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provide examples of what is wrong, like Catbus did, and what we can do to solve it. It would be a lot less frustrating and a lot more productive.
I agree with this, provide examples. People want to say that I’m clueless about this because I am white. So provide examples to this clueless white guy and then maybe I won’t be so clueless anymore. Show more than just some stats.
Stats are examples.
The sooner people in general can accept that they may have blindspots the better. I don’t know if it’s culture or human nature or a combination of both but people (in particular white men) don’t seem to either want to admit to being part of a problem or acknowledging a problem that doesn’t affect them and that they can’t see in their daily life. Basically, people don’t like being wrong. (I can sympathize.)
The truth is, if you’re a white man (as I am), you don’t experience institutional racism/sexism. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. You can either accept this fact and look outside of your own bubble for evidence as to where and how and why and to what extent, or you can retreat back and proclaim that white privilege can’t possibly exist and that anyone complaining about problems that you don’t personally experience are just making things up.
If you want to be more understanding of the world around you and more empathetic towards your fellow humans, you can seek out the information. Otherwise, you can continue about your business - it won’t affect you any, obviously, but just know that to some extent you will be part of the problem.
Do you always have to be so self-righteous? Condemning a group for being awful and that they have no problems won’t win any of their suppport, this is partly why the Clinton campaign did not do as well as it should have. Instead of saying “You’re evil” or whatever, provide examples of what is wrong, like Catbus did, and what we can do to solve it. It would be a lot less frustrating and a lot more productive.
This is the kind of shit that makes it impossible to reach a point of understanding.
I asked for examples. Fuck off.
This is the kind of shit that makes it impossible to reach a point of understanding.
Being belligerent isn’t exactly the most inviting behavior for a reasoned discussion.
You’re only serving to prove my thesis that white dudes retreat back to their bubbles and overreact when their views are challenged.
But you haven’t challenged anything. I asked for more and you retreated. You did nothing but show condescending behavior, which rightly pissed me off. Nothing you have said is substantial in any way other than to put yourself on a pedestal.
You’re only serving to prove my thesis that white dudes retreat back to their bubbles and overreact when their views are challenged.
“you’re white”
“you’re male”
“you’re privileged”
“you’re part of the problem”
“you won’t admit to being part of the problem”
just who has been making “many accusations”?
Aren’t you white?
Aren’t you male?
If yes to either (or both!) then yes you’re privileged. As am I. As are a significant percentage of people here.
I wouldn’t say you’re part of the problem, however. None of what we’re doing here (talking on a Star Wars forum) will make a difference one way or the other. None of us is part of the problem (or solution!) unless we’re actually doing something other than talking into the internet box.
I’d do something about it but I’m old, tired, busy, lazy, male, and white. Which I guess technically means I’m part of the problem since I’m not doing anything to be part of the solution.
So scratch everything I just said, you’re part of the problem. As am I.
No individual person is a part of the problem. But the problem is of a group, which is made up of individual people.
You’re only serving to prove my thesis that white dudes retreat back to their bubbles and overreact when their views are challenged.
Knock it off.
No individual person is a part of the problem.
Yeah, that’s not true.
The sooner people in general can accept that they may have blindspots the better. I don’t know if it’s culture or human nature or a combination of both but people (in particular white men) don’t seem to either want to admit to being part of a problem or acknowledging a problem that doesn’t affect them and that they can’t see in their daily life. Basically, people don’t like being wrong. (I can sympathize.)
The truth is, if you’re a white man (as I am), you don’t experience institutional racism/sexism. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. You can either accept this fact and look outside of your own bubble for evidence as to where and how and why and to what extent, or you can retreat back and proclaim that white privilege can’t possibly exist and that anyone complaining about problems that you don’t personally experience are just making things up.
If you want to be more understanding of the world around you and more empathetic towards your fellow humans, you can seek out the information. Otherwise, you can continue about your business - it won’t affect you any, obviously, but just know that to some extent you will be part of the problem.
