Politics 2: Electric Boogaloo — Page 356

darth_ender said:

chyron8472 said:

darth_ender said:

Warbler said:

Do you include me in your list of “self-righteous jerks”? You did say “I can’t engage with any of you.”.

I’m tired and irritable and not in the mood to put up with how liberals describe my views on abortion. You’re not part of that crowd. This thread is just not fun anymore, and this is why hardly post in it anymore.

Oh, shut up. We weren’t describing your views on abortion. We were discussing what labels regarding stance on abortion may (or may not) be more (or less) accurate in general, and our individual opinions of why they might or might not be accurate.

Now, instead of using liberal as an epithet and putting everyone of apparently opposing view in a box while complaining about how they put you in a box, why don’t you be an adult and actually try having an intelligent rational conversation.

I’m very sorry that I offended you by stating that the Left is overgeneralizing. How dare I broach such a sensitive topic with such callousness. I feel awful that I hurt your feelings!

Ryan McAvoy said:

yhwx said:

everybody likes choice

Not everybody. That’s the point isn’t it?

Jeebus said:

What about pro and anti-choice?

So if someone opposes abortion, that means they oppose choice? It doesn’t mean they hold life sacred from conception? It doesn’t mean they value the future of the child?

They oppose someone having the choice to abort.

CatBus said:

Warbler said:

But the point is, they start doing that before they even know they are transgendered. They don’t go “oh! I transgendered! Now let me see how everyone thinks girls should act and I will act like that”, I think it is more like they start out preferring girls and then realize later on that they are transgendered.

Sure. As far as they know (with the examples I know), they’re a girl and they have a penis. They’re not trans, they’re a girl.

Wait, I’m not allowed to a call a transgendered person, transgendered anymore? When did that happen?

And sure, they’ve heard adults say that boys have penises and girls don’t, but they can look down their own pants for proof the adult is wrong, QED. It’s not until they learn a little more about society works that they identify as trans. Until then they’re just a girl like any other girl.

And despite everyone trying brainwashing them with how people with penises should act and what they should like, they still end up liking girl things.

Also, some of the girls with penises like boy things. They’re tomboys. Trans tomboys.

but most “girls with penises” like girl things. A lot of the time, is that not usually the first sign to the parents that they are dealing with a “girl with a penis”?

It really has nothing to do with what activities you like, although there’s a large overlap.

disagree.

Jeebus said:

darth_ender said:

chyron8472 said:

darth_ender said:

Warbler said:

Do you include me in your list of “self-righteous jerks”? You did say “I can’t engage with any of you.”.

I’m tired and irritable and not in the mood to put up with how liberals describe my views on abortion. You’re not part of that crowd. This thread is just not fun anymore, and this is why hardly post in it anymore.

Oh, shut up. We weren’t describing your views on abortion. We were discussing what labels regarding stance on abortion may (or may not) be more (or less) accurate in general, and our individual opinions of why they might or might not be accurate.

Now, instead of using liberal as an epithet and putting everyone of apparently opposing view in a box while complaining about how they put you in a box, why don’t you be an adult and actually try having an intelligent rational conversation.

I’m very sorry that I offended you by stating that the Left is overgeneralizing. How dare I broach such a sensitive topic with such callousness. I feel awful that I hurt your feelings!

Ryan McAvoy said:

yhwx said:

everybody likes choice

Not everybody. That’s the point isn’t it?

Jeebus said:

What about pro and anti-choice?

So if someone opposes abortion, that means they oppose choice? It doesn’t mean they hold life sacred from conception? It doesn’t mean they value the future of the child?

They oppose someone having the choice to abort.

not in all cases. Some Pro-life people are for having the choice to abort for health reasons and/or in situations of rape.

chyron8472 said:

yhwx said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Is a boy more into sports because he has a penis or because his Dad liked sports and the other boys liked sports and they all looked down on him until he liked sports?

I’m guessing it’s the latter.

What about transgendered people? When they are young, aren’t they given the clothes and the toys of the gender everyone things they are and they sometimes reject them and prefer the toys and cloths of the other gender?

Often, yes.

