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Am I the only one left??
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The OT is ripe with continuity errors that Lucas simply explains away with 'point of view', yet most don't care because they 'grew up with it'. Now that the PT has them, it's pitch forks and torches.
As for Vader turning on the Emperor, why bother at that point? Vader was just as much to blame for his lot in life as the Emperor was. The Emperor was all that he had left and all that he had to help 'keep the peace' in the galaxy. If he kills the Emperor, he is all alone, as Luke has told him he won't join him. Why kill the only person you have left, again?
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The only thing I can't explain is 'Obi-Wan once thought as you do'. That one, you got me on.
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Luke came so close to turning to the Dark Side and what was the GIANT momentous occasion that would have brought that upon? He was going to kill the Emperor in cold blood and kill his father because he threatened his sister. Anakin went to the Dark Side because the Jedi attempted to kill his 'father figure' in cold blood and in his mind, were holding back knowledge that would allow him to save his wife.
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Hardcode Legend: Yeah the OT has continuity errors, but you think its ripe with them? You are going to have to find alot errors to convince me of that.
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Originally posted by: Warbler
Hardcode Legend: Yeah the OT has continuity errors, but you think its ripe with them? You are going to have to find alot errors to convince me of that.
Well, the incestual topic I brought up before.
'No ship that small could make it this far out into space' or something to that effect, yet Vader has a similar ship and seems to make it back to civilization ok.
"Once down the path of darkness, forever will it consume you", yet Luke goes down the path of darkness 3 times, the Cave, his swing at the Emperor and his assualt on his father out of rage. Yet, somehow he shakes that all off?
Blast points? And who was that accurate?
"There is another", yet her life is meaningless enough for Yoda to let her die?
Boba Fett's Jedi abilities allow him to know the exact course the Falcon will be taking at a slow rate of speed, well enough to tell the Imperial Star Destroyers to go ahead, land, take control of the city, set up a garison and deal and ultimatium to Lando Calrissian.
Even if this isn't so, even if they arrived seconds before Han did, they seemed to work it all out pretty quickly cause in a matter of seconds, the Bespin planes go from shooting down the Falcon, to helping it land and Lando is able to meet them on the landing platform, all in a span of about 40 seconds. In that 40 second span, all the Imperial Troops are able to hide, so Han and Leia don't see them. Not only that, but they don't see the troop transports that would have been needed to bring the troops down to the city in the clouds, which would have had to have flown right past them to fit the above time table.
Some WTF stuff:
Tank went to the Academy, did he die? Where did Tank go?
If a door is magnetically sealed, wouldn't it attract all the metal waste in the trash compactor?
How many Sandpeople did you see walking the way Obi-Wan says they did?
5 X-Wing's and a Corellian don't dare take their chances against the Dark Lord of the Sith, who is the strongest opponent to the Rebellion. Of course not, he's only drifting into space all by himself. Don't worry about it, let's get back and party.
Why does Chewy need a protocol droid while in a detention cell, and for that matter, why let him put it back together in the spare time? I've known people that have worked in prisons, and not too often do they give them things they can swing at you. Han can't get a bed with legs, but Chewy can tinker around with a droid in his spare time.
It's 2:30 and that's all I could come up with. I can try more if you like later on.
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Star Wars is a part of who I am and not just a film for me. It was a way of being. It has been a reminder of how to live my life.
Dude...seriously...you are WAAAAAAAAAAY too wrapped up in this. Don't get me wrong....it's not bad. There are worse things to be so obsessed with than Star Wars...you could be shooting up heroin.
To console you, I will share my feelings on the state of Star Wars....
I chuck the whole SW mess up to this one statement: Lucas is a schmuck who blew the opportunity of a lifetime. His name could have been right up there next to Tolkien as one of the greatest storytellers of the modern age and he blew the whole thing by not putting in the effort it deserved.
Star Wars is the greatest missed opportunity ever.
Disheartening? Yes.
But you know what? There is some storyteller out there right now who is going to learn from Lucas' mistakes and that person is going to create the most wonderous story ever told. I have no idea what it will be, but I'm sure it will be great....and that will be worth waiting for.