Do you always have to be so self-righteous? Condemning a group for being awful and that they have no problems won’t win any of their suppport, this is partly why the Clinton campaign did not do as well as it should have. Instead of saying “You’re evil” or whatever, provide examples of what is wrong, like Catbus did, and what we can do to solve it. It would be a lot less frustrating and a lot more productive.
This is the kind of shit that makes it impossible to reach a point of understanding.
I asked for examples. Fuck off.
This is the kind of shit that makes it impossible to reach a point of understanding.
Being belligerent isn’t exactly the most inviting behavior for a reasoned discussion.
You’re only serving to prove my thesis that white dudes retreat back to their bubbles and overreact when their views are challenged.
But you haven’t challenged anything. I asked for more and you retreated. You did nothing but show condescending behavior, which rightly pissed me off. Nothing you have said is substantial in any way other than to put yourself on a pedestal.
No individual person is a part of the problem.
Yeah, that’s not true.
You’re correct. I should have written:
Most of the time, individual people are not a part of the problem (but some are!). But the problem is a group made up of individual people. One person can make a difference, even if it is small, to the whole.
No individual person is a part of the problem.
Yeah, that’s not true.
You’re correct.
What I always read.
You’re only serving to prove my thesis that white dudes retreat back to their bubbles and overreact when their views are challenged.
Knock it off.
Jeez, I just quoted a post on a Star Wars forum, I didn’t say that I hate your pet kittens.
I think I’ve said this before but I think it bears repeating: the word racism means different things to different people. When discussing this topic, it’s pretty normal for some white people to recoil the second the word starts to touch them personally. Because racism, to them, is overt acts, conscious choices, hateful feelings, much more personal. But to others, racism is woven into the fabric of America, much more institutional. If you were born and raised here, you’ve already got some on you. The only question is: what are you going to do about it?
When Michelle Obama said she raised her daughters in a house built by slaves, that was a much more poignant way of saying she got some on her. The more important question is what is she doing about it?
“you’re white”
“you’re male”
“you’re privileged”
“you’re part of the problem”
“you won’t admit to being part of the problem”
just who has been making “many accusations”?
Aren’t you white?
Aren’t you male?
If yes to either (or both!) then yes you’re privileged. As am I. As are a significant percentage of people here.
I wouldn’t even really have a problem if you left it at, “You receive certain benefits for being white or a man,” whatever those benefits are, but to just say that “you’re privileged” completely disregards his entire life experience, which you’re supposedly all about listening to. You don’t know if the person you’re talking to is an orphan, is bankrupt, has AIDS, is mentally ill, got laid off, is a drug addict, has a terminally ill spouse or child etc. etc. I’d say that those things, to name a few, would definitely mean that someone is not privileged, even if they are white or male. If you just assume that someone’s privileged based on their race, gender, and nothing else, then you’re likely to piss people off.
The Person in Question
The sooner people in general can accept that they may have blindspots the better. I don’t know if it’s culture or human nature or a combination of both but people (in particular white men) don’t seem to either want to admit to being part of a problem or acknowledging a problem that doesn’t affect them and that they can’t see in their daily life. Basically, people don’t like being wrong. (I can sympathize.)
The truth is, if you’re a white man (as I am), you don’t experience institutional racism/sexism. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. You can either accept this fact and look outside of your own bubble for evidence as to where and how and why and to what extent, or you can retreat back and proclaim that white privilege can’t possibly exist and that anyone complaining about problems that you don’t personally experience are just making things up.
If you want to be more understanding of the world around you and more empathetic towards your fellow humans, you can seek out the information. Otherwise, you can continue about your business - it won’t affect you any, obviously, but just know that to some extent you will be part of the problem.
Do you always have to be so self-righteous? Condemning a group for being awful and that they have no problems won’t win any of their suppport, this is partly why the Clinton campaign did not do as well as it should have. Instead of saying “You’re evil” or whatever, provide examples of what is wrong, like Catbus did, and what we can do to solve it. It would be a lot less frustrating and a lot more productive.
This is the kind of shit that makes it impossible to reach a point of understanding.
