Politics 2: Electric Boogaloo — Page 367

Warbler said:

So I shouldn’t be concerned at all that if I hire this person, she is going to need a leave of absence soon?

You should show the same amount of concern as you do with your other candidates may need to do this. Husbands with eight-month-pregnant wives, lesbian moms with eight-month-pregnant wives. Dive right on in to those deeply personal questions. Er, maybe no.

There is a large unfinished hotel in Pyongyang. Bit of a fixer-upper. Maybe Trump can buy it?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryugyong_Hotel

Warbler said:

You mean put together a team that is half black, half white, half male, half female?

No, identity doesn’t predict bias. If you’ve got an acknowledged anti-Latino bias, include someone who definitely doesn’t, Latino or not. If the team ends up being all white men, that’s a pretty good warning sign you didn’t do a very good job, but it’s technically possible.

What do you mean by touched by racism?

Meaning you’ve got biases that have been installed into you by decades of exposure to racist media, housing policies, schools, family, friends, etc. It’s a nice way of saying you’re racist, but using the broad definition that includes pretty much all Americans, and doesn’t mean you’re actively trying to perpetuate these things.

Warbler said:

Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

Warbler said:

Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

Warbler said:

Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

darthrush said:

Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

Warbler said:

For those that don’t like the term colorblind:

If I were the boss of a company looking to hire an accountant, what would be wrong in being colorblind in my choice?

Nothing, it would be great. But how exactly are you going to achieve that?

By not being racist? Deciding to analyze them based upon their merit?

And this is verified how?

what do you mean?

I said I’d bail out of this discussion, but I’ll reiterate my point just this one time…

The whole “I’m color-blind” thing is supposedly an answer to charges of racism. But it’s circular logic. Being “not racist” and being “color-blind” is the same thing. I can say that I’m not racist, or I can say that I’m color-blind, but why should someone who has been oppressed believe me – just because I say so? I might not even know, because a lot of such things are subconscious. Do you think the Google guy who wrote the manifesto is color-blind? I bet he thinks he is.

Also, if I’m the CEO of some giant company, I may have to delegate the hiring process to senior employees below me. Even if I honestly want the hiring process to be “color-blind”, how am I going to guarantee that happens? How can I verify that my employees acted in a color-blind way? By accepting that it’s true if they say so? There generally need to be processes in place to ensure it is systemic and verifiable. Otherwise nobody would have any reason to believe it - it’s just words. It also wouldn’t hold up in court.

Being color-blind is an awesome goal, but again, just claiming that it’s so, isn’t compelling at all.

So just what the heck would you suggest then?

That was my question to you! I didn’t claim to be the expert.

Well below you claim to be a more of an expert than I am.

I most certainly did not. Please tell me where I stated that. I have no idea if I am more expert than you. I was merely stating my background.

That said, I have served over the past year as my department’s equal opportunity representative in hiring of faculty. For this, I had to go through a lot of training. So I know SOME things about the subject - and, like most things, the more you know, the more you realize you don’t know.

You say there’s not much we can do except try the best we can – well that’s NOT TRUE at all. There is a LOT that can and is being done. And it starts by educating oneself on potential sources of hidden bias, and trying to avoid them. One simple example of something to be wary of, is trying to decide how well a candidate will “fit in”. That is pervasive in many hiring situations, and often leads to racial and gender bias, without the interviewers even realizing it.

So I shouldn’t worry about how well the applicant would fit in with the others?

I didn’t say that either. I said that it is something to be wary of. It is quite possible that years of hiring people who are perceived to “fit in” can lead to a homogenous group of people who only hire people like them. It’s something to actively watch for, not ignore.

Another is to replace the mindset of trying to ignore race/gender, with instead educating oneself about issues and situations that could arise in an interview.

other than the pregnant woman, what situations do you men?

Are the requirements/priorities for the position clearly identified beforehand? How are candidates going to be assessed - for instance, if a priority is “works well in a team”, it wouldn’t be wise to just go with a gut feeling. What if someone on the search committee is uncomfortable with what another search committee member said (happened once to us!) - is there any sort of understanding for how potential issues of bias can be raised and addressed within the committee?

