Politics 2: Electric Boogaloo — Page 371

Warbler said:

CatBus said:

Warbler said:

DominicCobb said:

I assume the meaning is that even Michelle Obama, descendant of slaves, was benefiting from racism insofar as the house she was living in was built by slaves.

Maybe, but what you want to do? Knock down a perfectly usable White House and waste money building a new one, just so we can say the President no longer lives in a house built by slaves? The White House was built by slaves. It was wrong, it was racist, it was a crime. But it is too late to reverse it. The While House is already built. Nothing can undo the fact that it was built by slaves. The slaves that built it are long dead, there is no way to help them, there is nothing to do that will do any of them any good. Make sure it is remembered how the White House was built, build a monument to the slave that built there. Put up a plaque to remember it. But it is done and can’t be undone unless someone invents a time machine.

The literal level isn’t where the useful discussion is. It’s not about a physical structure per se, it’s about a nation. It’s not about living in a house per se, it’s about benefiting from past injustice. So – to refrain from the original post, what is she (and what are we) going to do about that?

I don’t know that anything can be done. Unless you have a time machine, you can’t change the past(even if you did have one, there are a whole slew of problems with trying to alter history).

You’re still looking at it very literally. The slavery happened and can’t be undone. The lynching and redlining happened and can’t be undone. But the current injustices that are derived from these things? Those can be undone. The trouble is that the current injustices are much more subtle, institutional things, and perpetuated by largely well-meaning people with no overt racial animus. Nevertheless that’s our responsibility, to wipe out the legacy of slavery, since the slavery itself was already wiped out by previous generations.

EDIT: Your questions about job interviews are actually a great example of how we do this today.

Warbler said:

CatBus said:

Warbler said:

CatBus said:

Warbler said:

DominicCobb said:

I assume the meaning is that even Michelle Obama, descendant of slaves, was benefiting from racism insofar as the house she was living in was built by slaves.

Maybe, but what you want to do? Knock down a perfectly usable White House and waste money building a new one, just so we can say the President no longer lives in a house built by slaves? The White House was built by slaves. It was wrong, it was racist, it was a crime. But it is too late to reverse it. The While House is already built. Nothing can undo the fact that it was built by slaves. The slaves that built it are long dead, there is no way to help them, there is nothing to do that will do any of them any good. Make sure it is remembered how the White House was built, build a monument to the slave that built there. Put up a plaque to remember it. But it is done and can’t be undone unless someone invents a time machine.

The literal level isn’t where the useful discussion is. It’s not about a physical structure per se, it’s about a nation. It’s not about living in a house per se, it’s about benefiting from past injustice. So – to refrain from the original post, what is she (and what are we) going to do about that?

I don’t know that anything can be done. Unless you have a time machine, you can’t change the past(even if you did have one, there are a whole slew of problems with trying to alter history).

You’re still looking at it very literally. The slavery happened and can’t be undone. The lynching and redlining happened and can’t be undone. But the current injustices that are derived from these things? Those can be undone. The trouble is that the current injustices are much more subtle, institutional things, and perpetuated by largely well-meaning people with no racial animus. Nevertheless that’s our responsibility, to wipe out the legacy of slavery, since the slavery itself was already wiped out by previous generations.

What do you mean by “current injustices that are derived from these things?” How do you wipe out the legacy of slavery?

Dang, stealth edit fail. Your questions about job interviews are a great example about how people can do this. Public school funding equality issues are another (many southern schools are still segregated, for the most part – the white kids just switched to private schools). Sentencing/prison reform. Anywhere you look really, there’s something to be done. The legacy of slavery is everywhere. In other words, embrace the dark side and become a SJW 😉

An awful lot of great, historical stuff was built by slaves. Rome, the pyramids, etc. And what about the working conditions of people who built the Golden Gate bridge? Of course we should remember all of that, but I’m not sure that such examples continue to taint us somehow. Perhaps as symbolism, I’d buy that. But I don’t think I’m Euro-privileged when I walk on the pyramids… my privileges as a white male in America are much more concrete than that and have vanishingly little to do with the fact that slaves built the pyramids.

CatBus said:

(many southern schools are still segregated, for the most part – the white kids just switched to private schools).

Interesting. I thought the consensus was that northern, more urban schools were actually more segregated than the southern ones.

I live in the south and I’d say that the schools are fairly well integrated. But I’m just one dummy on the Internet.

yhwx said:

CatBus said:

(many southern schools are still segregated, for the most part – the white kids just switched to private schools).

Interesting. I thought the consensus was that northern, more urban schools were actually more segregated than the southern ones.

I live in the south and I’d say that the schools are fairly well integrated. But I’m just one dummy on the Internet.

I’m a southerner currently in high school (my senior year begins tomorrow) and my school is pretty integrated*, but I have friends all over the state whose schools have very few minorities at all. Then again, my town might just have more minorities than theirs, idk.

*Some activities, such as homecoming court voting, are still bafflingly segregated.

Warbler said:

public school segregation is unconstitutional. As for white kids going to private schools, I am not sure what can be done about that. This is America, if you have enough money amd want to send your kids to private school, you can.

Sure, but you can make sure public schools have the resources to provide an adequate education. The trick is that wherever most of the white kids go to private schools, the (disproportionately minority) public school system can, and does, go to hell from lack of funding.