I asked for examples. Fuck off.
This is the kind of shit that makes it impossible to reach a point of understanding.
Being belligerent isn’t exactly the most inviting behavior for a reasoned discussion.
You’re only serving to prove my thesis that white dudes retreat back to their bubbles and overreact when their views are challenged.
But you haven’t challenged anything. I asked for more and you retreated. You did nothing but show condescending behavior, which rightly pissed me off. Nothing you have said is substantial in any way other than to put yourself on a pedestal.
I have not called you out. I was not talking about you specifically or really about anyone specifically here. I was speaking generally, though this tends to be the issue. It is not hard to parse generalized statements. That’s why the phrase “not all men” is such an eye roller. Though the fact that you responded in the way you did does tell me I hit a nerve.
I have not used any of the words you claim I did. Nowhere did I call anyone “evil,” despite what your quotation marks would suggest. Nowhere did I “condemn a group for being awful.” Nowhere did I call anyone an asshole (though your behavior is testing my patience in that regard). Nowhere did I say people like you are the problem (just that you can be a part of it to an extent if you aren’t willing to listen).
This goes back to why I shut down before with Warbler and mfm. If you guys are going to twist my words and make me into some sort of self righteous justice warrior condemning all the white men in the thread for being evil, I don’t know how I can reason with you. I don’t try to be condescending but it’s hard not to when you’re acting like children. If you can’t actually interact with the actual words I’m using, then I don’t entirely believe we’re on the same level to have an intelligent discussion.
Again, I don’t want to be condescending, but please read the post I made that set you off again:
The sooner people in general can accept that they may have blindspots the better. I don’t know if it’s culture or human nature or a combination of both but people (in particular white men) don’t seem to either want to admit to being part of a problem or acknowledging a problem that doesn’t affect them and that they can’t see in their daily life. Basically, people don’t like being wrong. (I can sympathize.)
The truth is, if you’re a white man (as I am), you don’t experience institutional racism/sexism. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. You can either accept this fact and look outside of your own bubble for evidence as to where and how and why and to what extent, or you can retreat back and proclaim that white privilege can’t possibly exist and that anyone complaining about problems that you don’t personally experience are just making things up.
If you want to be more understanding of the world around you and more empathetic towards your fellow humans, you can seek out the information. Otherwise, you can continue about your business - it won’t affect you any, obviously, but just know that to some extent you will be part of the problem.
If this posts sounds patronizing then I apologize, my aim was more to be clinical. I’m not attacking you or anyone else personally, in fact right off the bat I put the blame on culture and/or human nature. People don’t like being wrong. I’m the same way. When people have their worldview challenged, they bristle and retreat. I was the same way at first. All my point ever was in that post was to say the next step is as simple as being able to listen to views that challenge your own, and investigate experiences that differ from your own. It’s so easy to find examples online. So easy. I can sit here and google and show you all of them. But that’s not going to make a difference if you’re not willing to listen (and let me be clear, your attitude thus far tells me you clearly are not). If you’re actually interested in finding examples, you can seek them out yourself. If not, feel free to go about your business, as I said.
Catbus is wise.
Catbus is wise.
That’s a euphemism for “old”, isn’t it?
I think I’ve said this before but I think it bears repeating: the word racism means different things to different people. When discussing this topic, it’s pretty normal for some white people to recoil the second the word starts to touch them personally. Because racism, to them, is overt acts, conscious choices, hateful feelings, much more personal. But to others, racism is woven into the fabric of America, much more institutional. If you were born and raised here, you’ve already got some on you. The only question is: what are you going to do about it?
When Michelle Obama said she raised her daughters in a house built by slaves, that was a much more poignant way of saying she got some on her. The more important question is what is she doing about it?
The funny thing is I haven’t even called anyone racist. All I said in that regard was essentially that some people won’t admit racism still exists.
“you’re white”
“you’re male”
“you’re privileged”
“you’re part of the problem”
“you won’t admit to being part of the problem”
just who has been making “many accusations”?
Aren’t you white?
Aren’t you male?
