The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 23

TavorX said:

Novus_Opiate said:
He says the temptation came over him but for a brief moment. He wasn’t going to actually do it.

Yeah I get that; what I don’t get is why it even came to that point to begin with? I mean we have to consider, it wasn’t simply a tempting thought, but those thoughts actually compelled Luke to pull out his lightsaber and ignite it! That’s so irrational of Luke. Sure, I bet killing Kylo is a thought would had crossed anyone’s mind if they learned Kylo’s taint of the darkside, but this is Luke here. I’d buy Luke was outside of Kylo’s hut, stewing back and forth of what to do and how to confront him; however again, it’s beyond me to think this temptation compelled Luke to pull out his lightsaber and stop himself from committing the murder at the last second.

Maybe what he saw in Kylo’s mind was traumatic and like Luke said “acted on instinct”. Might’ve been better to show what Luke saw.

TavorX said:

Novus_Opiate said:
He says the temptation came over him but for a brief moment. He wasn’t going to actually do it.

Yeah I get that; what I don’t get is why it even came to that point to begin with? I mean we have to consider, it wasn’t simply a tempting thought, but those thoughts actually compelled Luke to pull out his lightsaber and ignite it! That’s so irrational of Luke. Sure, I bet killing Kylo is a thought would had crossed anyone’s mind if they learned Kylo’s taint of the darkside, but this is Luke here. I’d buy Luke was outside of Kylo’s hut, stewing back and forth of what to do and how to confront him; however again, it’s beyond me to think this temptation compelled Luke to pull out his lightsaber and stop himself from committing the murder at the last second.

dahmage said:
Luke’s final version and what is generally accepted as the true version has Luke go in to read kylo Ren’s mind. After seeing kylo rens darkness he has what he describes as a very brief moment of thinking that it would be better to kill him. And without thinking ignited his lightsaber and immediately, immediately regretted that decision.
No, again, it makes no sense. Luke in ROTJ was struggling between whether to kill Vader or redeem him, and yes, it came to that point where he was tempted to really finish Vader off, but he came to senses to not fall for the bait. So all these years later, that lesson he learned was for nothing…?

I don’t get all these complaints that boil down to “Luke would never do that” (including disappearing in the first place) when we basically saw nothing that happened between the end of ROTJ and TFA/TLJ. People change, especially those that have suffered trauma. It’s the same complaint about Han that makes no sense either.

Pretty sure Luke refers to it as “a moment of pure instinct”. It’s not that he was compelled by thoughts of temptation; he wasn’t thinking at all. And as soon as he does think about it he’s immediately overcome by shame and regret.

DominicCobb said:

dahmage said:

Novus_Opiate said:

Hopefully this will not go ignored as I am going to make my best attempt to break down the film.

I think The Last Jedi, more so than any other film in the series, relies on parallel themes. First the theme of legends and how holding someone or yourself at a high standard only leads to disappointment and failure:

Kylo with Luke
Poe with Holdo
Rose with Finn

Or surpassing you former idol:
“We are what they grow beyond” as Yoda said.
Finn with Phasma
Kylo with Snoke

The Luke complaints in my opinion are unrealistic. Do you think a human being is incapable of making a mistake like Luke did? The whole point of the film is that no one, even a legend, is incapable of mistakes. Someone as great as Obi Wan failed with Anakin. Not a huge stretch of the imagination to me.

There have been a lot of complaints about Snoke as well. He gets no more or less a back story than Palpatine in Return of the Jedi. He is a victim of his own arrogance. Kylo, who couldn’t win a fight with Snoke one on one defeats him the only way he can, by exploiting a character flaw. He thought he was so powerful and knew Kylo so well. He underestimated him because Snoke believed his own myth. He closed his eyes and looked into Kylo’s mind but couldn’t see what was happening right in front of him.

Poe was so disappointed and distrusting of Holdo he refused to hear her reasoning before calling her a traitor and committing mutiny because she was famous and he held her to an unrealistic standard.

