The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 27

Was there a “I’ve got a bad feeling about this” line?

Matt.F said:

Ryan said:
But let me ask, with all of the interviews that Lucas has done. Has he ever said that OT Vader could “read minds”?

Yes, it’s referenced in A New Hope during the Death Star conference the officer says '‘Your sad devotion to that ancient religion hasn’t helped you conjure up the stolen data tapes or given you clairvoyance enough to find the rebels’ hidden fortress."

Motti is obviously mocking Vader’s abilities, without knowing what they entail, which is why this happens:

Vader also states that Leia’s “resistance to the mind probe is considerable”.

Mind probe:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mind_probe

This backs up exactly what Adywan has said - that those with the Force are actually BETTER at resisting mind probing than those without. It is the opposite of this convoluted nonsense that DrDre has been tying himself in knots trying to justify.

Leia wasn’t Luke’s sister yet when ANH was released, and thus wasn’t with the Force as you claim. She only became Luke’s sister during the development of ROTJ. The real nonsense is applying retroactive continuity to support your claims. Next you’ll claim Vader was Luke’s father in 1977, because it is stated in it’s sequels.

Matt.F said:

Ryan said:
But let me ask, with all of the interviews that Lucas has done. Has he ever said that OT Vader could “read minds”?

Yes, it’s referenced in A New Hope during the Death Star conference the officer says '‘Your sad devotion to that ancient religion hasn’t helped you conjure up the stolen data tapes or given you clairvoyance enough to find the rebels’ hidden fortress."

Vader also states that Leia’s “resistance to the mind probe is considerable”.

This backs up exactly what Adywan has said - that those with the Force are actually BETTER at resisting mind probing than those without. It is the opposite of this convoluted nonsense that DrDre has been tying himself in knots trying to justify.

If you want an in-universe explanation, then yes Vader does have clairvoyance, but no - after all his injuries he just isn’t very good at it!

The stuff you mention here doesn’t tell me or provide evidence that Vader can “read minds”.

The “mind probe” was that black round floating ball thing. I don’t see how you connect that to evidence of “Vader can read minds”.

And I don’t take “clairvoyance” to mean that Vader can “read minds”.

There’s just not any evidence or dialogue in the OT that says Vader can “read minds”.

But that doesn’t mean you or anyone can or can not believe that Vader CAN “read minds”. Just the same as someone could believe that Luke could “fly” because they saw him jump really high in Empire while fighting Vader.

About the RotJ “Vader read Luke’s mind” thing, I think that Luke had his mind Jedi Bluetooth on, and he was desperately trying to turn it off so that Vader wouldn’t access what he was making available. He failed though, he couldn’t hide his feelings/turn Jedi mind Bluetooth off, so Vader just kept teasing him until he gave in to the dark side and almost turned to the dark side. That’s always been my interpretation of the scene, ever since I was like 7.

adywan said:

Ryan said:

The OT doesn’t establish that Vader can “read minds”. It’s actually the opposite with Vader having to resort to torture to find out information others have.

So, my theory of what’s going on in the OT is supported by what we see in the OT movies.

It was established that Vader could read minds in ANH. The Mind probe is a Jedi ability to go through peoples minds in order to get useful information. That’s pretty much reading someone’s mind right there. Vader even said in ANH that “Her resistance to the mind probe is considerable” . And he wasn’t talking about the interrogator droid either. that ability was established in the OT. Just because he didn’t just read everyones mind doesn’t mean to say he couldn’t do it. We have seen Jedi have abilities then just don’t use them when they really could do with using them ( jedi speed run, super jump, mind control etc etc) .

Yes but some of the abilities you cited first appeared in the prequels and were criticized for creating “plot holes” in the OT where there wasn’t any, just like it’s being done now. And isn’t ‘probe’ a word for robot?

adywan said:

Ryan said:

The OT doesn’t establish that Vader can “read minds”. It’s actually the opposite with Vader having to resort to torture to find out information others have.

So, my theory of what’s going on in the OT is supported by what we see in the OT movies.

It was established that Vader could read minds in ANH. The Mind probe is a Jedi ability to go through peoples minds in order to get useful information. That’s pretty much reading someone’s mind right there. Vader even said in ANH that “Her resistance to the mind probe is considerable” . And he wasn’t talking about the interrogator droid either. that ability was established in the OT. Just because he didn’t just read everyones mind doesn’t mean to say he couldn’t do it. We have seen Jedi have abilities then just don’t use them when they really could do with using them ( jedi speed run, super jump, mind control etc etc) .

The “mind probe” in ANH was that black round floating ball. Someone posted a picture of it up above.

Do you not know the “mind probe” is a physical object?

adywan said:

Ryan said:

The OT doesn’t establish that Vader can “read minds”. It’s actually the opposite with Vader having to resort to torture to find out information others have.

So, my theory of what’s going on in the OT is supported by what we see in the OT movies.