Not sure what your point is, unless you’re just agreeing with me.

My point is that maybe there is something about what gender your brain is that affects what you like that don’t like. You said that maybe the only reason a boy likes sports is because his Dad did and how other boys would look down on him for not liking sports. If what you said is true, then a person born with the mind of girl but the body of a boy would still end up liking sports and the same would true of toys and clothes, yet we know it doesn’t work like that.

Newsflash: Some girls like football and Star Wars, some boys like My Little Pony Friendship is Magic. A person with the mind of a girl but the body of a boy absolutely can end up liking sports and “boy” toys and clothes. You may think it doesn’t work like that but I guarantee you are wrong.

Newsflash: More boys than girls like football and Star Wars, more girls than boys like My Little Pony Friendship is Magic. A person with mind of girl but the body of a boy tends to reject the boy clothes and toys the person is given and instead favors the girl cloths and toys the same is also true of sports. You may think it doesn’t work like that but I guarantee you are wrong.

Newsflash: Parents want their kids to conform to their preconceived stereotypes. If their kid is a boy, they’re more likely to try to get them to act like a boy. Kids see stereotypes of gender in media. They carry these throughout their life. Kids can also be bullied if they don’t like the “right” thing. You may think it doesn’t work like that but I guarantee you are wrong.

Do any of you have kids?

I am a father to a 2.5 year old daughter, and her preferences, while influenced by me, are so very obviously to me not altogether of my or my wife’s making. She likes pink. She likes yellow. But that’s not because we actively encourage it by pushing it on her. As a parent, I am learning how much of who God made her to be, as well as trying to train her in the ways I think is best for her.

As a parent, I grow increasingly annoyed at accusations that parents brainwash or wrongfully indoctrinate their kids.

I have two girls, 6 and 9. They love Star Wars and My Little Pony. I’m almost certain they only love Star Wars because my wife and I do as well.

CatBus said:

yhwx said:

CatBus said:

Warbler said:

But the point is, they start doing that before they even know they are transgendered. They don’t go “oh! I transgendered! Now let me see how everyone thinks girls should act and I will act like that”, I think it is more like they start out preferring girls and then realize later on that they are transgendered.

Sure. As far as they know (with the examples I know), they’re a girl and they have a penis. They’re not trans, they’re a girl. And sure, they’ve heard adults say that boys have penises and girls don’t, but they can look down their own pants for proof the adult is wrong, QED. It’s not until they learn a little more about society works that they identify as trans. Until then they’re just a girl like any other girl. Also, some of the girls with penises like boy things. They’re tomboys. Trans tomboys. It really has nothing to do with what activities you like, although there’s a large overlap.

I’m confused by this paragraph.

Most people are, thus the societal uproar. Basically boys who like girls things and girls who like boy things are not trans. If you think that’s what trans is, that’s the first problem. Trans is not a newfangled word for tomboy. It’s when you look like one sex (in terms of chromosomes, secondary physical attributes, etc), but feel at a deep level that you aren’t that sex. I’m not exactly how that feeling manifests internally, because I’m not trans. But basically to outsiders it’s when a little boy says he’s a girl and he’s not just having pretend-time. He consistently and always says he’s a girl. Not that he likes girl stuff, not that he wants to be a girl, but that he is a girl. That’s trans.

If you thought I was saying transgendered people are simply “boys who like girls things and girls who like boy things”, you are wrong. I believe that transgendered people are born with the body of one gender and the mind of the other gender.

CatBus said:

Warbler said:

CatBus said:

Warbler said:

But the point is, they start doing that before they even know they are transgendered. They don’t go “oh! I transgendered! Now let me see how everyone thinks girls should act and I will act like that”, I think it is more like they start out preferring girls and then realize later on that they are transgendered.

Sure. As far as they know (with the examples I know), they’re a girl and they have a penis. They’re not trans, they’re a girl.

Wait, I’m not allowed to a call a transgendered person, transgendered anymore? When did that happen?

Context. If you’re talking about a four-year-old trans child, they don’t have the vocabulary to say trans, but they do know boy and girl. It’s okay to use words children don’t understand, but don’t expect them to understand you.