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But I think that one of the "greatest storytellers of the modern age" would be someone more like Quentin Tarantino, Chuck Palahniuk or even Kevin Smith. Darren Aronofsky has written some great movies aswell, but I think it's more his filmstyle that makes them great and not the actual story. Pi would be a boring book to read, but it was a genius movie to watch. Chuck Palahniuk writes some of the greatest books ever. Survivor being my favorite of them.
And I don't really think anyone will ever create the "most wonderous story ever told." I mean, to do that, it would have to be something so good that everyone in the world (or at least everyone who's watched/read it) would like. That's impossible to do, because everyone's opinions are so different...
Though, I do agree that future writers can learn from Lucas' mistakes.
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Originally posted by: Jaster Mareel
Personally, I find Tolkien to be boring. He spends an entire chapter describing what a forest looks like. I was never able to finnish FotR, and I never even started on the other books. I really enjoyed the movies though.
But I think that one of the "greatest storytellers of the modern age" would be someone more like Quentin Tarantino, Chuck Palahniuk or even Kevin Smith. Darren Aronofsky has written some great movies aswell, but I think it's more his filmstyle that makes them great and not the actual story. Pi would be a boring book to read, but it was a genius movie to watch. Chuck Palahniuk writes some of the greatest books ever. Survivor being my favorite of them.
And I don't really think anyone will ever create the "most wonderous story ever told." I mean, to do that, it would have to be something so good that everyone in the world (or at least everyone who's watched/read it) would like. That's impossible to do, because everyone's opinions are so different...
Though, I do agree that future writers can learn from Lucas' mistakes.
I think that it is possible to create the "most wonderous story ever told". Just very, very, very improbable and, would be really hard to accomplish. Also, it would be hard to keep a lock on the story with the internet and, all. Personally, I feel that Star Wars would have been better had Lucas never been involved with Indiana Jones.
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Originally posted by: Hardcore LegendQuote
Originally posted by: Warbler
Hardcode Legend: Yeah the OT has continuity errors, but you think its ripe with them? You are going to have to find alot errors to convince me of that.
Well, the incestual topic I brought up before.
'No ship that small could make it this far out into space' or something to that effect, yet Vader has a similar ship and seems to make it back to civilization ok.
The issue is that the TIE fighter has no light speed engines, making it nearly impossible for the one ship to plod its way to the middle of no where. In the EU it says something like he goes into a state of meditation to survive the trip...
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"Once down the path of darkness, forever will it consume you", yet Luke goes down the path of darkness 3 times, the Cave, his swing at the Emperor and his assualt on his father out of rage. Yet, somehow he shakes that all off?
i think one could easily diferintiate between heading down the dark path and slipping up 3 times. Lets look at it with different words substituting the word sin for dark side. Even great men make mistakes and sin from time to time, but that is very different from actively participating in sin, aka selling drugs, cheating on you spouse, etc.
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Blast points? And who was that accurate?
Thats a good one, i suppose that you are refering to the acuracy of the storm troopers when whiping out the jawas, yet they can hit the broad side of barn in combat... Chalk that one up to movie nonsense all bad guys everywhere have bad aim when shooting at the main characters..
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"There is another", yet her life is meaningless enough for Yoda to let her die?
when does yoda ever say let her die?
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Boba Fett's Jedi abilities allow him to know the exact course the Falcon will be taking at a slow rate of speed, well enough to tell the Imperial Star Destroyers to go ahead, land, take control of the city, set up a garison and deal and ultimatium to Lando Calrissian.
Even if this isn't so, even if they arrived seconds before Han did, they seemed to work it all out pretty quickly cause in a matter of seconds, the Bespin planes go from shooting down the Falcon, to helping it land and Lando is able to meet them on the landing platform, all in a span of about 40 seconds. In that 40 second span, all the Imperial Troops are able to hide, so Han and Leia don't see them. Not only that, but they don't see the troop transports that would have been needed to bring the troops down to the city in the clouds, which would have had to have flown right past them to fit the above time table.
1. its not like vader has to set up a garrison to take control, he simply has to make contact and say " listen here mr. colt 45, you either do as i say or i will level you little city. Deal?" When you can jump in a few star distroyer that are mostlikely in orbit some where else in the lando system you dont need to physically take over.
2. planets are big, and one can land on them without landing in the exact city you need to be in. Troops could have been moving all around the city from other cities all while han and leia are arguing in the room. Houston has two major air ports, one near downtown and one on the northside you could land at one and never see whats going on in the other.