Finn’s ambivalence to the cause is reflected through his willingness to run away at the beginning in the escape pod scene. Rose as a result feels betrayed by her “legend” image of “the Finn”. The hard truths of the moral ambivalence of Canto Bight and DJ’s betrayal lead into Finn’s defeat of Phasma and embrace of the name “rebel scum”. These the beginnings of his embrace of the rebel cause ending with his willingness to sacrifice his life to save everyone.

The next is destroying the past and moving forward:

Kylo’s mask
Rey’s parents
The Jedi Tree
Anakin’s Lightsaber

Kylo destroys his mask to move away from Vader idolotry and become his own person.

Rey thought her parent’s identity would give her meaning or the fans thought being a Skywalker would give her a place in the Saga.

The destruction of the tree is a symbol of the end of the old Jedi order and a move away from the religious aspects of the black and white Jedi vs Sith. As Luke says why should a religion take ownership of something as universal as the force?

The final scene between Kylo and Luke is an act of pacifism. He has no intention of killing Kylo. Like Obi Wan in A New Hope he sacrifices his life against a failed apprentice to save the others and “the last jedi”.

The two suns aren’t merely a call back but an emotional parrallel. In A New Hope he was a farm boy ready for something greater and now he is a Jedi Master in the same place he was then.

I wrote this in a past post but I don’t think anyone payed attention. A detail I caught at the beginning of the film is when Rey hands Luke the lightsaber he’s wearing white robes. Luke then returns to his hut then puts them up in a box. We do not see him wearing this until near the end. It seems he was ready to die at the beginning of the film and Rey interrupted him.

Let me know if I missed anything.

Pretty good I think, except you mean Rey and Luke, not kylo and Luke.

I did see your comment about the robes and looked for it when I was next in the theater. But I felt like there was another time that Luke wore those robes. Didn’t he have them on when he was training Rey? Or some other scene in between.

When he goes to burn down the temple.

You’re right but those events could’ve happened in tandem. Maybe it’s a stretch though.

Hal 9000 said:

I think the second and third version of Luke and Ben’s nighttime flashback scene are not different enough.

2nd version: Luke tried to kill him.

3rd version: He was only about to.

I really hate to say it, but I’m liking this movie less and less as time goes on.

I think the three versions were great. And you’ve over-simplified the third one.

1st (Luke’s as told to Rey): Ben woke up and attacked.
2nd (Ben’s as told to Rey): Luke tried to kill Ben first.
3rd (Luke’s revised and presumably true version): Luke thought about killing Ben, for just a moment, after seeing the full darkness within Ben. He changed his mind almost immediately, but Ben woke to see Luke standing over him with a lightsaber and it was too late.

JEDIT: This…

joefavs said:

Pretty sure Luke refers to it as “a moment of pure instinct”. It’s not that he was compelled by thoughts of temptation; he wasn’t thinking at all. And as soon as he does think about it he’s immediately overcome by shame and regret.

I don’t think Luke drawing his saber is out-of-character at all. In ROTJ, Luke had years to come to terms with what Vader had done. He didn’t have that time to contemplate and figure out what to do with Ben. And, as others have said, it was purely an instinctual reaction for him to draw his saber.

chyron8472 said:

You think Snoke is going to be the next Palpatine (ie. big bad who dies at the end of the third film), but he’s not.

You think Luke is going to mentor Rey but he doesn’t.

You think Leia is dead but she’s not.

You think someone or something on the Light Side is connecting Rey and Ren, but it’s Snoke, but it’s again not really.

You think Finn is going to destroy the tracker but he doesn’t and gets caught. You think there’s no way out except then BB-8 shows up in a chicken walker.

You think Poe is going to save the cruiser but he doesn’t.

You think it’s the Vice Admiral coming through the door but it isn’t.

You think Luke is on the planet fighting Ren but he’s not.

You think Ren is going to kill Rey but he doesn’t—he does exactly what Vader wanted to do in ESB but couldn’t.

 

It’s the best thing about the film. It keeps throwing curve balls.

Oh, and that business about Rey’s family being nobodies from nowheresville, Ren told her that. There is no guarantee that he was not lying. But even if he wasn’t, I like the idea that not the whole of the The Force hinges directly on descendants of the House of Skywalker (as many people speculated that she was a daughter of Luke or Leia).