And sure, they’ve heard adults say that boys have penises and girls don’t, but they can look down their own pants for proof the adult is wrong, QED. It’s not until they learn a little more about society works that they identify as trans. Until then they’re just a girl like any other girl.

And despite everyone trying brainwashing them with how people with penises should act and what they should like, they still end up liking girl things.

No, that’s the thing. There are very few penises in your average media or parental message to kids. The message is that boys do this and girls do this, and they by and large accept these messages. It’s just when someone tells them that only boys have penises that they roll their eyes because they’ve got the proof right there.

I am not so sure of that. I don’t think A four year old trans child realizes yet that they are a girl with penis. I think they are only realize that they are different from other boys and prefer girl things. I think they only realize they are a girl with penis when they are little bit older.

yhwx said:

I’ve heard the average male has very few penises.

?

TV’s Frink said:

chyron8472 said:

yhwx said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Is a boy more into sports because he has a penis or because his Dad liked sports and the other boys liked sports and they all looked down on him until he liked sports?

I’m guessing it’s the latter.

What about transgendered people? When they are young, aren’t they given the clothes and the toys of the gender everyone things they are and they sometimes reject them and prefer the toys and cloths of the other gender?

Often, yes.

Not sure what your point is, unless you’re just agreeing with me.

My point is that maybe there is something about what gender your brain is that affects what you like that don’t like. You said that maybe the only reason a boy likes sports is because his Dad did and how other boys would look down on him for not liking sports. If what you said is true, then a person born with the mind of girl but the body of a boy would still end up liking sports and the same would true of toys and clothes, yet we know it doesn’t work like that.

Newsflash: Some girls like football and Star Wars, some boys like My Little Pony Friendship is Magic. A person with the mind of a girl but the body of a boy absolutely can end up liking sports and “boy” toys and clothes. You may think it doesn’t work like that but I guarantee you are wrong.

Newsflash: More boys than girls like football and Star Wars, more girls than boys like My Little Pony Friendship is Magic. A person with mind of girl but the body of a boy tends to reject the boy clothes and toys the person is given and instead favors the girl cloths and toys the same is also true of sports. You may think it doesn’t work like that but I guarantee you are wrong.

Newsflash: Parents want their kids to conform to their preconceived stereotypes. If their kid is a boy, they’re more likely to try to get them to act like a boy. Kids see stereotypes of gender in media. They carry these throughout their life. Kids can also be bullied if they don’t like the “right” thing. You may think it doesn’t work like that but I guarantee you are wrong.

Do any of you have kids?

I am a father to a 2.5 year old daughter, and her preferences, while influenced by me, are so very obviously to me not altogether of my or my wife’s making. She likes pink. She likes yellow. But that’s not because we actively encourage it by pushing it on her. As a parent, I am learning how much of who God made her to be, as well as trying to train her in the ways I think is best for her.

As a parent, I grow increasingly annoyed at accusations that parents brainwash or wrongfully indoctrinate their kids.

I have two girls, 6 and 9. They love Star Wars and My Little Pony. I’m almost certain they only love Star Wars because my wife and I do as well.

Are you sure it has nothing to do with Stars Wars being a good movie?

darth_ender said:

Pro-life is a distortion? Are you telling me that those who choose the label ‘pro-life’ are not accurately in favor of life? And let me ask here, how many of the pro-choice crowd have said at least once in a recent discussion about abortion that those who oppose it are somehow opposed to women (i.e. War on Women, want to keep women in the kitchen, etc.)? Is that not a distortion?

If you say you are pro-life, and you care about more than ridding the world of abortions, I believe you. But I never hear about solutions from the vocal side of the pro-life argument. All I hear is “ban all abortions” and I hear nothing about what comes next. Those are the people who are distorting the term “pro-life” when it really just means “anti-abortion.”

TV’s Frink said:

moviefreakedmind said:

As for pro-life being a rightwing distortion, I don’t necessarily see how. It’s technically accurate.

The right does not support life as much as they are against abortion. Hence anti-abortion being more accurate.