3. You may have a point with the tracking of the falcon, i dont know how he did it. Any one else???
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Some WTF stuff:
1.Tank went to the Academy, did he die? Where did Tank go?
2.If a door is magnetically sealed, wouldn't it attract all the metal waste in the trash compactor?
3.How many Sandpeople did you see walking the way Obi-Wan says they did?
4.5 X-Wing's and a Corellian don't dare take their chances against the Dark Lord of the Sith, who is the strongest opponent to the Rebellion. Of course not, he's only drifting into space all by himself. Don't worry about it, let's get back and party.
5.Why does Chewy need a protocol droid while in a detention cell, and for that matter, why let him put it back together in the spare time? I've known people that have worked in prisons, and not too often do they give them things they can swing at you. Han can't get a bed with legs, but Chewy can tinker around with a droid in his spare time.
1. I have no idea what you are talking about
2. Speakers are also magnetized, but they can be sealed so that they wont effect your television screen or you computer moniter. I imagine that the same thing could happen with the door, since the last thing you want is to have to send some one in there to scrap off the crap that get stuck to the door. A better question would be why is there some sort of create in the garabage dump.
3. How many sand people do you see walking anywhere besides when they are looting?
4. maybe they assumed he is died whether it be by the shot that han hit him with or by the huge explosion of the death star.
5. Good point, more movie misshandling of real life facts...
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It's 2:30 and that's all I could come up with. I can try more if you like later on.
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Originally posted by: KingsamaQuote
Originally posted by: Hardcore LegendQuote
Originally posted by: Warbler
Hardcode Legend: Yeah the OT has continuity errors, but you think its ripe with them? You are going to have to find alot errors to convince me of that.
Well, the incestual topic I brought up before.
'No ship that small could make it this far out into space' or something to that effect, yet Vader has a similar ship and seems to make it back to civilization ok.
The issue is that the TIE fighter has no light speed engines, making it nearly impossible for the one ship to plod its way to the middle of no where. In the EU it says something like he goes into a state of meditation to survive the trip...
The EU doesn't count in most instances. I mean, it works in the absense of a real definition or excuse, but really...it's just a plot hole that is left unplugged. If the line about ships that small wasn't in the film, you could leave the mystery of Vader getting back. Unfortunately, you say that in the Star Wars universe, it's impossible and then expect us to believe he did it that way.
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"Once down the path of darkness, forever will it consume you", yet Luke goes down the path of darkness 3 times, the Cave, his swing at the Emperor and his assualt on his father out of rage. Yet, somehow he shakes that all off?
Quote
i think one could easily diferintiate between heading down the dark path and slipping up 3 times. Lets look at it with different words substituting the word sin for dark side. Even great men make mistakes and sin from time to time, but that is very different from actively participating in sin, aka selling drugs, cheating on you spouse, etc.
We aren't talking about normal people, in your analogy the Jedi would be priests, and if a priests sins 3 times on such an epic scale, he wouldn't be a priest much longer. Unless he's Catholic.
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"There is another", yet her life is meaningless enough for Yoda to let her die?
Quote
when does yoda ever say let her die?
Yoda tells Luke to let Leia die, if he values her cause. If he let's her die, the 'other' is no longer there. Thus its a self-fullfilling prophecy. By Luke going, it preserves 'the other'. If he stays, there is no other. It's a conundrum.
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Boba Fett's Jedi abilities allow him to know the exact course the Falcon will be taking at a slow rate of speed, well enough to tell the Imperial Star Destroyers to go ahead, land, take control of the city, set up a garison and deal and ultimatium to Lando Calrissian.
Even if this isn't so, even if they arrived seconds before Han did, they seemed to work it all out pretty quickly cause in a matter of seconds, the Bespin planes go from shooting down the Falcon, to helping it land and Lando is able to meet them on the landing platform, all in a span of about 40 seconds. In that 40 second span, all the Imperial Troops are able to hide, so Han and Leia don't see them. Not only that, but they don't see the troop transports that would have been needed to bring the troops down to the city in the clouds, which would have had to have flown right past them to fit the above time table.
Quote
1. its not like vader has to set up a garrison to take control, he simply has to make contact and say " listen here mr. colt 45, you either do as i say or i will level you little city. Deal?" When you can jump in a few star distroyer that are mostlikely in orbit some where else in the lando system you dont need to physically take over.
