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My thoughts on reading this thread:
We’re there not already sufficient threads to discuss SE changes? Should all users create a new thread to post our thoughts on them? I want one too.
The Person in Question
My thoughts on various changes — Page 3
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What always comes to my mind is that if you are evil for most of your life and then turn good at the last second before death, you get to be a young ghost, but if you’re an okay guy into your elder years then you have to be an old man ghost.
It’s the best advert for the Dark Side.
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Palpatine must be a babe post-mortem.
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Between 1983 and 2004, the apparition of Shaw has not bothered anyone, everyone understood he obviously was Anakin and NOBODY never said, before 2004: “Hey, it’s not logical.”
As I’ve said before, Shaw as Anakin made sense until Christensen was cast in the role. Up until that point, you could assume that Anakin looked like Shaw right before turning. Now, we know very well that’s not the case.
Only if you acknowledge the PT exists.
Good luck staying in your little bubble. You know as well as I do that there’s no avoiding their existence. They’re too well known for people to forget them just because they want to. There will always be plenty of reminders of their existence. Even here, on a site called OT.com.
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My little bubble?
Lol.
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Let’s just make that “your” plural.
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What?
The Person in Question
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If someone can ignore the Highlander sequels, Jurassic Park sequels, etc. and watch the originals without having memories of the crappy spinoffs taint their view of them, then the same can certainly be done with SW.
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What?
Yours little bubble.
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Sooo Frink has many bubbles???
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If Shaw is used, this is the only version Luke would recognize:
He would recognise him more than some mop haired kid that just appears. Just a couple of scars and no hair doesn’t make him unrecognisable at all. Information is not easily available under the oppression of a regime like the Empire. He couldn’t just look up information about his father. The Emperor would have suppressed all of that. If it was so easy for Luke to look up info on his father, then it wouldn’t have been too hard for him to discover that he became Vader.
Anakin appearing as his younger self is ridiculous. So, one of the most evil men in the galaxy can suddenly return to his youth, while the other two jedi have to remain their older selves? And the fan theories about how he returns to his form when he was last a good man is also ridiculous. Not only is he NOT a good man on the light side of the force when he looked like that, ( He had already begun on the path to the dark side, He had, after all, slaughtered a whole village of Tuskens, including the women and children, out of anger long before he looked like that), but that also completely destroys the whole redemption arc of ROTJ. Anakin turns back to the light side prior to his death. Him becoming a force ghost originally symbolised that. Before the rubbish that they had to learn it, which Anakin had no knowledge of, so couldn’t have become a force ghost. God, the prequels screwed so much up in the OT
Spot on Ady.
The prevailing argument in this thread for having a Hayden ghost (or more accurately, a Hayden head 😉 ) seems to just be so that he is instantly recognisable from the PT for the sake of the audience and f**k any considerations of logic and consistency for the sake of the story and character in the actual movie being viewed at the time.
Yet it’s a significantly smaller leap of logic to accept the Shaw ghost as Anakin Skywalker and understand that Luke recognises him as Anakin since we both only just saw the very same actor / character not a few minutes earlier and seeing a new force ghost appear (Shaw’s) that we’ve never seen before, right after we know a master of the force just recently returned to the light side (we never see any dark side force ghosts) and died who is now standing beside Ben and Yoda, pretty much screams that it’s obviously Anakin and the fact he doesn’t look that close to Hayden is just something the audience has to swallow in the knowledge that these movies were made 28 YEARS apart.
The leap in logic to accept young Hayden as old Anakin in contrast to what is already established at this point as to how Jedi masters appear as force ghosts is just to big in comparison and no explanation is given to help bridge it, so it’s left to the audience to come up with their own explanations of which there are numerous that often clash with each other instead of everyone having the same common understanding from having previously already witnessed the lore that is actually established throughout the 3 movies.
It’s basically just a massive retcon that George throws in there to try and tie in the PT more with the OT but which fails from the outset, serving only instead to spit on the original movie, the original actor and the fans that already loved the movie and didn’t want to see such an intrusive and illogical change on their memories of it.
.Val
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it’s a significantly smaller leap of logic to accept the Shaw ghost as Anakin Skywalker
I don’t see how it makes more sense for him to appear in a form he never had than one he did.