Here’s another example - Republicans (in general) favor tax breaks that favor the rich while pulling government support from the poor. They care about making sure a fetus comes to term, but then don’t care at all what happens after it is born. That’s not pro-life either, that’s anti-abortion.

Is that not an oversimplification? Is there really this belief that Republicans are just out to punish the poor? Even if you oppose fiscal conservatism, it seems wrong to me to ascribe motives like not caring how the child fares after birth. I am more moderate than most conservatives and favor more social programs than your average Republican, but nevertheless, are you not generalizing that most who oppose abortion and favor individuals and families taking more personal responsibility for their economic well-being are really “not caring” about how the child does after birth?

Sure, I’m generalizing, but you said it yourself - you favor more social programs than average Republicans. The Republican/Conservative motto, and correct me if I’m wrong, is as limited a government as possible. People who are truly pro-life should want to limit unwanted births as much as possible (including sex-ed and contraception, not just abstinence only) and should be as passionate (if not more so) about helping the needy as stopping abortion. Do they only want to stop the poor single raped mother from having an abortion, or do they also want to help her after she gives birth?

I thought that if a group chooses to identify by a certain term, that is their right to choose. I am pro-life. Most conservatives, even the overzealous Evangelical brand, care a great deal about people from conception until death. I’ve seen stereotypes in this thread about how every conservative belief is motivated by sexism or racism or socioeconomic superiority. Most of them are good people who think they are doing what is best for the general populace. I get just as irritated at them when I hear stupid generalizations about liberals.

Perhaps I’m wrong, but all I hear overzealous Evangelical brand of conservatives doing is trying to end every single abortion regardless of impact or context, and putting way more emphasis on that then what to do with all the unwanted babies.

yhwx said:

Warbler said:

CatBus said:

Warbler said:

CatBus said:

Warbler said:

But the point is, they start doing that before they even know they are transgendered. They don’t go “oh! I transgendered! Now let me see how everyone thinks girls should act and I will act like that”, I think it is more like they start out preferring girls and then realize later on that they are transgendered.

Sure. As far as they know (with the examples I know), they’re a girl and they have a penis. They’re not trans, they’re a girl.

Wait, I’m not allowed to a call a transgendered person, transgendered anymore? When did that happen?

Context. If you’re talking about a four-year-old trans child, they don’t have the vocabulary to say trans, but they do know boy and girl. It’s okay to use words children don’t understand, but don’t expect them to understand you.

And sure, they’ve heard adults say that boys have penises and girls don’t, but they can look down their own pants for proof the adult is wrong, QED. It’s not until they learn a little more about society works that they identify as trans. Until then they’re just a girl like any other girl.

And despite everyone trying brainwashing them with how people with penises should act and what they should like, they still end up liking girl things.

No, that’s the thing. There are very few penises in your average media or parental message to kids. The message is that boys do this and girls do this, and they by and large accept these messages. It’s just when someone tells them that only boys have penises that they roll their eyes because they’ve got the proof right there.

I am not so sure of that. I don’t think A four year old trans child realizes yet that they are a girl with penis. I think they are only realize that they are different from other boys and prefer girl things. I think they only realize they are a girl with penis when they are little bit older.

From the sounds of it, CatBus has “dealt” with these children before. Therefore, what you think is moot.

bullshit. this is exactly the kind of attitude that pissed off Darth Ender off.

If CatBus has in fact dealt with transgendered children, I would interested to learn what I could from him and I would agree he knows more about the subject than I do, but it doesn’t make I think moot.

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

chyron8472 said:

yhwx said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Is a boy more into sports because he has a penis or because his Dad liked sports and the other boys liked sports and they all looked down on him until he liked sports?

I’m guessing it’s the latter.

What about transgendered people? When they are young, aren’t they given the clothes and the toys of the gender everyone things they are and they sometimes reject them and prefer the toys and cloths of the other gender?

Often, yes.

Not sure what your point is, unless you’re just agreeing with me.