Here’s an example of something we changed in our department: Hiring is a serious effort (pain-in-the-neck, actually), and we much prefer to hire people who are likely to stay. As a result, we had a habit of trying to second-guess which candidates we believed were likely to stay, and which were likely to leave after a few years. We learned that this can lead to bias, since it led to us preferring candidates with families (“grounded!”), candidates who would feel “at home” in the surrounding neighborhoods, etc.

Here’s another issue… where are you announcing the job opening? Some demographics are going to look in different resources than where we were listing. Furthermore, our failing to list a position in a certain periodical, can lead a potential candidate to believe we might not be welcoming to his/her type.

That is, actively trying to identify patterns ahead of time that can lead to bias, rather than trying to avoid the issue and assume that by being “blind”, it won’t happen. That leads to “winging it”… it’s better to be prepared. For a simple example, suppose a candidate shows up and she’s obviously eight months pregnant? What are you going to do? You should be prepared for that possibility, and many others.

So I shouldn’t be concerned at all that if I hire this person, she is going to need a leave of absence soon?

I didn’t say that either - but it does sound like you haven’t thought it out yet. That was the point - be prepared, don’t avoid the issue(s). You’re looking for pat, simple answers where there aren’t any.

You’re also putting a lot of words in my mouth, but that’s not really relevant.

Warbler said:

Meaning you’ve got biases that have been installed into you by decades of exposure to racist media, housing policies, schools, family, friends, etc. It’s a nice way of saying you’re racist, but using the broad definition that includes pretty much all Americans, and doesn’t mean you’re actively trying to perpetuate these things.

*sigh* 😐

Relevant.

yhwx said:

Warbler said:

Meaning you’ve got biases that have been installed into you by decades of exposure to racist media, housing policies, schools, family, friends, etc. It’s a nice way of saying you’re racist, but using the broad definition that includes pretty much all Americans, and doesn’t mean you’re actively trying to perpetuate these things.

*sigh* 😐

Relevant.

For Christ’s sake.

Warbler has shown nothing that would make you think he is racist and to assume that someone is racist without any evidence is just awful. Half of this race talk is just virtue signaling from the left and does nothing to help solve issues in America.

CatBus said:

Warbler said:

So I shouldn’t be concerned at all that if I hire this person, she is going to need a leave of absence soon?

You should show the same amount of concern as you do with your other candidates may need to do this. Husbands with eight-month-pregnant wives, lesbian moms with eight-month-pregnant wives. Dive right on in to those deeply personal questions. Er, maybe no.

This isn’t really a helpful answer. I applaud Warbler’s effort to learn on this topic, but this answer doesn’t really help to give him a better understanding of the situation. What should Warbler do? Ideally, the answer should be more specific than “Er, maybe no.”

The post is also weird on a writing-organizational level. Going straight from “Dive right on in to those deeply personal questions,” to “Er, maybe no.” is unclear and hard to understand. Those two are not great sentences.

darthrush said:

yhwx said:

Warbler said:

Meaning you’ve got biases that have been installed into you by decades of exposure to racist media, housing policies, schools, family, friends, etc. It’s a nice way of saying you’re racist, but using the broad definition that includes pretty much all Americans, and doesn’t mean you’re actively trying to perpetuate these things.

*sigh* 😐

Relevant.

For Christ’s sake.

Warbler has shown nothing that would make you think he is racist and to assume that someone is racist without any evidence is just awful. Half of this race talk is just virtue signaling from the left and does nothing to help solve issues in America.

Umm, I think the link was intended to criticize CatBus for calling Warbler racist. The video points out that we are all capable of occasionally doing a racist act, but that doesn’t necessarily mean we are a racist person.

We all do racist things and we are all affected by racist things in culture. I don’t know where the threshold is for calling somebody racist, but I do think saying:

It’s a nice way of saying you’re racist, but using the broad definition that includes pretty much all Americans, and doesn’t mean you’re actively trying to perpetuate these things.

is counter-productive to the argument CatBus was making.

And no, I haven’t changed any of my positions of I have argued earlier. I just think that some points people are making here could be argued better.

Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

darthrush said:

yhwx said:

Warbler said:

Meaning you’ve got biases that have been installed into you by decades of exposure to racist media, housing policies, schools, family, friends, etc. It’s a nice way of saying you’re racist, but using the broad definition that includes pretty much all Americans, and doesn’t mean you’re actively trying to perpetuate these things.

*sigh* 😐

Relevant.

For Christ’s sake.

