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The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 37

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Hal 9000 said:

joefavs said:

Yoda absolutely knows that Rey has the texts, it’s the whole reason he’s so cavalier about blowing up the tree. His actual line is “yes, yes, wisdom they held, but that library contained nothing that the girl Rey does not already possess”. He’s letting Luke think he means that Rey doesn’t need the books, but he’s actually saying she literally possesses them.

That’s fine, if a little “technical” on Yoda’s part. The problem is that the scene plays out clearly implying one thing, then the end of the movie has a very quick shot (which I have yet to perceive with my eyes; I’m trusting you guys that it really happened) which seems to imply the precise opposite. This film is littered with things like this, and with the example of the Yoda scene, I am still very uncertain what to make of it.

EDIT: This film intentionally sets out to antagonize people like me. I don’t exactly like that as an elected goal, but I can attempt to perceive and accept it for what it is trying to do. The fact that it jerks me around constantly and makes me feel like a monkey is another category of complaint.

I’m right with ya Hal on the Yoda technicality. I will edit out the last shot of the books cause I think Yoda’s lesson to Luke is that some old books aren’t what you need to save the galaxy. It’s doing the right thing, saving your friends, and using your powers for defense of what is good in the universe. So when Yoda also brings back the line of “Pass on what you have learned”, I see this as Yoda telling Luke not to pass on just some sort of knowledge, but pass on what Yoda taught him about what it means to be a Jedi. Luke shows everyone that despite failing Kylo and his friends, he still came back to save his friends and use his powers for good. To inspire hope in others. Ultimately, that is what Yoda wanted Luke to “pass on”. I think Luke came back after Yoda talked to him because Yoda reminded him about the true meaning of what it means to be a Jedi. So when Yoda agrees it is time for the Jedi to end, I believe they are speaking about the old dogmatic order. But Luke learns what it means to be a true Jedi master by the end and declares that Rey will continue his legacy and inspire others.

This is the main theme and message conveyed with Luke and Rey for me and one of the reasons I both love the film and think it is really important to cut the books from the end.

Return of the Jedi: Remastered

Lord of the Rings: The Darth Rush Definitives

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Thanks for that. I agree… with you agreeing with me.

Can you shed some light on why that (alleged) shot of the books at the end is there? What’s it mean? It seems bizarre that me and you read it one way, and yet joefavs feels confident in saying “of course Yoda isn’t advocating burning books.”

Just perplexing.

I know I’ve made some very poor decisions recently.

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darthrush said:
So when Yoda agrees it is time for the Jedi to end, I believe they are speaking about the old dogmatic order. But Luke learns what it means to be a true Jedi master by the end and declares that Rey will continue his legacy and inspire others.

My initial impression was that Yoda wasn’t agreeing that the old dogmatic order should end, but that’s probably because I was still overcome with surprise to see Yoda on screen again. Can anyone post the full dialogue exchange between Yoda and Luke? I’m having trouble finding it.

The Rise of Failures

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Hal 9000 said:

dahmage said:

FWIW, that Yoda thing was one of my favorite things in the whole film once I figured it out. I didn’t think it was actually contradictory, just some classic “certain point of view” Jedi Master trolling that got Luke to snap out of his funk and focus on what was important in that moment. Of course Yoda doesn’t actually advocate burning books.

Doesn’t he? If you left the theater before the end of the movie, or have less than superhuman focus like I do, wouldn’t that be exactly what you’d conclude? That scene, to the best of my ability to read, wholeheartedly says it’s time for the old Jedi to end and Yoda vindicates Luke’s desire to burn the books after he hesitates.

What I’d like to know is: does what makes you read that scene differently come from later in the film, or can you support it from that scene (and what came before) alone?

And how does that relate to why Luke does what he does at the end? And honestly, does Luke know Rey has the texts and he is counting on this as he tells Ren he won’t be the last Jedi? Or would he be surprised to learn this and say, “Hey, Yoda destroyed those!”?

If a split second shot toward the end of the movie that I missed when seeing the film twice is supposed to carry such interpretive weight necessary to understand themes intimately connected to Luke’s character and story, that makes me a little irrationally angry. Maybe it’s too far removed from how Star Wars films have always done things, especially after TFA tried so hard to match that style.

You’re missing the nuances of it.

Luke has spent far too much time agonizing over the ways of the Jedi of the past, and ultimately agonizing over why the Jedi should end. Frankly, he gets a little melodramatic about it. Because he believes that the Jedi must end, he resolves himself to burn the tree. But he can’t help himself. He’s still to attached to the history of it all (both the good and the bad) and can’t get over it.

So Yoda basically tells him, well, get over it. There’s more to the Force and the Jedi than mere books. In that scene, that’s the point that matters. Luke is caught in a cloud and doesn’t have his mind on where he is. Burning the tree and giving him his final lesson sets him right.