My point is that maybe there is something about what gender your brain is that affects what you like that don’t like. You said that maybe the only reason a boy likes sports is because his Dad did and how other boys would look down on him for not liking sports. If what you said is true, then a person born with the mind of girl but the body of a boy would still end up liking sports and the same would true of toys and clothes, yet we know it doesn’t work like that.

Newsflash: Some girls like football and Star Wars, some boys like My Little Pony Friendship is Magic. A person with the mind of a girl but the body of a boy absolutely can end up liking sports and “boy” toys and clothes. You may think it doesn’t work like that but I guarantee you are wrong.

Newsflash: More boys than girls like football and Star Wars, more girls than boys like My Little Pony Friendship is Magic. A person with mind of girl but the body of a boy tends to reject the boy clothes and toys the person is given and instead favors the girl cloths and toys the same is also true of sports. You may think it doesn’t work like that but I guarantee you are wrong.

Newsflash: Parents want their kids to conform to their preconceived stereotypes. If their kid is a boy, they’re more likely to try to get them to act like a boy. Kids see stereotypes of gender in media. They carry these throughout their life. Kids can also be bullied if they don’t like the “right” thing. You may think it doesn’t work like that but I guarantee you are wrong.

Do any of you have kids?

I am a father to a 2.5 year old daughter, and her preferences, while influenced by me, are so very obviously to me not altogether of my or my wife’s making. She likes pink. She likes yellow. But that’s not because we actively encourage it by pushing it on her. As a parent, I am learning how much of who God made her to be, as well as trying to train her in the ways I think is best for her.

As a parent, I grow increasingly annoyed at accusations that parents brainwash or wrongfully indoctrinate their kids.

I have two girls, 6 and 9. They love Star Wars and My Little Pony. I’m almost certain they only love Star Wars because my wife and I do as well.

Are you sure it has nothing to do with Stars Wars being a good movie?

It doesn’t matter how good or bad a movie is if you don’t know anything about it. They only watched it the first time because we showed it to them.

Kids tend to have a difficult time distinguishing goods movies/TV from bad and often end up liking both in equal measure, unironically. I know; I was a kid once.

yhwx said:

Warbler said:

yhwx said:

Warbler said:

CatBus said:

Warbler said:

CatBus said:

Warbler said:

But the point is, they start doing that before they even know they are transgendered. They don’t go “oh! I transgendered! Now let me see how everyone thinks girls should act and I will act like that”, I think it is more like they start out preferring girls and then realize later on that they are transgendered.

Sure. As far as they know (with the examples I know), they’re a girl and they have a penis. They’re not trans, they’re a girl.

Wait, I’m not allowed to a call a transgendered person, transgendered anymore? When did that happen?

Context. If you’re talking about a four-year-old trans child, they don’t have the vocabulary to say trans, but they do know boy and girl. It’s okay to use words children don’t understand, but don’t expect them to understand you.

And sure, they’ve heard adults say that boys have penises and girls don’t, but they can look down their own pants for proof the adult is wrong, QED. It’s not until they learn a little more about society works that they identify as trans. Until then they’re just a girl like any other girl.

And despite everyone trying brainwashing them with how people with penises should act and what they should like, they still end up liking girl things.

No, that’s the thing. There are very few penises in your average media or parental message to kids. The message is that boys do this and girls do this, and they by and large accept these messages. It’s just when someone tells them that only boys have penises that they roll their eyes because they’ve got the proof right there.

I am not so sure of that. I don’t think A four year old trans child realizes yet that they are a girl with penis. I think they are only realize that they are different from other boys and prefer girl things. I think they only realize they are a girl with penis when they are little bit older.

From the sounds of it, CatBus has “dealt” with these children before. Therefore, what you think is moot.

bullshit. this is exactly the kind of attitude that pissed off Darth Ender off.

If CatBus has in fact dealt with transgendered children, I would interested to learn what I could from him and I would agree he knows more about the subject than I do, but it doesn’t make I think moot.

CatBus said:

That said, I know some trans kids.

knowing some trans kids, doesn’t necessarily make one an expert on the subject. How well does he know them? How many? How much time has he spent with them?

That said, I am willing accept that he knows more than I do, but it still does not necessarily make what I think moot.