2. planets are big, and one can land on them without landing in the exact city you need to be in. Troops could have been moving all around the city from other cities all while han and leia are arguing in the room. Houston has two major air ports, one near downtown and one on the northside you could land at one and never see whats going on in the other.
I was under the impression that the city in the clouds was the only city on the planet, and that the rest of the planet was gas mining. Lando says the Empire arrived just before they got there. Thus, for the Bespin pod-planes to be shooting at Han and Leia and then to stop in a less than a minute real-time, it means atleast an Imperial Shuttle would have to land in the city, which is in view of the Falcon. The reason I say this, is that in order for Vader to talk to Lando, and then Lando appear on the docking bay, it would have to cut it close as well. And as they say about the Falcon, no ship that small has a cloaking device. Either Lando is lying, or Han and Chewie are blind.
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Some WTF stuff:
1.Tank went to the Academy, did he die? Where did Tank go?
2.If a door is magnetically sealed, wouldn't it attract all the metal waste in the trash compactor?
3.How many Sandpeople did you see walking the way Obi-Wan says they did?
4.5 X-Wing's and a Corellian don't dare take their chances against the Dark Lord of the Sith, who is the strongest opponent to the Rebellion. Of course not, he's only drifting into space all by himself. Don't worry about it, let's get back and party.
5.Why does Chewy need a protocol droid while in a detention cell, and for that matter, why let him put it back together in the spare time? I've known people that have worked in prisons, and not too often do they give them things they can swing at you. Han can't get a bed with legs, but Chewy can tinker around with a droid in his spare time.
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1. I have no idea what you are talking about
"You said that when Tank and Biggs left........."
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2. Speakers are also magnetized, but they can be sealed so that they wont effect your television screen or you computer moniter. I imagine that the same thing could happen with the door, since the last thing you want is to have to send some one in there to scrap off the crap that get stuck to the door. A better question would be why is there some sort of create in the garabage dump.
If I shoot a laser at my speaker, my speaker blows up. Did the door blow up?
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4. maybe they assumed he is died whether it be by the shot that han hit him with or by the huge explosion of the death star.
They couldn't see him on their radar?
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The EU doesn't count in most instances. I mean, it works in the absense of a real definition or excuse, but really...it's just a plot hole that is left unplugged. If the line about ships that small wasn't in the film, you could leave the mystery of Vader getting back. Unfortunately, you say that in the Star Wars universe, it's impossible and then expect us to believe he did it that way.
i said nearly impossible and used it as a literary devise to show how hard it would be for a regular person to hop in a regular craft and float into deep space. Further more i wasnt stating that the EU was right, just offered it as a possible explination. Is it that hard to buy that a sith lord could go into some sort of meditative state in which he could survive with out food and water longer than a normal person?
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"Once down the path of darkness, forever will it consume you", yet Luke goes down the path of darkness 3 times, the Cave, his swing at the Emperor and his assualt on his father out of rage. Yet, somehow he shakes that all off?
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i think one could easily diferintiate between heading down the dark path and slipping up 3 times. Lets look at it with different words substituting the word sin for dark side. Even great men make mistakes and sin from time to time, but that is very different from actively participating in sin, aka selling drugs, cheating on you spouse, etc.
We aren't talking about normal people, in your analogy the Jedi would be priests, and if a priests sins 3 times on such an epic scale, he wouldn't be a priest much longer. Unless he's Catholic.
haha catholic priest.
here is the whole quote
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YODA: Run! Yes. A Jedi's strength flows from the Force. But beware of
the dark side. Anger...fear...aggression. The dark side of the Force
are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you
start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny,
consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice.
it says start down, the dark path, maybe it is just semantics, but i think that one could easily deferintiate between starting down a path and slipping up. Priest, monks, shamans, etc. slip up all the time, but that in my mind is a not the same as embrassing the negactive and wandering down its path.
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"There is another", yet her life is meaningless enough for Yoda to let her die?
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when does yoda ever say let her die?
Yoda tells Luke to let Leia die, if he values her cause. If he let's her die, the 'other' is no longer there. Thus its a self-fullfilling prophecy. By Luke going, it preserves 'the other'. If he stays, there is no other. It's a conundrum.
here is the whole scene yoda never says let her die, only that luke needs to complete his training and ben says that not even yoda can see there fate.