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Also, I think Anakin Starkiller is feigning ignorance. No one can be this dense.
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it’s a significantly smaller leap of logic to accept the Shaw ghost as Anakin Skywalker
I don’t see how it makes more sense for him to appear in a form he never had than one he did.
I don’t see how it makes sense for him to appear in a form where he was heading straight to the dark side. Anakin stopped being a pure Jedi when he slaughtered the Tusken Raiders in Episode 2. His appearance in Jedi is from Episode 3, where the first thing he does is decapitating a helpless prisoner. And that is supposed to be his true, uncorrupted self?
Ceci n’est pas une signature.
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it’s a significantly smaller leap of logic to accept the Shaw ghost as Anakin Skywalker
I don’t see how it makes more sense for him to appear in a form he never had than one he did.
With that kind of logic, his ghost could have the form of young Jake Lloyd when he was pure light force made by midichlorians…
Seriously, I cannot understand how Hayden’s face would be more logical than Shaw’s one.
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it’s a significantly smaller leap of logic to accept the Shaw ghost as Anakin Skywalker
I don’t see how it makes more sense for him to appear in a form he never had than one he did.
The way I believe force ghosts are supposed to work is they are either a representation of your soul (which remains whole regardless of missing body parts) or it appears as you see yourself.
Real life amputees often still feel as if their missing limb is there and if you’re like Vader where any limb lost is replaced with a mechanical one that operates just as good as your real one then he would have still seen himself as a whole person and therefore returns as his whole self. If he instead lived half his life without one of his arms then he may well have returned as a one armed force ghost as it’s a projection of his self image.
That’s what I figure anyway.
.Val
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it’s a significantly smaller leap of logic to accept the Shaw ghost as Anakin Skywalker
I don’t see how it makes more sense for him to appear in a form he never had than one he did.
Because in spirit form he can take what form he wants but still appeared as a representation of the person Luke saw behind the mask. What more do you want??
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But that’s from other movies. Different rules apply.
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But that’s from other movies. Different rules apply.
The sarcasm is strong with this one. 😎
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Seriously, I cannot understand how Hayden’s face would be more logical than Shaw’s one.
Shaw’s face would actually be better…if it were bald and grey. Otherwise, Hayden makes more sense.
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Also, I think Anakin Starkiller is feigning ignorance. No one can be this dense.
What’s this supposed to mean?
In regards to repetition, I just didn’t know what else to say. In retrospective, I suppose it was pointless, but what can I say; I was triggered. Anyway, at this point I can’t be bother to debate this anymore. Besides, like I said, there’s nothing more for me to add. We’ll just have to agree to disagree. In the meantime, I’ll be contemplating the feasibility of editing Shaw’s ghost to look like Vader unmasked.
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My thoughts on reading this thread:
We’re there not already sufficient threads to discuss SE changes? Should all users create a new thread to post our thoughts on them? I want one too.
I’m still adjusting to OT.com. I’m used to reddit, where threads are quickly abandoned and everything new gets it’s own thread.
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So as a force ghost he either needs to age backwards 30 years from when he died or he has to still have his physical scars for it to make sense?
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Also, I think Anakin Starkiller is feigning ignorance. No one can be this dense.
What’s this supposed to mean?
You want an explanation?
Hayden as Anakin’s ghost. It doesn’t make sense for him to appear as an unscarred Shaw because he never looked like that.
Doesn’t make sense for Jacob Marley to appear in chains because he never looked like that.
Doesn’t make sense for Johnny Bartlett to appear as Death because he never looked like that.
Doesn’t make sense for whoever-the-hell-she-was to appear as whatever-the-hell-this-is because she never looked like that.
Doesn’t make sense for the Maitlands to appear as stretch-faced monsters because they never looked like that.
They’re ghosts. Ghosts can appear however the hell they want to appear.
Those are from other movies. Different rules apply.
Whom says?
Funny how nobody – absolutely nobody – complained about Shaw-as-Anakin not making any sense/being confusing until the Hayden change was introduced.
Because up until a year a two before he was added, nobody knew what a young Anakin looked like. It’s a retroactive plot hole, but an inevitable one, when making the Prequels.