However, even though it is important that Rey learn the Force in her own way, it is still nice that she’ll be able to read the texts and take what she needs from them (and some of their mistakes too, as that is a great teacher, as Yoda states). The fact that Rey saves the books and Yoda knows does not invalidate the lesson he teaches Luke in the earlier scene.

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Hal 9000 said:

Thanks for that. I agree… with you agreeing with me.

Can you shed some light on why that (alleged) shot of the books at the end is there? What’s it mean? It seems bizarre that me and you read it one way, and yet joefavs feels confident in saying “of course Yoda isn’t advocating burning books.”

Just perplexing.

I see the shot of the books as somewhat of a stupid fakeout on the audience. It doesn’t belong in the film and will be the first thing I cut when I get the blu ray.

The whole message is that the force is for everyone and it is much simpler than what the old order made it out to be. It isn’t dependent on a set of rules in some old texts, so Yoda should destroy the books as seen without some dumb fakeout at the end.

Return of the Jedi: Remastered

Lord of the Rings: The Darth Rush Definitives

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Just because she saves the books doesn’t mean she’ll be married to the dogmatic views expressed in them. It was Luke that seemed beholden to that narrow minded view of them, not Rey.

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DominicCobb said:

Just because she saves the books doesn’t mean she’ll be married to the dogmatic views expressed in them. It was Luke that seemed beholden to that narrow minded view of them, not Rey.

It’s not as much a complaint of Rey as a character but rather the fact that the shot of the books is not needed and unnecessarily clouds what was otherwise a simple and powerful message. There’s just quite bluntly no need for the shot of the books.

Return of the Jedi: Remastered

Lord of the Rings: The Darth Rush Definitives

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 (Edited)

RE: Rey keeping the books

Perhaps we can interpret it as Luke, a Force user, that has studied the ways the Force was taught and found its flaws but chose inaction; these books should be burned. Rey on the other hand is going to study the flaws of how the Force was taught but choose action and actually apply her wisdom, whether that means redeeming Kylo or craft a new Force Order, or both. Hence these books will have value because it offers a baseline of guidance, but not strict code for future generations.

The Rise of Failures

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So, Yoda is burning the books (or at least, apparently so) not because he’s agreeing or disagreeing with Luke about them but to categorize them as irrelevant for the moment. I don’t see how that is communicated other than retroactively after the audience member notices the texts on board the Falcon using their superhuman powers of focusing on every frame of this movie. And that’s an aggravating thing to do, treating this key insight into the story of Luke like an Easter egg.

Assume for a moment that that shot was not in the movie. Please, go with me there, and consider the Yoda scene without what came at the end of the movie. Thinking strictly from that limited POV, what’s the Yoda scene doing?

I know I’ve made some very poor decisions recently.

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darthrush said:

DominicCobb said:

Just because she saves the books doesn’t mean she’ll be married to the dogmatic views expressed in them. It was Luke that seemed beholden to that narrow minded view of them, not Rey.

It’s not as much a complaint of Rey as a character but rather the fact that the shot of the books is not needed and unnecessarily clouds what was otherwise a simple and powerful message. There’s just quite bluntly no need for the shot of the books.

Hard disagree. It shows one of the means of how she will continue her training. It doesn’t cloud anything. The message Yoda gives is not that the Jedi’s stubborn minded ways needed to end, not at all. The message is that Luke’s stubborn minded ways needed to end. Again, he was the one beholden to them, not Rey. So the fact that she has them in no way means that she’ll agonize over them in the same way Luke did (notice how the shot itself is actually part showing an action Finn does, we don’t see Rey with them at all. The last we see of Rey is her with other people - the suggestion being that she won’t soon end up in the same rut of isolation as Luke).

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Hal 9000 said:

So, Yoda is burning the books (or at least, apparently so) not because he’s agreeing or disagreeing with Luke about them but to categorize them as irrelevant for the moment. I don’t see how that is communicated other than retroactively after the audience member notices the texts on board the Falcon using their superhuman powers of focusing on every frame of this movie. And that’s an aggravating thing to do, treating this key insight into the story of Luke like an Easter egg.

Assume for a moment that that shot was not in the movie. Please, go with me there, and consider the Yoda scene without what came at the end of the movie. Thinking strictly from that limited POV, what’s the Yoda scene doing?

You should see the film again (or read a transcript, I’d provide one if I had it). The scene with Yoda is literally saying those things, with or without the shot of books at the end to reinterpret it. This is the whole reason why Yoda hits Luke with his cane, because he wasn’t thinking “for the moment,” as you say. Yoda doesn’t say anything about the content of the books himself except in reference to making fun of Luke (“Read them did you? Page turners, they are not.”).

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TavorX said:

RE: Rey keeping the books

Perhaps we can interpret it as Luke, a Force user, that has studied the ways the Force was taught and found its flaws but chose inaction; these books should be burned. Rey on the other hand is going to study the flaws of how the Force was taught but choose action and actually apply her wisdom, whether that means redeeming Kylo or craft a new Force Order, or both. Hence these books will have value because it offers a baseline of guidance, but not strict code for future generations.