If yes to either (or both!) then yes you’re privileged. As am I. As are a significant percentage of people here.
I wouldn’t even really have a problem if you left it at, “You receive certain benefits for being white or a man,” whatever those benefits are, but to just say that “you’re privileged” completely disregards his entire life experience, which you’re supposedly all about listening to. You don’t know if the person you’re talking to is an orphan, is bankrupt, has AIDS, is mentally ill, got laid off, is a drug addict, has a terminally ill spouse or child etc. etc. I’d say that those things, to name a few, would definitely mean that someone is not privileged, even if they are white or male. If you just assume that someone’s privileged based on their race, gender, and nothing else, then you’re likely to piss people off.
Just because you’re privileged doesn’t mean you’ve got a good life. It simply means that you have certain advantages by being a white straight male etc whatever.
A black man and a white man can both have AIDS but the black man is more likely to get attention from police for doing nothing. There’s the privilege. The white man can still die in the gutter the next day. Hell, the white man can still be hassled by the police for doing nothing. But it’s more likely to happen to the black man because he’s not white.
So yeah, when I think of “privilege” I’m just thinking of someone getting benefits because of how they were born. You guys shouldn’t take it so personally, because most of us are privileged in some way.
Catbus is wise.
So is Dom.
“you’re white”
“you’re male”
“you’re privileged”
“you’re part of the problem”
“you won’t admit to being part of the problem”
just who has been making “many accusations”?
Aren’t you white?
Aren’t you male?
If yes to either (or both!) then yes you’re privileged. As am I. As are a significant percentage of people here.
I wouldn’t even really have a problem if you left it at, “You receive certain benefits for being white or a man,” whatever those benefits are, but to just say that “you’re privileged” completely disregards his entire life experience, which you’re supposedly all about listening to. You don’t know if the person you’re talking to is an orphan, is bankrupt, has AIDS, is mentally ill, got laid off, is a drug addict, has a terminally ill spouse or child etc. etc. I’d say that those things, to name a few, would definitely mean that someone is not privileged, even if they are white or male. If you just assume that someone’s privileged based on their race, gender, and nothing else, then you’re likely to piss people off.
Calling someone privileged doesn’t mean they’re privileged in every way. Far from it. You can have some privileges and not others. The term “white privilege” does not mean white people are completely privileged in all ways, just in racial ways. I’d argue that’s why the “white” codifier is there in the first place.
All my point ever was in that post was to say the next step is as simple as being able to listen to views that challenge your own, and investigate experiences that differ from your own. It’s so easy to find examples online. So easy. I can sit here and google and show you all of them.
And I already did that for him.
The sooner people in general can accept that they may have blindspots the better. I don’t know if it’s culture or human nature or a combination of both but people (in particular white men) don’t seem to either want to admit to being part of a problem or acknowledging a problem that doesn’t affect them and that they can’t see in their daily life. Basically, people don’t like being wrong. (I can sympathize.)
The truth is, if you’re a white man (as I am), you don’t experience institutional racism/sexism. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. You can either accept this fact and look outside of your own bubble for evidence as to where and how and why and to what extent, or you can retreat back and proclaim that white privilege can’t possibly exist and that anyone complaining about problems that you don’t personally experience are just making things up.
If you want to be more understanding of the world around you and more empathetic towards your fellow humans, you can seek out the information. Otherwise, you can continue about your business - it won’t affect you any, obviously, but just know that to some extent you will be part of the problem.
Do you always have to be so self-righteous? Condemning a group for being awful and that they have no problems won’t win any of their suppport, this is partly why the Clinton campaign did not do as well as it should have. Instead of saying “You’re evil” or whatever, provide examples of what is wrong, like Catbus did, and what we can do to solve it. It would be a lot less frustrating and a lot more productive.
This is the kind of shit that makes it impossible to reach a point of understanding.
I asked for examples. Fuck off.
This is the kind of shit that makes it impossible to reach a point of understanding.
Being belligerent isn’t exactly the most inviting behavior for a reasoned discussion.
