believed it served a specific purpose. To “begin to make things right”. Reintroduce the familiar and introduce the new, so that from there the story can go where it has never gone before. And then the rehash kept going, while most people applauded for something we’ve never seen before in Star Wars.

TFA and TLJ wouldn’t have been a rehash if there was no “New Order” type thing in these new movies. i.e. no Death Star, no Storm Troopers, No Star Destroyers, etc. and then you don’t get any rehash.

I wish I could go to an alternate universe and watch their ST that didn’t have a “New Order” type thing in it.

I’d say you could even have an imperial remnant being the villain group and still tell a completely original story. However, I feel like that was never an option with Disney. They just hired people to do something very similar to the OT.

(Once again, this is just a feeling I get from it all. I personally don’t know anybody who attends Disney staff meetings.)

I can say this. The prequels feel like their own thing. Even with Clone Troopers and Palpatine. Those movies I never felt like Lucas was rehashing the OT.

As much as I hate the prequels, I agree. TPM relied heavily on the story of ANH and added some politics for padding, but there was an original idea behind both AOTC and ROTS. If only those basic ideas were handed to a competent screenwriter and made into films by a skilled director, those could have been worthy additions to the saga. As they stand now, they are beyond saving, but not for the lack of originality.

^Welcome back and goodbye.