Pretty much yes.

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If there were no shot of the books at the end of the film, is Yoda a book burner?

I know I’ve made some very poor decisions recently.

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I believe the shot of those books should stay not just because of what was been mentioned already, but it may send the wrong message when you’ve got the baddie Kylo Ren saying, “Let the past die, kill it” and then we’re led to think Yoda just ‘killed’ the past. Rey saving those books means both her and Yoda won’t let the past die.

The Rise of Failures

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 (Edited)

TavorX said:

I believe the shot of those books should stay not just because of what was been mentioned already, but it may send the wrong message when you’ve got the baddie Kylo Ren saying, “Let the past die, kill it” and then we’re led to think Yoda just ‘killed’ the past. Rey saving those books means both her and Yoda won’t let the past die.

I always saw the letting go of the past as something both sides did but in the evil and good way. Kylo kills his past so as to forget the love of his former friends and family so as to gain power. Our heroes are meant to learn and not dwell on the past and to rise above our past mistakes. Two very different sides of the coin of letting go of the past. Another element of “balance” in the film.

This is why I feel everything with Rey, Luke, Kylo, and Snoke is almost flawless minus some over the top humor moments. It’s just darn Canto Bight that brings the film down from greatness.

Return of the Jedi: Remastered

Lord of the Rings: The Darth Rush Definitives

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Hal 9000 said:

If there were no shot of the books at the end of the film, is Yoda a book burner?

That’s not really the point.

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Granted. But… ? sly, playful wink

I know I’ve made some very poor decisions recently.

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 (Edited)

darthrush said:

TavorX said:

I believe the shot of those books should stay not just because of what was been mentioned already, but it may send the wrong message when you’ve got the baddie Kylo Ren saying, “Let the past die, kill it” and then we’re led to think Yoda just ‘killed’ the past. Rey saving those books means both her and Yoda won’t let the past die.

I always saw the letting go of the past as something both sides did but in the evil and good way. Kylo kills his past so as to forget the love of his former friends and family so as to gain power. Our heroes are meant to learn and not dwell on the past and to rise above our past mistakes. Two very different sides of the coin of letting go of the past. Another element of “balance” in the film.

I agree, but I think there’s a difference between simply moving on from the past and killing it and everything it stood for.

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Are we sure Rey put the books there? Maybe Yoda did it…

Where were you in '77?

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Hal 9000 said:

Granted. But… ? sly, playful wink

Considering his age, I think it’s very possible at one point in his life he burned at least one book.

Also, it’s possible that Luke had a book on moisture farming in there that Rey found boring and irrelevant and left behind in the tree.

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DominicCobb said:

darthrush said:

TavorX said:

I believe the shot of those books should stay not just because of what was been mentioned already, but it may send the wrong message when you’ve got the baddie Kylo Ren saying, “Let the past die, kill it” and then we’re led to think Yoda just ‘killed’ the past. Rey saving those books means both her and Yoda won’t let the past die.

I always saw the letting go of the past as something both sides did but in the evil and good way. Kylo kills his past so as to forget the love of his former friends and family so as to gain power. Our heroes are meant to learn and not dwell on the past and to rise above our past mistakes. Two very different sides of the coin of letting go of the past. Another element of “balance” in the film.

I agree, but I think there’s a difference between moving on from the past and killing it and everything it stood for.

Yoda did burn the tree and everything it stood for. It stood as a symbol of a sacred and special place to hold sacred and special texts that dictate the old dogmatic ways of the Jedi. Yoda symbolically moves on from this and it isn’t hateful or “Killing the past” like Kylo. Yoda explains quite beautifully the importance of the simple things Rey possesses to continue the true legacy of the Jedi and how Luke has to learn to move on from the past.

Even at the end this theme is repeated. After Luke says he will not be the Last Jedi we see Rey use her powers to save her friends, but we also see her reunite with Finn and we see the immense amount of love she has for her friends and how she used her powers for good. We cut back to Luke with a face of content and happiness as he realizes what he is fighting for. He is fighting to salvage the love and beauty of others around him like Finn and Rey reuniting.

Return of the Jedi: Remastered

Lord of the Rings: The Darth Rush Definitives

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SilverWook said:

Are we sure Rey put the books there? Maybe Yoda did it…

Lord Vader’s sad devotion to that ancient religion couldn’t conjure up the stolen data tapes…
…but Yoda’s devotion to the Force was able to conjure up the Jedi text into Rey’s possession 🤔

On a serious note, my memory is fuzzy; I could had sworn Rey went into the Jedi library a second time, probably to imply she would take them eventually. Is that a false memory or what?

The Rise of Failures

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It’s weird because I ahead always thought that Luke would be the unconventional Jedi that would walk away from the dogmatic Jedi Order from the past. Guess I was wrong, and he followed the Jedi just like those who came before him, and Rey is now what Luke was.