You’re only serving to prove my thesis that white dudes retreat back to their bubbles and overreact when their views are challenged.
But you haven’t challenged anything. I asked for more and you retreated. You did nothing but show condescending behavior, which rightly pissed me off. Nothing you have said is substantial in any way other than to put yourself on a pedestal.
I have not called you out. I was not talking about you specifically or really about anyone specifically here. I was speaking generally, though this tends to be the issue. It is not hard to parse generalized statements. That’s why the phrase “not all men” is such an eye roller. Though the fact that you responded in the way you did does tell me I hit a nerve.
I have not used any of the words you claim I did. Nowhere did I call anyone “evil,” despite what your quotation marks would suggest. Nowhere did I “condemn a group for being awful.” Nowhere did I call anyone an asshole (though your behavior is testing my patience in that regard). Nowhere did I say people like you are the problem (just that you can be a part of it to an extent if you aren’t willing to listen).
This goes back to why I shut down before with Warbler and mfm. If you guys are going to twist my words and make me into some sort of self righteous justice warrior condemning all the white men in the thread for being evil, I don’t know how I can reason with you. I don’t try to be condescending but it’s hard not to when you’re acting like children. If you can’t actually interact with the actual words I’m using, then I don’t entirely believe we’re on the same level to have an intelligent discussion.
Again, I don’t want to be condescending, but please read the post I made that set you off again:
The sooner people in general can accept that they may have blindspots the better. I don’t know if it’s culture or human nature or a combination of both but people (in particular white men) don’t seem to either want to admit to being part of a problem or acknowledging a problem that doesn’t affect them and that they can’t see in their daily life. Basically, people don’t like being wrong. (I can sympathize.)
The truth is, if you’re a white man (as I am), you don’t experience institutional racism/sexism. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. You can either accept this fact and look outside of your own bubble for evidence as to where and how and why and to what extent, or you can retreat back and proclaim that white privilege can’t possibly exist and that anyone complaining about problems that you don’t personally experience are just making things up.
If you want to be more understanding of the world around you and more empathetic towards your fellow humans, you can seek out the information. Otherwise, you can continue about your business - it won’t affect you any, obviously, but just know that to some extent you will be part of the problem.
If this posts sounds patronizing then I apologize, my aim was more to be clinical. I’m not attacking you or anyone else personally, in fact right off the bat I put the blame on culture and/or human nature. People don’t like being wrong. I’m the same way. When people have their worldview challenged, they bristle and retreat. I was the same way at first. All my point ever was in that post was to say the next step is as simple as being able to listen to views that challenge your own, and investigate experiences that differ from your own. It’s so easy to find examples online. So easy. I can sit here and google and show you all of them. But that’s not going to make a difference if you’re not willing to listen (and let me be clear, your attitude thus far tells me you clearly are not). If you’re actually interested in finding examples, you can seek them out yourself. If not, feel free to go about your business, as I said.
This is what I was asking for in my initial post, further explanation, and I’m glad you took the time to do so. I didn’t mean to be so abrasive but when I was given a requote it just set me off. So, sorry about that. I don’t wish to continue to fight about it and hope we can find some more common ground in the future. My objection was more to the tone and the way you were expressing your ideas rather than to any specific idea presented.
Patience is a virtue.
Patience is
Stopped reading there, sorry.
The sooner people in general can accept that they may have blindspots the better. I don’t know if it’s culture or human nature or a combination of both but people (in particular white men) don’t seem to either want to admit to being part of a problem or acknowledging a problem that doesn’t affect them and that they can’t see in their daily life. Basically, people don’t like being wrong. (I can sympathize.)
The truth is, if you’re a white man (as I am), you don’t experience institutional racism/sexism. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. You can either accept this fact and look outside of your own bubble for evidence as to where and how and why and to what extent, or you can retreat back and proclaim that white privilege can’t possibly exist and that anyone complaining about problems that you don’t personally experience are just making things up.
If you want to be more understanding of the world around you and more empathetic towards your fellow humans, you can seek out the information. Otherwise, you can continue about your business - it won’t affect you any, obviously, but just know that to some extent you will be part of the problem.