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In the bright lights of the fighter, Luke loads a heavy
case into the belly of the ship. Artoo sits on top of the
X-wing, settling down into his cubbyhole. Yoda stands nearby
on a log.
YODA: Luke! You must complete the training.
LUKE: I can't keep the vision out of my head. They're my friends. I've
got to help them.
YODA: You must not go!
LUKE: But Han and Leia will die if I don't.
BEN'S VOICE: You don't know that.
Luke looks toward the voice in amazement. Ben has
materialized as a real, slightly shimmering image near Yoda.
The power of his presence stops Luke.
BEN: Even Yoda cannot see their fate.
LUKE: But I can help them! I feel the Force!
BEN: But you cannot control it. This is a dangerous time for you, when
you will be tempted by the dark side of the Force.
YODA: Yes, yes. To Obi-Wan you listen. The cave. Remember your failure
at the cave!
LUKE: But I've learned so much since then. Master Yoda, I promise to
return and finish what I've begun. You have my word.
BEN: It is you and your abilities the Emperor wants. that is why your
friends are made to suffer.
LUKE: And that is why I have to go.
BEN: Luke, I don't want to lose you to the Emperor the way I lost
Vader.
LUKE: You won't.
YODA: Stopped they must be. On this depends. Only a fully trained Jedi
Knight with the Force as his ally will conquer Vader and his Emperor.
If you end your training now, if you choose the quick and easy path,
as Vader did, you will become an agent of evil.
BEN: Patience.
LUKE: And sacrifice Han and Leia?
YODA: If you honor what they fight for...yes!
Luke is in great anguish. He struggles with the dilemma, a
battle raging in his mind.
BEN: If you choose to face Vader, you will do it alone. I cannot
interfere.
LUKE: I understand. (he moves to his X-wing) Artoo, fire up the
converters.
Artoo whistles a happy reply.
BEN: Luke, don't give in to hate -- that leads to the dark side.
Luke nods and climbs into his ship.
YODA: Strong is Vader. Mind what you have learned. Save you it can.
LUKE: I will. And I'll return. I promise.
Artoo closes the cockpit. Ben and Yoda stand watching as
the roar of the engines and the wind engulf them.
YODA: (sighs) Told you, I did. Reckless is he. Now matters are worse.
BEN: That boy is our last hope.
YODA: (looks up) No. There is another.
EXTERIOR: SPACE -- PLANET DAGOBAH
Luke's tiny X-wing rockets away from the green planet of
Dagobah and off into space.
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Boba Fett's Jedi abilities allow him to know the exact course the Falcon will be taking at a slow rate of speed, well enough to tell the Imperial Star Destroyers to go ahead, land, take control of the city, set up a garison and deal and ultimatium to Lando Calrissian.
Even if this isn't so, even if they arrived seconds before Han did, they seemed to work it all out pretty quickly cause in a matter of seconds, the Bespin planes go from shooting down the Falcon, to helping it land and Lando is able to meet them on the landing platform, all in a span of about 40 seconds. In that 40 second span, all the Imperial Troops are able to hide, so Han and Leia don't see them. Not only that, but they don't see the troop transports that would have been needed to bring the troops down to the city in the clouds, which would have had to have flown right past them to fit the above time table.
Quote
1. its not like vader has to set up a garrison to take control, he simply has to make contact and say " listen here mr. colt 45, you either do as i say or i will level you little city. Deal?" When you can jump in a few star distroyer that are mostlikely in orbit some where else in the lando system you dont need to physically take over.
2. planets are big, and one can land on them without landing in the exact city you need to be in. Troops could have been moving all around the city from other cities all while han and leia are arguing in the room. Houston has two major air ports, one near downtown and one on the northside you could land at one and never see whats going on in the other.
I was under the impression that the city in the clouds was the only city on the planet, and that the rest of the planet was gas mining. Lando says the Empire arrived just before they got there. Thus,
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LUKE: And sacrifice Han and Leia?
YODA: If you honor what they fight for...yes!
That's called sacraficing.
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it says start down, the dark path, maybe it is just semantics, but i think that one could easily deferintiate between starting down a path and slipping up. Priest, monks, shamans, etc. slip up all the time, but that in my mind is a not the same as embrassing the negactive and wandering down its path.