It was established that Vader could read minds in ANH. The Mind probe is a Jedi ability to go through peoples minds in order to get useful information. That’s pretty much reading someone’s mind right there. Vader even said in ANH that “Her resistance to the mind probe is considerable” . And he wasn’t talking about the interrogator droid either. that ability was established in the OT. Just because he didn’t just read everyones mind doesn’t mean to say he couldn’t do it. We have seen Jedi have abilities then just don’t use them when they really could do with using them ( jedi speed run, super jump, mind control etc etc) .

Mind probe:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mind_probe

I quote:

“Mind probes were used by IT-O Interrogation Units to extract information from captives. The Jedi were trained to resist mind probes.”

“Developed in secret by the Imperial Department of Military Research, IT-Os were used by the Galactic Empire to extract information from prisoners through the use of mind probes. Jedi, however, were known to have been trained to resist mind probes, requiring the use of other methods to procure information from them. One IT-O droid was used to interrogate Kanan Jarrus aboard Grand Moff Wilhuff Tarkin’s Star Destroyer Sovereign. However, torture was eventually handed over to The Grand Inquisitor. Another IT-O was used aboard the Death Star to extract information from Princess Leia Organa, although she proved to have considerable resistance to the mind probe. The IT-O was later deployed on Yavin 4 during the Empire’s cleanup operations at the former Alliance base.”

I thought this was common knowledge ever since 1977, I guess I was wrong. Vader did not read or attempt to read Leia’s mind.

adywan said:

The Mind Probe is also a jedi power in canon. Who is to say which one he was talking about? 😉 If someone can say that Luke transmitted his thoughts to Vader, instead of vader reading his mind, then i can say that the mind probe that he was talking about is also the established jedi Mind Probe 😉

And, if we are using wiki, this clears up that Vader was using the mind probe (thus reading Luke’;s mind) in ROTJ 😉
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mind_probe_(Force_power)

…retro-active continuity.

Either way let’s say you are right. That still doesn’t alter the validity of my criticism, that Snoke conveniently forgot to read Rey’s mind, when he connected Kylo and Rey.

It also means Vader did attempt to read Leia’s mind, but failed, and so there’s no contrivance as claimed by my new friend.

And if we are using wiki, then this clarifies that Leia was a force ‘USER’ prior to A New Hope, when she apparently saved a girl from falling off a balcony.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Leia_Organa_Solo

Shall we continue DrDre?

adywan said:

The Mind Probe is also a jedi power in canon. Who is to say which one he was talking about? 😉 If someone can say that Luke transmitted his thoughts to Vader, instead of vader reading his mind, then i can say that the mind probe that he was talking about is also the established jedi Mind Probe 😉

And, if we are using wiki, this clears up that Vader was using the mind probe (thus reading Luke’;s mind) in ROTJ 😉
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mind_probe_(Force_power)

I read through your link. I don’t know who wrote all of that stuff. But obviously we know with Disney take over that Kylo could “read minds”.

The question is if in OT that Vader could “read minds”. And there’s nothing in those movies to say that he can.

Also, the fact is in ANH that the “mind probe” was that black round floating ball. Everyone has understood that to be true. I’ve always thought that.

Now, we’re not talking about someone later on retconning the thing. So we’re talking about what was true in 1983.

“Mind probe was a powerful ability of the Force that allowed the user to sift through the thoughts of the victim, seeking useful information. The mind probe was highly invasive and and those being subjected to it could feel great discomfort, to the point of extreme pain, making it useful in torturing subjects that attempted to resist. However, such resistance would be unsuccessful in a being without the power to use the Force.[5]”

Hang on DrDre, read that last line again… because that’s not what you’ve claimed. You claim only Force Users can be mind probed. This says the opposite. What a surprise. In fact Adywan is right - Force Users have defence against having their minds read… non Force Users do not.

Dre… you’re wrong. Have been all along. Sorry old chap.

One other thing I’ll say about my second viewing:

Puppet Yoda looked a TON better than I remembered from my first viewing, but every time the fire was directly on his face, he looked weird. I don’t think I’ll have a problem with TLJ puppet Yoda the way I did TPM’s.

ChainsawAsh said:

One other thing I’ll say about my second viewing:

Puppet Yoda looked a TON better than I remembered from my first viewing, but every time the fire was directly on his face, he looked weird. I don’t think I’ll have a problem with TLJ puppet Yoda the way I did TPM’s.

I think Yoda looks “weird” in TLJ. But yes, he looks a lot better than the puppet in TPM. I was actually glad that Lucas CGI’d in a Yoda for TPM Blu-Ray. So I’ll never again have to see the Yoda puppet in TPM.

Matt.F said:

And if we are using wiki, then this clarifies that Leia was a force ‘USER’ prior to A New Hope, when she apparently saved a girl from falling off a balcony.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Leia_Organa_Solo

Shall we continue DrDre?

Oke, a history lesson. Star Wars was a film released in 1977, while it’s sequels were released in 1980 and 1983.

Leia saved that girl in the book “The Last of the Jedi: Master of Deception” released in 2008.

I’m sure you’re understanding where I’m going with this. If a new book comes out that claims Leia has wings, or that her famous hairbuns were really head phones, this doesn’t in any way imply that Geoge Lucas envisioned it that way, when he made the films. That would be retro-active continuity or a retcon.