Also, my experience is that school segregation happens everywhere as a function of housing segregation, which is also a serious issue. But in some places, the school segregation is out of proportion with the housing segregation, which is what I was talking about. And that’s not even considering places like where I went to school, where the school was integrated, but the individual classrooms were not.

yhwx said:

Warbler said:

yhwx said:

https://twitter.com/gte/status/896439867151986690

The complacency, before and after the election, is depressing. It speaks to an educated populace that was taught propaganda not history.

https://twitter.com/gte/status/896453771697545217

Let’s never again say, “That’s not America”. Because it is. And has always been. Friends, get your shit together. You live a fantasy.

Whenever I see this sentiment, I get annoyed. It’s not that I really strongly disagree, I’m just annoyed.

Thoughts?

I think the guy has no idea what America is.

Counter-argument:

This is America. It’s the same country that had slavery and lynching and segregation. The United States has done plenty of racist things in its history. Therefore, that becomes the main thing that America is.

Sorry to go full-on Frevious, but it’s an argument with reason. I just feel annoyed by it, even though it’s probably true.

Also, for the record, he’s Canadian.

Reposting this. Seemed like it got lost in the shuffle.

Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

An awful lot of great, historical stuff was built by slaves. Rome, the pyramids, etc. And what about the working conditions of people who built the Golden Gate bridge? Of course we should remember all of that, but I’m not sure that such examples continue to taint us somehow. Perhaps as symbolism, I’d buy that. But I don’t think I’m Euro-privileged when I walk on the pyramids… my privileges as a white male in America are much more concrete than that and have vanishingly little to do with the fact that slaves built the pyramids.

Actually slaves building the pyramids is a misconception created by the ancient Greeks that’s been reinforced by the movies.
https://www.seeker.com/slaves-didnt-build-pyramids-egypt-1764995593.html

As for the White House, the things that have happened there since it was built ought to balance out the negatives. Seriously, was anyone even harping on this before Obama? The ugly comments I saw on social media about the restoration work being done on the mansion speak volumes.

This is interesting.

When you’re marching around in public as part of a hate group, people can widely distribute photos of you and ID you via crowdsourcing. First off, a caution–be damned sure about someone’s identity before you tag them with something like this, and secondly, if you actually can positively identify any of these white supremacists, please do. They wanted to tell the whole world what they thought, so it seems proper that the parts of the world closest to them shouldn’t be left out of knowing what they think.

I don’t know what’s more precious–that Cole White lost his job at Top Dog, LLC (ohh, so sorry, it turns out “assclown” is not a legally protected class!), or that Peter Cvjetanovic is now making the media rounds saying “that’s not me in those super-clear photos!” (when it definitely is – it reminds me of when Richard Spencer recently denied he was Richard Spencer because he was too delicate of a snowflake to cope with being disliked in public). It’s like there’s consequences or something. I wonder if he’s also going to deny that’s him in those (not rally-related) photos with US Senator Dean Heller, or vice-versa.

More consequences (preferably law-enforcement-style consequences, but I’m not picky) are needed to make sure this shit gets shut down right now. Or at least make the Klansmen have to wear their goofy hoods again.

Warbler said:

suspiciouscoffee said:

*Some activities, such as homecoming court voting, are still bafflingly segregated.

at a public school? I can’t believe that is allowed. If it was, someone would sued it out of existence a long time ago.

Obviously not, since it’s still happening.

Warbler said:

CatBus said:

Warbler said:

public school segregation is unconstitutional. As for white kids going to private schools, I am not sure what can be done about that. This is America, if you have enough money amd want to send your kids to private school, you can.

Sure, but you can make sure public schools have the resources to provide an adequate education. The trick is that wherever most of the white kids go to private schools, the (disproportionately minority) public school system can, and does, go to hell from lack of funding.

well of course all public schools need to be adequately funded. You will get no argument from me on that.

Also, my experience is that school segregation happens everywhere as a function of housing segregation,

I pretty sure that housing segregation is not allowed under the civil rights act. People have the right to live where they want regardless of skin color, assuming they can afford to live in said place.

which is also a serious issue. But in some places, the school segregation is out of proportion with the housing segregation, which is what I was talking about.

again school segregation is unconstitutional.

It is, but it doesn’t stop school systems from doing it.

Back in the 70s and 80s, schools were required to make sure that they were racially balanced. This required busing in some students from wider distances. Some parents didn’t like this, and the courts ruled that schools were integrated enough, so it wasn’t required anymore.

And that’s not even considering places like where I went to school, where the school was integrated, but the individual classrooms were not.

? Please explain.

I’m assuming the school would be more or less balanced racially, but individual classrooms would be almost all white or all black.

Also how is this not sued out of existence?

Not everything bad is sued out of existence.

Warbler said:

then why hasn’t someone sued it out of existence?

That’s not how the world works. It isn’t fair. Not everything bad has been sued out of existence.

Warbler said:

suspiciouscoffee said:

*Some activities, such as homecoming court voting, are still bafflingly segregated.

at a public school? I can’t believe that is allowed. If it was, someone would sued it out of existence a long time ago.

No one has tried to sue. A petition was brought to the school board last year, but I don’t think it went anywhere. If nothing’s changed this year, I’ll try to organize a boycott of the vote. I’d link to some articles about it, but I don’t feel like giving away my exact location.