Do you always have to be so self-righteous? Condemning a group for being awful and that they have no problems won’t win any of their suppport, this is partly why the Clinton campaign did not do as well as it should have. Instead of saying “You’re evil” or whatever, provide examples of what is wrong, like Catbus did, and what we can do to solve it. It would be a lot less frustrating and a lot more productive.
This is the kind of shit that makes it impossible to reach a point of understanding.
I asked for examples. Fuck off.
This is the kind of shit that makes it impossible to reach a point of understanding.
Being belligerent isn’t exactly the most inviting behavior for a reasoned discussion.
You’re only serving to prove my thesis that white dudes retreat back to their bubbles and overreact when their views are challenged.
But you haven’t challenged anything. I asked for more and you retreated. You did nothing but show condescending behavior, which rightly pissed me off. Nothing you have said is substantial in any way other than to put yourself on a pedestal.
I have not called you out. I was not talking about you specifically or really about anyone specifically here. I was speaking generally, though this tends to be the issue. It is not hard to parse generalized statements. That’s why the phrase “not all men” is such an eye roller. Though the fact that you responded in the way you did does tell me I hit a nerve.
I have not used any of the words you claim I did. Nowhere did I call anyone “evil,” despite what your quotation marks would suggest. Nowhere did I “condemn a group for being awful.” Nowhere did I call anyone an asshole (though your behavior is testing my patience in that regard). Nowhere did I say people like you are the problem (just that you can be a part of it to an extent if you aren’t willing to listen).
This goes back to why I shut down before with Warbler and mfm. If you guys are going to twist my words and make me into some sort of self righteous justice warrior condemning all the white men in the thread for being evil, I don’t know how I can reason with you. I don’t try to be condescending but it’s hard not to when you’re acting like children. If you can’t actually interact with the actual words I’m using, then I don’t entirely believe we’re on the same level to have an intelligent discussion.
Again, I don’t want to be condescending, but please read the post I made that set you off again:
The sooner people in general can accept that they may have blindspots the better. I don’t know if it’s culture or human nature or a combination of both but people (in particular white men) don’t seem to either want to admit to being part of a problem or acknowledging a problem that doesn’t affect them and that they can’t see in their daily life. Basically, people don’t like being wrong. (I can sympathize.)
The truth is, if you’re a white man (as I am), you don’t experience institutional racism/sexism. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. You can either accept this fact and look outside of your own bubble for evidence as to where and how and why and to what extent, or you can retreat back and proclaim that white privilege can’t possibly exist and that anyone complaining about problems that you don’t personally experience are just making things up.
If you want to be more understanding of the world around you and more empathetic towards your fellow humans, you can seek out the information. Otherwise, you can continue about your business - it won’t affect you any, obviously, but just know that to some extent you will be part of the problem.
If this posts sounds patronizing then I apologize, my aim was more to be clinical. I’m not attacking you or anyone else personally, in fact right off the bat I put the blame on culture and/or human nature. People don’t like being wrong. I’m the same way. When people have their worldview challenged, they bristle and retreat. I was the same way at first. All my point ever was in that post was to say the next step is as simple as being able to listen to views that challenge your own, and investigate experiences that differ from your own. It’s so easy to find examples online. So easy. I can sit here and google and show you all of them. But that’s not going to make a difference if you’re not willing to listen (and let me be clear, your attitude thus far tells me you clearly are not). If you’re actually interested in finding examples, you can seek them out yourself. If not, feel free to go about your business, as I said.
This is what I was asking for in my initial post, further explanation, and I’m glad you took the time to do so. I didn’t mean to be so abrasive but when I was given a requote it just set me off. So, sorry about that. I don’t wish to continue to fight about it and hope we can find some common ground in the future.
I appreciate the change of tone, I really do. I wasn’t trying to be dicky with the requote but it just frustrates me when others read into things that aren’t there, makes it hard to properly engage (and I should say I’m as guilty of it as anyone).