Again I dont get what him looking like when he was younger has to do with him choosing to appear as his older self in the Force. Just because he never appeared as an unscarred old man before dying means he can’t appear so after he dies?? Why not?? Are there rules about what forms those in the afterlife, or Force rather, can take form of once they die?? Dracula can take form of a wolf yet I’m sure he wasn’t as such before he became one of the undead. And don’t give me the whole ‘thats another movie/story’ argument. Also who’s to say Anakin didn’t choose to appear as an unscarred old gent so Luke could have a better representation of the man he saw behind the mask?? If you can give proof that these rules about what one can take form of in the Force are real then fine but until then I don’t see where your implications that this change was inevitable are coming from.
You never did back up your bold assertion that Force ghosts can’t shapeshift. You didn’t provide any quotes from the films, or from Lucas, or even from the EU which falsifys shapeshifting as a potential Force ghost ability. You instead ignored us both and continued on your merry way. And then there’s Val’s recent comment.
If Shaw is used, this is the only version Luke would recognize:
He would recognise him more than some mop haired kid that just appears. Just a couple of scars and no hair doesn’t make him unrecognisable at all. Information is not easily available under the oppression of a regime like the Empire. He couldn’t just look up information about his father. The Emperor would have suppressed all of that. If it was so easy for Luke to look up info on his father, then it wouldn’t have been too hard for him to discover that he became Vader.
Anakin appearing as his younger self is ridiculous. So, one of the most evil men in the galaxy can suddenly return to his youth, while the other two jedi have to remain their older selves? And the fan theories about how he returns to his form when he was last a good man is also ridiculous. Not only is he NOT a good man on the light side of the force when he looked like that, ( He had already begun on the path to the dark side, He had, after all, slaughtered a whole village of Tuskens, including the women and children, out of anger long before he looked like that), but that also completely destroys the whole redemption arc of ROTJ. Anakin turns back to the light side prior to his death. Him becoming a force ghost originally symbolised that. Before the rubbish that they had to learn it, which Anakin had no knowledge of, so couldn’t have become a force ghost. God, the prequels screwed so much up in the OT
Spot on Ady.
The prevailing argument in this thread for having a Hayden ghost (or more accurately, a Hayden head 😉 ) seems to just be so that he is instantly recognisable from the PT for the sake of the audience and f**k any considerations of logic and consistency for the sake of the story and character in the actual movie being viewed at the time.
Yet it’s a significantly smaller leap of logic to accept the Shaw ghost as Anakin Skywalker and understand that Luke recognises him as Anakin since we both only just saw the very same actor / character not a few minutes earlier and seeing a new force ghost appear (Shaw’s) that we’ve never seen before, right after we know a master of the force just recently returned to the light side (we never see any dark side force ghosts) and died who is now standing beside Ben and Yoda, pretty much screams that it’s obviously Anakin and the fact he doesn’t look that close to Hayden is just something the audience has to swallow in the knowledge that these movies were made 28 YEARS apart.
The leap in logic to accept young Hayden as old Anakin in contrast to what is already established at this point as to how Jedi masters appear as force ghosts is just to big in comparison and no explanation is given to help bridge it, so it’s left to the audience to come up with their own explanations of which there are numerous that often clash with each other instead of everyone having the same common understanding from having previously already witnessed the lore that is actually established throughout the 3 movies.
It’s basically just a massive retcon that George throws in there to try and tie in the PT more with the OT but which fails from the outset, serving only instead to spit on the original movie, the original actor and the fans that already loved the movie and didn’t want to see such an intrusive and illogical change on their memories of it.
.Val
A perfectly cogent argument. Your response?
it’s a significantly smaller leap of logic to accept the Shaw ghost as Anakin Skywalker
I don’t see how it makes more sense for him to appear in a form he never had than one he did.
You blithely ignored his points as if he hadn’t made them at all.
Here’s what I’ve observed from you thus far: You avoid engaging with anyone’s argument in full – addressing only cherry-picked fragments – and then act oblivious, as if no one provided you with solid reasoning for their POV.
To be blunt, I think you’re trolling us.