Warbler has shown nothing that would make you think he is racist and to assume that someone is racist without any evidence is just awful. Half of this race talk is just virtue signaling from the left and does nothing to help solve issues in America.

Umm, I think the link was intended to criticize CatBus for calling Warbler racist. The video points out that we are all capable of occasionally doing a racist act, but that doesn’t necessarily mean we are a racist person.

Thanks for the clear up. Catbus, my last message was directed at you and every other self righteous asshole from the left.

darthrush said:

Catbus, my last message was directed at you and every other self righteous asshole from the left.

Well that escalated quickly.

It’s why I dropped out last time!

yhwx said:

darthrush said:

Catbus, my last message was directed at you and every other self righteous asshole from the left.

Well that escalated quickly.

I’m sorry but I can’t take it when people treat others like these racist sinners who just have to repent from their racism that they can’t control. It’s pointless and shitty to think that you have the right to tell someone how to solve their probabale case of racism without any evidence.

Unrelated rant I intended to post a couple of days ago:

I don’t really like any of the political labels. You know, the words we all know — like “liberal,” “centrist,” “conservative” and many others. I’m not even a fan of the new #BernieBro buzzword “progressive.” While my views are certainly liberal, I wouldn’t call myself a “liberal.” It’s just not my kind of thing. It’s not that I have any problem with liberals or people who call themselves liberals, I just don’t like to call myself that—or any of the other political labels, for that matter.

If you want to call yourself an “unrelenting liberal,” a “consistent centrist,” a “proud conservative,” or even a “#BernieWouldHaveWon progressive,” by all means, go ahead. Just not me.

DominicCobb said:

This is the kind of thing I always talk about. No one wants to admit they’re wrong, no one likes to be less than perfect.

Everybody has biases. This is just true. The sooner we can all recognize that the sooner we can move forward. Everybody does or says things that could be considered racist. Whether that makes them a “racist” or not is just semantics. Personally, I’d say no, but getting caught up on the word is just missing the point.

The left saying that everybody can be racist doesn’t make them assholes, it just means they’re willing to put aside pride to expose a deeper, challenging truth. It doesn’t make them self righteous, it just makes them people who want to try to be better.

The left doesn’t claim that everyone can be racist. That is not even disputable. Of course a human can be racist.

The issue is when the left condemns all white people of a collective predujice based upon their race. That is racism. And white people who “admit” to their sins are not trying to improve. It’s pointless virtue signaling. And that’s the foundation of so many leftists counter arguments. “You just don’t care about poor people!” “You just don’t care about black people!”

It’s all a competition to see who can be more “accepting” and “culturally sensitive”.

darthrush said:

Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

darthrush said:

yhwx said:

Warbler said:

Meaning you’ve got biases that have been installed into you by decades of exposure to racist media, housing policies, schools, family, friends, etc. It’s a nice way of saying you’re racist, but using the broad definition that includes pretty much all Americans, and doesn’t mean you’re actively trying to perpetuate these things.

*sigh* 😐

Relevant.

For Christ’s sake.

Warbler has shown nothing that would make you think he is racist and to assume that someone is racist without any evidence is just awful. Half of this race talk is just virtue signaling from the left and does nothing to help solve issues in America.

Umm, I think the link was intended to criticize CatBus for calling Warbler racist. The video points out that we are all capable of occasionally doing a racist act, but that doesn’t necessarily mean we are a racist person.

Thanks for the clear up. Catbus, my last message was directed at you and every other self righteous asshole from the left.

I called pretty much all Americans racists in the sense that they are all tainted by growing up with racism, and should that into consideration when making decisions, and I included myself (and women, and minorities) in that. Self-righteous refers to someone who thinks they’re better than other people, not someone who thinks they’re equally culpable. Nevertheless, through this discussion, we have successfully identified a self-righteous asshole.

DominicCobb said:

No one wants to admit they’re wrong, no one likes to be less than perfect.

You know how the saying goes… nothing is so perfect…

Warbler said:

CatBus said:

Warbler said:

You mean put together a team that is half black, half white, half male, half female?

No, identity doesn’t predict bias.

It doesn’t would think it would be less likely that a black man would be biased against black people than a white man.

You’d think so. But there are plenty of cases where women can be the harshest judges of women, and so on. Throw identity politics out on the garbage heap where it belongs.