However, as I stated earlier, you’re whole argument against my statement that Snoke forgot to use his mind reading powers for plot convenience, hinged on the flawed idea that the OT was equally contrived, because Vader did not use mind reading powers on Antilles and Leia.

Applying retro-active continuity for the sake of the argument, and your own words, Vader did attempt to use mind reading on Leia, but failed, and used old fashioned torture to get the information from Antilles.

So, my criticism against Snoke still stands, while your counter argument has been debunked.

Shall we continue, Matt F.?

Matt.F said:

Dre… you’re wrong. Have been all along. Sorry old chap.

Only if you apply a retcon, which is what I’ve been arguing all along.

However, even if we apply a retcon, as you’ve been doing over and over, TLJ’s application of the mind reading power is still inconsistent and contrived, while your argument that the same applies to the OT is still debunked. Sorry, old chap, you’ll have to do better than this.

DrDre said:

Matt.F said:

And if we are using wiki, then this clarifies that Leia was a force ‘USER’ prior to A New Hope, when she apparently saved a girl from falling off a balcony.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Leia_Organa_Solo

Shall we continue DrDre?

Oke, a history lesson. Star Wars was a film released in 1977, while it’s sequels were released in 1980 and 1983.

Leia saved that girl in the book “The Last of the Jedi: Master of Deception” released in 2008.

I’m sure you’re understanding where I’m going with this. If a new books comes out that claims Leia has wings, this doesnt in any way imply that Geoge Lucas envisioned Leia with wings when he made the films.

However, as I stated earlier, you’re whole argument against my statement that Snoke forgot to use his mind reading powers for plot convenience, hinged on the flawed idea that the OT was equally contrived, because Vader did not use mind reading powers on Antilles and Leia.

Applying retro-active continuity and your own words, Vader did attempt to use mind reading on Leia, but failed, and used old fashioned torture to get the information from Antilles.

So, my criticism against Snoke still stands, while your counter argument has been debunked.

Shall we continue, Matt F.?

I don’t think in OT that Vader could read minds. But obviously Disney now says that force users CAN read minds.

So I think it’s best to just stick with what we see in the OT movies, and nothing in it says that Vader can “read minds”.

I know there are “canon” comic books that have been coming out that are taking place during the OT. Does any of that have Vader “reading minds”?

If Disney retcons the OT rules, then I guess you’ll have to decide to believe what’s in the OT movies, or believe what Disney has retconned. Though I’m not saying that Disney has “retconned” that Vader can “read minds”.

But at this point, it’s either in the movies, or has been retconned by Disney with the new comic books and books that are out.

I’ve not seen anyone post something from “canon” that has Vader “reading minds”. I don’t know, maybe it’s in a new comic book or book that Disney has put out.

Let’s say if Disney put out a comic book that has Luke “flying around like Superman” during the OT, then you’d have to decide if you believe what you see in the OT movies, or what Disney has retconned.

DrDre said:

The more you think about it, the more TLJ falls apart at the seams. Let’s look at Snoke’s brilliant plan.

Snoke is able to instantly read her mind in the throne room and finds out, Luke wants to die. Snoke even jokes about it. Yet, despite these awesome powers, he’s not smart enough to read her mind while she’s with Luke to find out where she is.

Because the Mind Probe only works when you’re close to someone, you cant do a Mind Probe from trillions of miles away - thought everyone knew that! You in particular who had earlier kept banging on about characters having to be close to each other to mentally connect. Blimey, you’re not being very consistent.

Matt.F said:

DrDre said:

The more you think about it, the more TLJ falls apart at the seams. Let’s look at Snoke’s brilliant plan.

Snoke is able to instantly read her mind in the throne room and finds out, Luke wants to die. Snoke even jokes about it. Yet, despite these awesome powers, he’s not smart enough to read her mind while she’s with Luke to find out where she is.

Because the Mind Probe only works when you’re close to someone, you cant do a Mind Probe from trillions of miles away - thought everyone knew that! You in particular who had earlier kept banging on about characters having to be close to each other to mentally connect. Blimey, you’re not being very consistent.

I see, but you can connect two minds, such that someone else, namely Kylo can read her mind and find out the identity of her parents from a trillion miles away, as he states to her in one of their mind melts, and subsequently reveals in the throne room. I see your logic, NOT!!!

Snoke can link their minds from a trillion miles away, make Rey believe Kylo will turn to the light side by feeding her false information, allow Kylo and Rey to read each other’s minds, to see AND to touch each other, but he can’t read her mind himself, because…?

You know what this spells? The words inconsistent and contrived.

adywan said:

ChainsawAsh said:

One other thing I’ll say about my second viewing:

Puppet Yoda looked a TON better than I remembered from my first viewing, but every time the fire was directly on his face, he looked weird. I don’t think I’ll have a problem with TLJ puppet Yoda the way I did TPM’s.

The thing i did notice though was how the pupeteers squashed his face up way too much when they closed his mouth, which gave him this strange “puffed out cheeks with no mouth” look

Yep, this right here is the only problem that I still have with TLJ Yoda. Noticed it both times, but everything else looked fine (bar the occasionally weird lighting) the second time around.

Same theater both times for me, though…weird.