Good analysis. The best I’ve read so far! I loved the film. The code /casino plot were the weakest part but everything else was superb. Highlights were Lukes version of the night he almost killed Ben / The Rey-Ren connection / the throne room scene and the final showdown between Luke and the FO.

I hope Ep IX centers around Rens desire to capture his mother ALIVE and the accidental death of her during a capture attempt bringing him back to the light. But we’ll see. I’d also love to see Luke haunt Ben as he said he would rather than train Rey.

Hal 9000 said:

I think the second and third version of Luke and Ben’s nighttime flashback scene are not different enough.

2nd version: Luke tried to kill him.

3rd version: He was only about to.

I really hate to say it, but I’m liking this movie less and less as time goes on.

What’s going on in Luke’s head is the key.

In my mind Luke is another way in which the ST has made up for the problems of the ST. Much like Han (who has next to no depth in ROTJ), the Luke of ROTJ is simply not as interesting as the one in SW and ESB. He basically goes from fucking up big time at the end of one movies to being uber confident and wise at the start of the next. At not point does him turning to the dark side in ROTJ seem like a plausible possibility.

NFBisms said:

Most of us going “Luke really wouldn’t do that!” just plays into the whole theme of Luke as a legend and Luke as just a man. The idea that the legends had a clear hero’s journey in which Luke became and continued to become better is just that, a pretty story. As much as Luke learned, and as good of a person he is at his core, he’s still fallible. No one of us can say we hadn’t repeated our mistakes, or had moments we thought we were better than. There’s nothing more human than having one fleeting moment come and pass, changing everything, and you can never take it back. Luke had the galaxy on his shoulders, and he felt he failed it.

“I can’t be what she needs me to be!”

That theme connects to Poe/Finn’s plot too; their efforts to forge their own heroic legends, with the Dreadnought, with their “disable the tracker” plan, all ended up being for nothing or at a heavy cost in the end. Instead of looking back to destroy or run from what you hate, for example your past or your regrets (in the case of Luke and Kylo) or in fighting your enemy (Poe), you live with it, and move on to protect what you have left - the future.

Idk, the more I think about it, the more I like it.

Yes exactly.

The fact that the all powerful and unceasingly righteous Luke of the old EU is now literally the Luke of “Legends” is pretty much the most perfect thing.

TavorX said:

DominicCobb said:

In my mind Luke is another way in which the ST has made up for the problems of the ST. Much like Han (who has next to no depth in ROTJ), the Luke of ROTJ is simply not as interesting as the one in SW and ESB. He basically goes from fucking up big time at the end of one movies to being uber confident and wise at the start of the next. At no point does him turning to the dark side in ROTJ seem like a plausible possibility.

Huh.
Vader toying with Luke about Leia was really eating at his mind, which really sent Luke over the edge there. The only thing that stopped Luke was seeing both Vader’s chopped off hand and his cybernetic hand, realizing that Vader is still a human as just as much as Luke is, even underneath all that machinery; challenging Obi-Wan’s line of, “He’s more machine than man.”

I know that moment (I know that film by heart). It’s great. But nothing that precedes it would lead you to believe that Luke might actually finish Vader off and turn.

I’m not the biggest “Luke almost killed Ben” fan, but the payoff of that is just so wonderful that it’s been growing on me.

TavorX said:

DominicCobb said:

TavorX said:

DominicCobb said:

In my mind Luke is another way in which the ST has made up for the problems of the ST. Much like Han (who has next to no depth in ROTJ), the Luke of ROTJ is simply not as interesting as the one in SW and ESB. He basically goes from fucking up big time at the end of one movies to being uber confident and wise at the start of the next. At no point does him turning to the dark side in ROTJ seem like a plausible possibility.

Huh.
Vader toying with Luke about Leia was really eating at his mind, which really sent Luke over the edge there. The only thing that stopped Luke was seeing both Vader’s chopped off hand and his cybernetic hand, realizing that Vader is still a human as just as much as Luke is, even underneath all that machinery; challenging Obi-Wan’s line of, “He’s more machine than man.”

I know that moment (I know that film by heart). It’s great. But nothing that precedes it would lead you to believe that Luke might actually finish Vader off and turn.