I'd say attempting to kill someone out of anger 3 times isn't slipping up, it's embracing your anger, which is embracing the dark side. He was only stopped once on his own, he was successful in the cave and he was stopped by Vader on the DSII.
As for Bespin, You see the city when they fly in, it is in plain view. Lando says that they arrived right before they did. The timeline and dialogue doesn't allow for anything else but a plot loophole.
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Originally posted by: Hardcore Legend
These quotes are getting too long.
amen to that
QuoteQuote
LUKE: And sacrifice Han and Leia?
YODA: If you honor what they fight for...yes!
That's called sacraficing.
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"There is another", yet her life is meaningless enough for Yoda to let her die?
sacrificing, yes. declaring her life meaningless no. Juest like in AotC where obi tells ani to do as padme would do, here yoda is telling luke to look towards the greater good and to serve it.
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it says start down, the dark path, maybe it is just semantics, but i think that one could easily deferintiate between starting down a path and slipping up. Priest, monks, shamans, etc. slip up all the time, but that in my mind is a not the same as embrassing the negactive and wandering down its path.
I'd say attempting to kill someone out of anger 3 times isn't slipping up, it's embracing your anger, which is embracing the dark side. He was only stopped once on his own, he was successful in the cave and he was stopped by Vader on the DSII.
i would say that anyone would do the same, imagine if you had the scurg of the universe in front of you responsible for killing millions, you would take an angery swipe too. Now slaughtering a village of people or children embracing it, taking a shot at mr. genoside is a bit different.
As for Bespin, You see the city when they fly in, it is in plain view. Lando says that they arrived right before they did. The timeline and dialogue doesn't allow for anything else but a plot loophole.
so what you are saying is that when han is getting shot at in the clouds and then given the run around, also in the clouds he has the time or the presences of mind to search the horizen for ships???
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Originally posted by: Kingsamasacrificing, yes. declaring her life meaningless no. Juest like in AotC where obi tells ani to do as padme would do, here yoda is telling luke to look towards the greater good and to serve it.
But Obi Wan doesn't secretly have Padme in his pocket as his next apprentice.
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i would say that anyone would do the same, imagine if you had the scurg of the universe in front of you responsible for killing millions, you would take an angery swipe too.
Saying anyone would do the same doesn't hold any weight, because the Jedi are supposed to be better than that. Sith use their emotions for their power. Thus, by acting out of a carnage emotion, Luke has begun his decent.
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so what you are saying is that when han is getting shot at in the clouds and then given the run around, also in the clouds he has the time or the presences of mind to search the horizen for ships???
If TIE Fighters and Star Destoyers come up on the radar, I would think an Imperial Shuttle would as well. Not to mention SLAVE I. Now, maybe SLAVE I had a cloaking device, but I never heard about it.
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Then again, there was a friggin' planet right there called Yavin. Who's to say he couldn't have landed there and called in a pick-up? The rebel base was one building on the 4th moon of this planet. I think he had plenty of options to get un-stranded.
Point is, Lucas didn't go all Star Trek on us by explaining this stuff in the movie, wasting precious screen time. Supplemental writings were licensed and approved by Lucasfilm to expand on the universe beyond what we're given in the (now six) movies. But, Lucas DID go all Star Trek on us with the Prequels as the originator of this thread laments.
Lucas made Star Wars as a young, hungry artist with something to prove. Lucas made Empire from behind the scenes, trying to build an Empire of his own behind the scenes. He had to prove he wasn't a one-hit wonder still. He made ROTJ more hands-on than the credits suggest, and he had become quite comfortable with himself. He was already getting lazy and it showed. Then he made Temple of Doom, and Howard the Duck. Then Spielberg and Ford made damn sure the next Indiana Jones outing wasn't going to tarnish their reputations. Then ten years passed and Lucas got richer and richer off his old works and ILM. Then he set out to make the prequels as an older, richer, demigod in Hollywood, all while pretending to be the anti-Hollywood.
What we were given, reflects the man he's become.
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In the words of Pink Floyd:
"He's just the same as all the rest / He's not the worst, and he's not the best."
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Anyway, Digital Man: Vader could not land on Yavin because it is a gas giant. But he could easily land on one of the other moons of the planet, or on another planet in the starsystem.