But saying it’s not “plausible” seems like a disservice to how we saw Luke in ROTJ. Unless I’m misunderstanding you, it sounded as if you’re implying Luke struggled very little by the temptations of the dark side and effortlessly accepted the light all the way through, when in fact, the mere thought of Vader doing anything to Leia greatly sent him over the edge. All that rage was pure seduction of the dark side. If he had not struck Vader in the spot that he did, it’s fairly likely he would had turned.

Vader’s hand chopped off by Luke = Luke forming a connection of empathy, thus not going full dark side
Vader’s hand not chopped off = Luke most likely believing that getting rid of Vader will save Leia and his friends

You’re not quite getting what I mean. Luke shows no signs of temptation whatsoever up to that point. So, in storytelling terms, it’s hard to believe in that moment that Luke will go through with it.

I’m talking in pure terms of how Luke is ultimately perceived by the audience, not necessarily how the filmmakers wanted his story to go (my point being, they failed to make his temptation believable).

Saw it again. Liked it a lot more, and I’ve made peace with Luke’s death.

I don’t think he “willed himself into the Force,” but I do think he knew what he was going to do would kill him, and he sacrificed himself willingly.

And yeah, Force spirit Luke is definitely haunting Kylo in IX. It would be a huge missed opportunity if that doesn’t happen, especially since, as has been pointed out, he flat-out tells Kylo that’s what he’s going to do.

ADigitalMan said:

Not sure why so many folks aren’t understanding Luke’s death. He didn’t wear out from mental exhaustion, he willed himself to the force, just like Obi-Wan, and he said he was going to do it to Kylo beforehand, just like Obi-Wan did to Vader. And clearly he intends to haunt Kylo.

Last I checked, Obi-wan was killed by Vader.

I love the flim this is a star wars film you have to let sit with you. most people i was disappointed that we didn’t see Luke become the uiltmate bad ass but I started thinking about the film I love it I only hate one section that is the rose and Finn story line but beside that I loved the flim. my updated Star Wars order I need to watch it again but here is the order after thinking about it for 4 hours

From best to worst

1. The empire strikes back
2. Star Wars (a new hope)
3. The Last Jedi
4. The force awakens
5. Return of the Jedi
6. Revenge of the sith
7. Rogue one
8. The phantom menace
9. Attack of the clones

TV’s Frink said:

TavorX said:

Novus_Opiate said:
He says the temptation came over him but for a brief moment. He wasn’t going to actually do it.

Yeah I get that; what I don’t get is why it even came to that point to begin with? I mean we have to consider, it wasn’t simply a tempting thought, but those thoughts actually compelled Luke to pull out his lightsaber and ignite it! That’s so irrational of Luke. Sure, I bet killing Kylo is a thought would had crossed anyone’s mind if they learned Kylo’s taint of the darkside, but this is Luke here. I’d buy Luke was outside of Kylo’s hut, stewing back and forth of what to do and how to confront him; however again, it’s beyond me to think this temptation compelled Luke to pull out his lightsaber and stop himself from committing the murder at the last second.

dahmage said:
Luke’s final version and what is generally accepted as the true version has Luke go in to read kylo Ren’s mind. After seeing kylo rens darkness he has what he describes as a very brief moment of thinking that it would be better to kill him. And without thinking ignited his lightsaber and immediately, immediately regretted that decision.
No, again, it makes no sense. Luke in ROTJ was struggling between whether to kill Vader or redeem him, and yes, it came to that point where he was tempted to really finish Vader off, but he came to senses to not fall for the bait. So all these years later, that lesson he learned was for nothing…?

I don’t get all these complaints that boil down to “Luke would never do that” (including disappearing in the first place) when we basically saw nothing that happened between the end of ROTJ and TFA/TLJ. People change, especially those that have suffered trauma. It’s the same complaint about Han that makes no sense either.

Sorry, but in movies you don’t change people’s characters off-screen unless it’s logical. Luke growing wiser and more confident between TESB and ROTJ is logical. Luke going from believing in his Nazi father to contemplating his nephews murder is not. Such a change of character needs to be explained more thoroughly. Given that so many don’t buy the way Luke behaves, I think it’s clear this part of the plot is underdeveloped.